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  1. #51
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    Jul 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grrr View Post
    Unlike some of the cynics on this thread, I am all for 'green' energy saving measures to make homes more energy efficient and better insulated.

    However, I have a problem with this "Green Deal". I just don't see the benefit of using the scheme. As a landlord I am encouraged to tag on any costs (ie the loan) to an electricity bill where tenants are left paying it off, but apparently not paying any more than they would have been before the improvements were made.

    This might (just) be acceptable for the current tenants, but what about the next tenants or the next lot after that? They will see a property which will (presumably) have a reasonably good energy performance rating on the EPC, but they will be asked to pay the bills as if it had a lower rating. They'll be consuming lower energy, but paying higher bills. Where is the fairness in that? If I were the tenant I would look elsewhere.

    Likewise, when I come to sell the property, if there is still an amount outstanding to be paid off from the Green Deal loan, it transfers to the new owner for them to continue paying. Hands up any buyers here who would agree to keep paying charges for improvements made on a property undertaken some years before? Again - I certainly wouldn't. I'd insist that the vendor paid off any loans before I agreed to buy the property.

    So I'd be very keen to know why I should bother with the green deal. Anyone?

    As a footnote to this, I am very disappointed in the NLA (National Landlords Association) for promoting the Green Deal when it clearly is NOT beneficial to Landlords (unless someone can explain to me why it is). I note the NLA are about to launch an "NLA Green Deal" product which to my mind immediately taints their ability to be objective and genuinely look out for their members' interests.


    Grrr
    Valid points. I'd be interested to hear Ecodave's view on them.
    How is education supposed to make me feel smarter? Besides, every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home winemaking course, and I forgot how to drive? Homer Simpson

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    507

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    Eco Dave has left the building

  3. #53

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    Not left the building, just watching. Had gotten a little tired of repeating myself, am sure you all were getting bored of me also.

    In response to Grrr's main point I would point out that there should be a net benefit to taking out a green deal loan, and that benefit will be felt by successive tenants. If the total of the fuel bills + the GD charge is less after the GD compared to before, then the tenant is a winner, no? I appreciate that its a relative concept for future tenants, but, as fuel bills continue upwards, these concepts will become better understood. The EPC, which we all accept is largely ignored at the moment, will become a signpost towards cheaper bills. See the attached regarding how a buffer zone is built into the Golden Rule calculation.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ls-golden-rule

    I'm not sure that you are right when you say that tenants won't pay for previous renovations. Don't they do this currently in higher rental charges? If you renovated your property and made it cheaper to live in, wouldn't you expect to be able to charge more for it?

    With regards to property values, I think a houses value is made up of many aspects. If I got a green deal for £5k to improve my house just before putting it on the market, does it make it worth any more money? No. Not one penny. If I hadn't had this work done, the incoming purchaser could have looked at the old boiler and used that as a bargaining tool, knocking a couple of grand off the price. It's not as cut and dried as many are putting it, but I agree in the early years, whilst the concepts are not understood, it could be problematic.

  4. #54
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    Nov 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoDave View Post
    If I got a green deal for £5k to improve my house just before putting it on the market, does it make it worth any more money? No. Not one penny. If I hadn't had this work done, the incoming purchaser could have looked at the old boiler and used that as a bargaining tool, knocking a couple of grand off the price.
    IMO, if a seller does some 'improvements' with a green deal right before putting the house on market, buyers should still use that as a bargaining tool, if only to cover themselves:
    - improvement was obviously done to try to inflate asking price,
    - seller has no interest in the improvement, so quality and effectiveness should be questioned,
    - actual savings cannot be proven,
    - buyer will bear full cost of improvement, plus potentially high interest rates.

    Indeed value should be no more than without improvement. Actually because of risks above I would even try to get a discount.
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  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by midlandslandlord View Post
    And a real question.

    How flexible are the Green Deal options technically?

    One of the real problems with EPCs is that they discourage best practice by only evaluating (for example) "cavity insulation" or "no cavity insulation", and do not (I think - open to correction) distinguish between bad double glazing and good double glazing.

    If, for example, I wanted to fit phenolic cavity insulation, rather than the bog standard stuff, where would the Green Deal stand on that?

    When we did this under previous funded programmes, on several occasions we paid ourselves because best practice was not possible.

    Ironically, one person who bought a property like this from us has now extended it, and because he went with standard 2012 practice (cavity insulation blocks), his 2012 extension is now a cold spot :-).

    On the other hand, he is now one of those people with a £30 a month electriicty bill in a detached house, while he makes £700-£1000 a year from the feed in tariff on the solar panels.

    ML
    Hi midlands landlord. Sorry I missed this post when you put it up, and you make some very good points.

    The EPC evaluation process takes no consideration as to how well a feature is operating, it's presence is recorded only. Some recommendations are broad brushed also, in that generic terms are used. At the point that a Green Deal plan is offered, it will be worthwhile making a note of the specific products specified as Providers will in many instances be using there standard products, when other higher grade products may be available.

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjlandlord View Post
    IMO, if a seller does some 'improvements' with a green deal right before putting the house on market, buyers should still use that as a bargaining tool, if only to cover themselves:
    - improvement was obviously done to try to inflate asking price,
    - seller has no interest in the improvement, so quality and effectiveness should be questioned,
    - actual savings cannot be proven,
    - buyer will bear full cost of improvement, plus potentially high interest rates.

    Indeed value should be no more than without improvement. Actually because of risks above I would even try to get a discount.
    Yes I think anyone doing a large refurb on GD just before placing it on the market is just asking for it to be used against him in bargaining terms. If this happens then it will be because the person has not understood how this is likely to play out. They will have thought that they could sneak an extra few grand on the sale price without the incoming person realising that they were picking up the bill. In reality, this can't be sneaked past someone interested in your house, its going to be red flagged on the EPC, and conveyancers will be picking it up as part of the search process.

    The point you make about the seller having no interest in quality in such an instance is a good one. If I were faced with this situation as a buyer of a house recently Green Dealed, I would have the same concerns. I would be less worried about the savings though, as the Golden Rule is a very large safety net. The interest rates would also be a problem where the incoming person has access to further cheap finance. Of course many people borrow right up to the hilt in order to get a mortgage and may have reached the end of there available finance options, so for some this may be less relevant.

  7. #57
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    Mar 2008
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    2,195

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoDave View Post
    The point you make about the seller having no interest in quality in such an instance is a good one. If I were faced with this situation as a buyer of a house recently Green Dealed, I would have the same concerns. I would be less worried about the savings though, as the Golden Rule is a very large safety net.
    Have you seen this in today's paper.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#axzz2K1lJiXth

    This is the sort of thing that people should look into before signing up to these deals.
    These comments assume you are in England/Wales, and that your last tenancy agreement was dated after 6th April 2007.

  8. #58
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    Nov 2010
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    In the article I like how they claim that the houses have solar panels: On the picture each house's roof has a single panel, about 1sqm... In Bradford.
    What's the point?

    Being the DM they obviously do not mention anything as to how bills could be so high, though...
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  9. #59

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    I also noticed that jjlandlord. On a nice and bright day like this a decent solar pv set up would power all the electrical needs of the average house, with plenty exported to the national grid. Even a house that has an air source heat pump would run virtually for free during the daylight hours today. But with only one solar panel, you couldn't even put the Hoover round at the same time as toasting your bread without exceeding its output - hardly worth bothering with.

    It's worth noting on the bill that is shown, that the leccy bill for the period sep 1st to dec 15th is £217.53. Now for a home that has no gas bill, that's not bad. It's probably a stab in the dark, but I'll bet that when they moved in they presumed that as they were in an "ecohome" they could leave the lights on, the thermostat on 27 and that they didn't have to worry about the bill. That would account for the huge amount in the first year of occupation.

    Good to see the usual standard of reporting from the DM though.

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    5,029

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    Did you see the guy that was disgruntled about his energy bill, wears a T-shirt in February?

    No wonder he has a large heating bill.

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