Property is an unlicensed HMO- what effect on tenancy?

[jeffrey]

Want another s.21 problem with which to grapple?
See s.75(1) of Housing Act 2004. "No section 21 Notice may be given in relation to [an AST] of a part of an unlicensed HMO so long as it remains such an HMO."
At least the provision is clear. Just as where a deposit should be protected but remains unprotected, when no s.21 Notice can be served, the same is true where a property should be licensed as an HMO but remains unlicensed.

[vantagex]

i have just come upon this while filling out the court papers.But tell me what is part1 and part3? I think i have a hmo but not which requires a licence.(council could,nt tell me a year ago)It has 3 story.all self contained,4 flats but converted some time ago, so would not meet current regs...so a hmo yes?...but requires a licence? just 4 tenants. one of the flats does not even share a door into the house.

[red40]

i have just come upon this while filling out the court papers.But tell me what is part1 and part3?

Part 1 and part 3 of what?

Part 1 of the Housing Act is Housing Conditions, i.e Housing Health and Safety Rating System and Part 3 is Selective licensing of other residential accommodation, if that helps any?

I think i have a hmo but not which requires a licence.(council could,nt tell me a year ago)It has 3 story.all self contained,4 flats but converted some time ago, so would not meet current regs...so a hmo yes?

Looks like a definate HMO to me

...but requires a licence? just 4 tenants.

Not unless your council are operating additional licensing or selective, but you would need to speak to your council.

one of the flats does not even share a door into the house.

No relevance really as it appears to be a converted building to which section 257 applies of the above Act.

The only real issue with this is it will cost a little more in fire protection. By that I mean the flat with its own front door wont be connected to the communal stairway and therefore cannot have an interlinked smoke detection system installed in that particular flat as per the Institute of Electrical Engineers.

What usually happens is you may be asked to provide suitable 60 minute fire protection between any areas of that flat (seperate entrance) that are connected with any other flats, be it the ceiling, wall or floor, etc.

[SAWNOAK]

the flat with its own front door wont be connected to the communal stairway and therefore cannot have an interlinked smoke detection system installed in that particular flat as per the Institute of Electrical Engineers.

I’ve been trying to find out about the above. This is a regulation that I haven’t heard of before, an important one, would you have an Internet link by any chance?

[red40]

No sorry, you should ring the IEE or any of the electrician registration schemes, NAPIT, BRE, NICEIC, etc, etc, for advice, or have a good bedtime read of BS5839, BS7176, etc, etc, guaranteed to send you to sleep.

Having said that, you could also use the, say, Aico RF smoke detection system, these can be interlinked as they use radio frequency and are only connected to each (as required) light fitting pendant in the dwelling. If these are used the fire resistant integrity of the structure could go back to 30minute. Also with these types of systems each unit of accommodation can be house coded, to minimise the common problem of false alarms.

[red40]

Even though the HA 2004 definition of HMO includes flats in converted building (where not complying with 199x building regulations (think it is 1993) and more than 1/3rd being privately rented), our local council pointedly does not follow this.

I had a look wickerman but cant see were they say that, any chance of pointing us in the right direction or a link.

[vantagex]

looks like the fire system may need upgrading...i,ve found these which i am going to run past the fire risk assessor http://www.safelincs.co.uk/section.p...FQyI1QodQ2FOFw

[NAK]

Hi
I am looking at buying an unlicensed HMO that is a death trap in waiting and requires major renovation to bring it up to standard. The tenants are on AST's and would need to be evicted to allow the refurbishment to happen. The catch 22 problem is that the legislation, as I understand it, does not allow a section 21 notice to be issued to tenants where the HMO is unlicensed so the works cannot be done to get the property licensed - any suggestions? Thanks in advance

[mind the gap]

Hi
I am looking at buying an unlicensed HMO that is a death trap in waiting and requires major renovation to bring it up to standard. The tenants are on AST's and would need to be evicted to allow the refurbishment to happen. The catch 22 problem is that the legislation, as I understand it, does not allow a section 21 notice to be issued to tenants where the HMO is unlicensed so the works cannot be done to get the property licensed - any suggestions? Thanks in advance

Are you sure about this?

It is true that you cannot issue a s21 when the tenants' deposit is unprotected - but what legislation are you referring to?

If the property is a death trap as you say, the EHO can order LL to effect repairs, quite apart from the requirements of the HMO licence, and if those repairs/upgrading renders the house uninhabitable in the process, the tenants obviously cannot remain in it.

If it is the case that you cannot issue a section 21 (although I'd be very surprised), you could offer the tenants a financial incentive to move out; possibly offer them first refusal on the property when it is refurbished; help them find alternative acccomodation.

How long will the refurb take?

[NAK]

Are you sure about this?

It is true that you cannot issue a s21 when the tenants' deposit is unprotected - but what legislation are you referring to?

If the property is a death trap as you say, the EHO can order LL to effect repairs, quite apart from the requirements of the HMO licence, and if those repairs/upgrading renders the house uninhabitable in the process, the tenants obviously cannot remain in it.

If it is the case that you cannot issue a section 21 (although I'd be very surprised), you could offer the tenants a financial incentive to move out; possibly offer them first refusal on the property when it is refurbished; help them find alternative acccomodation.

How long will the refurb take?

It seems to be pretty definate that s21 is out if unlicensed - the specific wording is "No section 21 notice may be given in relation to a shorthold tenancy of a part of an unlicensed HMO so long as it remains such an HMO. "

The property is large and the refurb would take about 1 year. I believe EHO are about to pounce on the current owner and they have apparently told the tenants that their tenancies are safe/uninterrupted. As I don't own the property yet I would like to know if there is another defined legal way (ie is the EHO simply incorrect!) to get the tenants out so the work can be done without having to rely on negotiating with tenants and EHO.