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Aug, 2014

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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    help@tenancyservices.co.uk
    Posts
    15,862

    Default

    The problem is the number of 'ifs'. Ultimately, if someone (anyone) tried to evict you using the s21 notice then you would attempt to defend based on the info here. It would be up to a judge to decide who is the landlord. However, even if the claim was dismissed, with section 21 it would be a simple matter to correct the errors the court identified and then re-apply. Eventually they would get a possession order.

    The practical solution is probably to consider the new landlords proposal to sign a new agreement, giving everybody a degree of security and clarity.

  2. #12

    Default

    Yep, I agree with you there. The new letting agent is just waiting on some information about terms etc from the new Landlord before they draw up new tenancy agreements for everyone (there are 12 apartments in the block of flats). If we agree then we can sign the new agreement, if not guess we'll be looking for somewhere new!

    Thanks for the help.

  3. #13

    Default Signing new AST whilst in notice from old Landlord

    Hey,

    I posted on here a few weeks ago about an issue I was having with being served an S21 notice after the landlord of our property changed hands, now I have some more information I wan't to get an update to see if there are any potential issues.

    Essentially on the 30th March the new Landlord (NL) bought the current property I am living in (a block of 12 apartments).

    Before this the property was owned by another company who had gone into administration who gave a letting agent (LA) a tenancy on the property who then sub-let the property to us.

    When the NL took over he served notice on the LA as he no longer wanted to use them to manage / let the property and wanted to do it himself.

    Therefore the LA had to serve us a 2 month notice as well.

    However the NL wants to keep us on as tenants whom he will manage directly and has given us all new AST agreements which start on the day after the notice from the LA ends in order to avoid any legal issues with breaking the LA contracts.

    However, the LA contract we have states we must vacate the property at the end of the tenancy, and the tenancy contract the LA had with the original owner said they must also give it back vacant.

    My question is whether there are any repercussions in not moving out at the end of the notice period served from the LA (i.e. not give deposit back or worse and apply for an eviction notice) and is what the NL doing legal for both him and us in starting a new contract the day after the notice period ends?

    Thanks!

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Central south coast
    Posts
    2,637

    Default

    The new owner of the flats is just that - the owner and you are now his tenants.

    I'm sure you have no written proof of what his arrangement with the letting agent is but when the property was put up for sale he or his solicitor would have looked into this in great detail.

    The agent was acting for the previous owner and I think it highly unlikely that they could enforce any action against the new owner. The agent may well be unhappy at the sale but any beef he has should be with the previous owner.
    If new owner offers you a new contract and you want to stay I would sign it.



    Freedom at the point of zero............

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    14,115

    Default

    I have asked the moderator to merge this with your previous thread, as members need to know the background to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaylril View Post
    However, the LA contract we have states we must vacate the property at the end of the tenancy, and the tenancy contract the LA had with the original owner said they must also give it back vacant.

    My question is whether there are any repercussions in not moving out at the end of the notice period served from the LA (i.e. not give deposit back or worse and apply for an eviction notice) and is what the NL doing legal for both him and us in starting a new contract the day after the notice period ends?
    Regardless of who your legal landlord is, if you have an assured shorthold tenancy in England/Wales, he cannot insist that you vacate at fixed term expiry. If you are an AST tenant, and you're in occupation at fixed term expiry, a statutory periodic tenancy (a.k.a. rolling contract) will automatically arise. The only way the LL can end the tenancy is by obtaining/enforcing a possession order.

    *If* the agent is/was your LL (subletting to you), and the agent's tenancy contract with the owner is about to end/has ended, then I believe the property owner would become your LL. He'd therefore be free to agree a new contract with you.

  6. #16

    Default

    Thanks for the replies, we are already in a statutory periodic tenancy (sorry if I missed that out), we have been since the 6 month fixed term ended at the end of Janurary.

    So even after the notice has ended (it expires on the 29th June) then this doesn't end the tenancy we have with the LA the only way that's possible is to enforce a possession order? However if we sign a new agreement today or when the notice expires or after that it doesn't really matter as the new AST will supercede the contract we have with the LA?

    Also in terms of getting the deposit back then from the LA (its in a deposit protection scheme) how will that work if the LA is going to be awkward about it and argue that the tenancy hasn't ended etc?

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    14,115

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaylril View Post
    Thanks for the replies, we are already in a statutory periodic tenancy (sorry if I missed that out), we have been since the 6 month fixed term ended at the end of Janurary.

    So even after the notice has ended (it expires on the 29th June) then this doesn't end the tenancy we have with the LA
    No. A s.21 notice isn't a notice to quit. It does not end the tenancy nor oblige you to vacate. It just entitles the LL to apply for a possession order. The identity of the LL is a variable, however, and only your legal LL can apply for possession.

    ...the only way that's possible is to enforce a possession order?
    Yes. As I said, "The only way the LL can end the tenancy is by obtaining/enforcing a possession order".

    However if we sign a new agreement today or when the notice expires or after that it doesn't really matter as the new AST will supercede the contract we have with the LA?
    It depends on who the legal LL is. If the agent is still your legal LL, (i.e. if his tenancy contract with the owner is still in place), then the owner isn't in a position to grant you a new tenancy. If the tenancy contract between agent and owner has expired, then the owner is your LL and he can grant you a new tenancy, and that will replace any other tenancy currently in place.

    Also in terms of getting the deposit back then from the LA (its in a deposit protection scheme) how will that work if the LA is going to be awkward about it and argue that the tenancy hasn't ended etc?
    Kind of hard to say when we don't know whether the tenancy between you and the original LL has ended or not. The deposit in respect of a tenancy in place when there's a change of LL is a matter between new and old LL - they ought to sort it out between them and transfer it from old to new. Ultimately, the new LL would be liable for returning the deposit to you (and possibly the old LL, too).

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Stevenage
    Posts
    1,384

    Default

    Two related threads merged.
    I also post as Mars_Mug when not moderating

  9. #19

    Default

    Hey Westminster,

    Thanks for the clarification. The new LL gave our current LL (the LA) 2 months notice on the 30th March according to their contract with the previous LL in the event of a sale of the property. Therefore the contract between the new LL and LA ends on the 30th May.

    He has asked us to start paying him rent from this date (30th May) - even though he has given us a new contract for a 12 month AST which starts on the 30th June which is a day after the notice from the LA expires. I'm guessing he's just trying to do the right thing by the LA even if they aren't being very cooperative about the whole thing. The new LL said they would also do an inventory of the flat on the 30th June.

    In terms of the deposit I'm guessing that when we sign the new contract then the deposit should be transferred from old to new as the tenancy between us and the old LL (the LA) has expired (as you stated in your previous post) because we would of signed a new AST with the new LL as the contract between the new LL and the LA will of expired on the 30th May?

  10. #20

    Default

    Just a quick update on this thread until it's resolved incase anyone might be interested in a similar case in the future - although I can't see that happening

    Spoke to a solicitor and Shelter and a few others, and they agree (as stated on this thread) that once the Letting Agents contract has ended the current AST I have simply transfers to the new owner of the property. The Letting Agent seemed to have an agreement with the original administrators, which allowed them to manage the lease for the old landlord and allowed them to sub-let each apartment. The letting agent was given 2 months notice for this contract by the Old Landlord on the day of the sale, giving them 2 months before their contract expires. It also stated that they would allow the Letting Agent 2 working days to serve the notice on the sub-letting tenants, so payments to them would cease after 3rd June (30th March served to them 2 months is 30th May + 2 working days).

    Of course the letting Agent are having non of it saying we should continue paying them after the 3rd June and that we have signed a contract with them that can only be ended via court eviction or the tenants surrendering the property, but I would like to see them go to court and be seen as the Legal Landlord when they don't have a contract in place to lease the property!

    So from the 4th June I am going to pay the New Landlord (as requested and seems by far the most obvious choice) and have signed a new AST with the landlord to start on the 30th June (the day after the original notice ends)

    I will give a further update if anything interesting happens.

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