Who pays the Council Tax: L or T?

[Meme]

I was not sure where to post this question

i paid council tax for my rental property (not yet let) and was charged 1.83% of amount paid (£101.83 instead of £100)- credit card transaction charge.

I am about to put all my accounts onto a computerised accounts system (bills and preletting costs only so far). i was wondering if the whole amount counts as council tax or do i have to split it and post the 1.83% charge into another nominal code. If so which one? Also i assume utility bill etc are allowable preletting expenses

I would be grateful for some help.

Thank you

You could put it as bank charges, but I don't think it matters really - I wouldn't bother separating. Yes should be allowable as long as the property is available for letting.

[boggit]

Thanks David - this is my feeling, too.

Someone has just told me that if the tenancy agreement mentions that the council tax and other bills are the tenant's responsibility, then the landlord cannot be held responsible if the tenant fails to pay.

I think most tenancy agreements would say that plus the fact that tenant is responsible for insuring their own possessions, etc.

I would find it hard to believe that a LA would have the right to demand proof of someone being registered with another LA.

Besides the house I live in, I own a flat. Between tenants, while I had to work on the flat, I had to pay Council Tax - even though I'm already paying it at my house.
Probably irrelevant, but it's not as if you only have to pay once!

The 'living abroad' scenario would be fine but too complicated.

I'm wondering, if the couple with whom he also stayed (who were paying full council tax) could confirm that he lived there, providing there would be no impact on them financially or legally?

But I think it's best to provide the tenancy agreements.

His daughter doesn't have a tenancy agreement.

I suppose if you have given permission for someone to live in your house/flat, you would be responsible for their council tax, unless you have explicitly pointed out their responsibility in a letter/agreement?

[boggit]

Tell him to provide the tenancy agreements for the council, signed tenancy agreements are enough to prove he wasnt in occupation, they do not have the right to know where he has been for the past x amount of time..... however please be aware that the tenancy agreements will/may hold his address details anyway

Thanks Springfields - exactly - I guess the address on the tenancy agreement could be his mailing address and not necessarily his home.

Unfortunately, the chaotic nature of his relationship with his ex girlfriend meant that he was not able to trust her. She began opening all his mail and was always desperate for cash. He had to revert to using the flat for postal address. His tenants and his daughter didn't mind and he would phone to arrange to pick up mail. So there is little, if any, proof that he did live there. I believe the address on the tenancy agreement was his girlfriend's.

[jwvdo]

Hi all,

I have an annex as part of my property, which we have let out recently, being worse for wear in our current economic climate. We pay council tax on our main house, and our tenants pay council tax on the self-contained unit upstairs in the annex.

Four years ago, we converted the triple garage (which is downstairs in the annex) into a games room - it has a wet room, a bar with a sink and fridge that's it. There is no gas (other than for the boiler), no pipes for gas, no space for a cooker, so no way to turn the bar into a "proper" kitchen.

We have recently rented out the room to someone who doesn't need major cooking facilities - so we have put a microwave in there and some induction heating hotplates that just plug into the wall sockets.

According to the rather vague council valuation guidelines, if a unit is "self-contained" it has to have kitchen facilities and bathing facilities. The games room was never classified as a self-contained unit before, I am wondering if they can now levy council tax on it when we've put a microwave and two hotplates in there?

If so, does it mean if I put a mcirowave and two hotplates in my guest suite (which has an ensuite batchroom) it would also technically be liable (this is hypothetical - my "rebuttle")?

Any help here is appreciated - we've covered ourselves in the SHT by stipulating that if council tax is ever liable, the tenant must pay it, but I'd rather not give the council more unwarranted money that they don't do any work for than I already do...

[islandgirl]

did you have planning to convert the garage? I would certainly think that someone living in it would be against current planning status whether you did or did not!

[jwvdo]

??? Yes we had planning permission, why on earth wouldn't we!?

The place has had different furniture added to it so it can be let. No structural or otherwise "planning required" changes have been made.

That is not the question I asked.

I am asking if a "room" of our Annex, which hasn't previously (despite VOA having access to the planning requirements) been classified as a self-contained unit might be classified as a self-contained unit just because we've changed furniture around and added a microwave and two hotplates.

Anyone?

[mind the gap]

If the triple garage is accessible from outside ie the tenant does not have to pass through your part of the house to get to it, and if the tenant in the converted triple garage is living independently down there as tenant and not as your lodger (ie sharing kitchen and bathroom facilities with you - which he does not sound to be), then it would suggest that the unit is truly self-contained and you (or he) should be paying council tax on it as a separate dwelling.

Your scenario of putting a hotplate in your guest ensuite is not really the same thing unless the guest suite is entirely self-contained and independently occupied, too.

If you are letting the garage to a tenant your council may well want to know whether it meets safety standards. Best give them a ring, explain the situation and ask what you need to do with regard (i) to fire safety measures and (ii) to Council Tax.

Before someone else does :rolleyes:

[jwvdo]

Ok thanks for the insights. I have a clause in the AST that liability remains with the tenant.

However, I do have a further question; when (1 year) we take back the "room", does that mean from here onwards, once I make the council aware and (I guess from what you're all saying) they inveitably charge council tax, does it mean it is still liable for council tax when I convert it back to a games room?

I'm a little galled, because to "turn it back to a games room" requires removing the bed, wardrobe, microwave and hot plates, and putting back the fish tank, computer desks and other office equipment that was in there previously.

However, do I presume correctly I can get it re-evaluated and council tax removed?

[jwvdo]

Oh and sorry, to clarify, our games room is a proper room - it has Building Regs approval etc. etc., has underfloor heating, heavily insulated walls, heck, its better built than our main house!

So I don't quite get the point on safety - the building regs we had to comply with were pretty stringent.

[mind the gap]

Oh and sorry, to clarify, our games room is a proper room - it has Building Regs approval etc. etc., has underfloor heating, heavily insulated walls, heck, its better built than our main house!

So I don't quite get the point on safety - the building regs we had to comply with were pretty stringent.
Does it have the required amount of natural light coming in, for the floor area? If not it might not qualify as an 'habitable room', ie. deemed fit for someone to live in (as opposed to just playing pool in).

[mind the gap]

I'm a little galled, because to "turn it back to a games room" requires removing the bed, wardrobe, microwave and hot plates, and putting back the fish tank, computer desks and other office equipment that was in there previously.

However, do I presume correctly I can get it re-evaluated and council tax removed?

You are missing the point a little. Whether it is treated as a separate dwelling or not for CT purposes depends more on the design of the building and access, than on the kind of objects you place in it, although if you have created the means by which a tenant can live independently down there, you have effectively created a new dwelling.

If at some point you claim it back for your own use, then I would imagine that you can indeed have it re-assessed.

[Paul_f]

I rarely post any questions but this is a bit different.

I have a tenant whose fixed term AST expires later this month. She moved out with 3 months still left of the fixed term having purchased a new property and moved in there. She notified the Local Authority that she had moved out and therefore the 6 months exemption on Council Tax payments for unoccupied premises kicked-in at that time.

At the moment I do not have a replacement tenant, if I don't manage to find one before the next 3/4 months (there is currently a low demand in that area) I shall have to pay full Council Tax thereafter through no fault of mine until one is found.

My question is: would it be reasonable to expect the outgoing tenant to pay any council tax due after this 3 months grace-free period for a potential further three months as she had been in breach? The Local Authority tells me that my AST means nothing as far as CT liability is concerned.

The tenant did enjoy a 25% discount as a single occupant but of course I would have to pay full rate.

I'm not trying to be alarmist and I trust it won't arise but would appreciate any comment. The AST does have a clause stating that the tenant is obliged to live at the property. She was notified of this breach at the time of vacation. Now that she has vacated it compromises my insurance policy in that cover is very much reduced (which I have also told her), and it no longer is her main residence. What do you think?

[thesaint]

You haven't put any details of her moving out, and your current position with regards to pursuing of rent due etc(if any).

[Interlaken]

I can see that you could go for tenant for not giving correct notice (if I have understood this right) and therefore some rent but she has informed council of her move and paying CT so what has that got to do with you?

Did you not know she had moved out and if not why not?

[westminster]

Did you agree a surrender with the tenant, or are you going to treat the tenancy as continuing and pursue T for rent for the remainder of the fixed term?

[Paul_f]

You haven't put any details of her moving out, and your current position with regards to pursuing of rent due etc(if any).
"I have a tenant whose fixed term AST expires later this month. She moved out with 3 months still left of the fixed term"That phrase should have answered the first part of your question. If there had been any rent liabiltity I would have said so, but as it's nothing to do with Council Tax Liability I didn't mention it!

[Paul_f]

Did you agree a surrender with the tenant, or are you going to treat the tenancy as continuing and pursue T for rent for the remainder of the fixed term?You should know me better than that! No surrender, and all rent has been paid.

[Paul_f]

I can see that you could go for tenant for not giving correct notice.What Notice would that be?

[Interlaken]

So why did you not try to get new tenant as soon as she left? Sounds like she agreed to go on paying rent but not CT on your prop. You can't have your cake and eat it!

[westminster]

My question is: would it be reasonable to expect the outgoing tenant to pay any council tax due after this 3 months grace-free period for a potential further three months as she had been in breach?
I think that if the T's breach causes you to suffer a loss, then you have a valid claim. By leaving the property vacant, she is using up 3 of your 6 months free period.

[Snorkerz]

So why did you not try to get new tenant as soon as she left? Acording to the other posts, T had paid rent up until the end of the tenancy with no surrender, therefore Paul_f could not install new tenants or do anything inconsistent with the tenancy continuing (like viewings)

[IanM]

She notified the Local Authority that she had moved out and therefore the 6 months exemption on Council Tax payments for unoccupied premises kicked-in at that time.I don't understand why this is the case? People simultaneously own or rent more than one property all the time - they still have to pay all the council tax on all their properties. Surely T is still liable for for the council tax until the fixed term ends? albeit at the unoccupied rate (or 2nd home/holiday home rate.) I would take it up with the council and send them a copy of the tenancy agreement.

[Bel]

IMO the council is acting correctly.

As said by previous member you may have a right to claim back any extra expense her breach has caused you, you could certainly make her aware that if it cannot be relet with 3 months, you will persue her, but it could turn out to be an expensive, time wasting exercise to persue through the courts if she ignores you later request

The obvious answer is to find someone who wants to live there for a month (rent free) and then the council tax clock will be reset.

[Springfields]

My gut instinct would say that she is not liable to pay or compensate you for the additional three months.

My reasoning is: You have accepted that she has moved out of the property and in doing this that the property will be left as vacant (and unfurnished persumably), Giving her the entitlement to exemption from council tax not you at this stage.

[westminster]

My reasoning is: You have accepted that she has moved out of the property and in doing this that the property will be left as vacant

Obviously, OP had no choice but to 'accept' the fact that T decided to move out (how could he refuse to accept it, lock her in?) Moreover, he has not agreed a surrender, and has treated the tenancy as continuing and charged rent for the duration of the fixed term.

[property mongrel]

I don't think you can retrospectivley charge her now unless you told her at the time that you would charge her.

You apparently accepted her leaving the property empty 2.5 months ago despite your clause stating that she has to live there. Presumably she did not just walk out without you knowing that she was buying a place and was intending to leave? So you may have had some notice? You could have started making it ready to re-let, marketing it, with her consent, explaining that this might give her a rent rebate if you had been able to let it and also that she may avoid additional costs such as the Council Tax.

Interesting question, and I think that if you had made it clear to her all the costs that she might incur at that time so that she could change her mind if necessary, and if you had taken all reasonable steps to minimise these costs, you would have a chance.

Was all her furniture removed from the property at the 3 month period? Apart from white goods and fixtures and fittings? Just because she was not living there does not necessarily make it or her exempt from Council Tax.

I am no expert though, just trying to see it from both sides.

As an afterthought, would you ask her for the 75% CT she would have paid in occupation, or the 100% CT you will pay while it is empty? Why did you not start to market it sooner, with her consent of course?

pm

[Springfields]

Obviously, OP had no choice but to 'accept' the fact that T decided to move out (how could he refuse to accept it, lock her in?) Moreover, he has not agreed a surrender, and has treated the tenancy as continuing and charged rent for the duration of the fixed term.

No, but it would make an interesting case for a LL to lock tt rather than locking them out :)
I assume that it was stipulated by Paul that the TT would be responsible for all the utilities up to the point the contract ends. However with the council tax it is the tenant who is entitled to the exemption as she is within her contract.
Does TT still have keys for the property?

[westminster]

You apparently accepted her leaving the property empty 2.5 months ago despite your clause stating that she has to live there.
Again I ask, how could OP have refused to accept T moving out?


Presumably she did not just walk out without you knowing that she was buying a place and was intending to leave? So you may have had some notice?
T could not give notice to end the tenancy before the end of the fixed term.


You could have started making it ready to re-let, marketing it, with her consent, explaining that this might give her a rent rebate if you had been able to let it and also that she may avoid additional costs such as the Council Tax.
LL has no obligation to re-let/mitigate loss of rent. OP was entitled to treat the tenancy as continuing and to demand rent for the duration of the fixed term.


Interesting question, and I think that if you had made it clear to her all the costs that she might incur at that time so that she could change her mind if necessary, and if you had taken all reasonable steps to minimise these costs, you would have a chance.
T signed a binding contract spelling out T's obligations. It should be perfectly clear to T that a breach of contract may result in LL claiming for a loss suffered as a result.

[westminster]

However with the council tax it is the tenant who is entitled to the exemption as she is within her contract.
As far as the CT department is concerned, T is not the one receiving the exemption, as she closed her account with them.

The fact remains that T's breach - i.e. leaving property vacant - means that it is possible LL may suffer a consequent loss. I think there's a strong enough case to argue that T is liable.

[Springfields]

As far as the CT department is concerned, T is not the one receiving the exemption, as she closed her account with them.

The fact remains that T's breach - i.e. leaving property vacant - means that it is possible LL may suffer a consequent loss. I think there's a strong enough case to argue that T is liable.

Thats by the by, TT is entitled to the exemption, had tt moved out of the property and it was furnished she would be liable to pay. LL could prove her liability with tenancy agreement.

TT is liable for the council tax, but with the liability and the property being vacant shes entitled to the exemption.

[westminster]

TT is liable for the council tax, but with the liability and the property being vacant shes entitled to the exemption.
That would only be true if the account were still in the T's name. We don't know whether it is or not, but I'm guessing not.

[property mongrel]

Again I ask, how could OP have refused to accept T moving out? It appears Paul had an unenforceable clause, what's the point of that?

T could not give notice to end the tenancy before the end of the fixed term. In this context I meant "NOTICE" as in information, an inkling.

LL has no obligation to re-let/mitigate loss of rent. OP was entitled to treat the tenancy as continuing and to demand rent for the duration of the fixed term. He has demanded the rent for the fixed term, she has paid the rent for the fixed term, the issue here is all the additional add ons that Paul is or may be considering. What next the additional costs of visiting the premises at 40p per mile, the cost of medication to help him sleep as he is awake worrying about this issue? While there is no liability to mitigate loss I think it would have been reasonable to plan ahead and anticipate this problem before it arose and be seen to have been trying to mitigate loss in any proceedings.

T signed a binding contract spelling out T's obligations. Including an unenforceable and unreasonable one? It should be perfectly clear to T that a breach of contract may result in LL claiming for a loss suffered as a result. I am not sure that he is suffering a cost, he is just not benefiting from an exemption.

It has been suggested that you could not start viewings or do actions inconsistent with the tenancy continuing, but you could have conducted viewings with your T's consent, 3 months ago, or when you first became aware that she was intending to vacate the property notwithstanding that she remained responsible for rent, with a view to getting new tenants in at the end of her fixed term.

I am just wondering how this would look and sound in a civil case with you the professional Letter up against the amateur Tenant defending your inaction by saying you had no duty to mitigate your loss etc.

pm

[Paul_f]

Thanks for all the very interesting replies and I appreciate that.

Just to summarise - Westminster has assessed the situation pretty well. You can't make a tenant stay but she would still be liable for looking after the premises, and therefore by vacating is in fact in breach, because of the necessity to live there as stipulated within the AST. Also my property insurer stipulates that they must be notified if there is more than 14 consecutive days when the premises are unoccupied, and must be inspected every 7 days thereafter whilst vacant! How would I do that without the tenant's express permission as she still has the keys (which I insist she keeps until determination). I and my agent also have a set and I'm sure she wouldn't object if either of us were to inspect each week. If there were to be a claim on the (reduced cover) insurance then I would certainly hold the tenant liable until determination (I've told her this) if any incident not covered by her non-occupation would have been so if occupied.

The CT issue is that the council clearly stated to me that exemption was on the property and nothing to do with the fact a valid tenancy was in force. I suppose I could try and reclaim from the tenant any liability that kicks-in should that be the case. I can't pre-empt this and retain the equivalent amount from the deposit as it might not happen.

Some poster(s) seems to think that because she moved out I was somehow accepting early surrender!!! I can't follow this reasoning as all rent was paid and the 6 months fixed term will soon be ending. No notice is necessary from the tenant as most of you know. There was fairly obviously no break clause.

I'll see how it pans out but I will definitely put the point about CT to the tenant before determination just in case I need to pursue her for any CT that I might incur as a result of her early departure.

[mind the gap]

I would have thought that if a new T cannot be found quickly and a lengthy void period ensues, three months' Council Tax will be the least of OP's losses. Deckchairs...Titanic. Get out there with your 'House to Let' sandwich board, Paul!

[westminster]

It appears Paul had an unenforceable clause, what's the point of that?
It's not about enforceability, but T's liability if she breaches it and LL suffers a consequent loss.

[Poolboy]

I am a LL & have always let to students. All done properly & legally.

My Ts last year failed to renew their agreement with council for CT exemption, I didn't know you had to do this every quarter so be warned.

I had a 3 day void this year between tenancies so I had painters in. I declared this to council so I got a CT bill which I paid.

So, now the council know an address for a LL who will pay a CT bill promptly.

I then receive a bill for unpaid CT for last year as the then T did not renew their exemption. I immediately phoned the council, emailed & wrote.

Council kept sending me bills with no explanation, legal threats re not paying. Apparently as the LL I am responsible for the accuracy of the T's exemption (ie, if they are not exempt the LL pays!).

Anyway, after what must be 10 communications via phone, email & letter between LL, old T & Council, Council have now agreed not to hold me as LL liable.

I spent ages clearing this up & had no idea I was liable for the accuracy of the T's declaration of exemption. In future I am getting the T's CT account in writing before I refund any deposits. In fact, 6 weeks deposit would not cover a years CT liability.

Be warned!

[jjlandlord]

Are you renting as HMO?

If so I think that you are responsible for CT. Otherwise, if Ts let through regular AST, they are fully responsible for CT.

[Poolboy]

it's an AST not HMO.

On past threads on here it's been advised that the LL is ultimately responsible for CT. In my case the council assumed it was empty or I was in occupancy as the outgoing T had not renewed his exemption.

It was actually quite difficult to prove I as LL was not living there as the elec is PAYG meter, water is incl in service charge.

In the end all I had to do was show them a signed AST.

Council just want the arrears so they seem to just send out bills to anyone who they think will pay.

[mind the gap]

it's an AST not HMO.



They are not mutually exclusive, of course. Many HMOs are let out to groups on joint AST contracts, or to individuals on separate ASTs. In the case of the former, the Ts are usually liable for the CT; in the latter the LL is.

Either way, if they are all students and on a joint contract, it's worth telling them to be pro-active about registering the fact that they are/should be exempt for CT purposes, otherwise, councils will indeed try to charge them or (even worse!) the LL.

I have never heard of a council requiring students to re-register every quarter. Do council workers have nothing better to do?

[jeffrey]

Student-status certification is annually, as far as I can see.

[Wickerman]

Council tax exemption certificates are normally course-length. This can be yearly or even several years on the certificate.

Note also that there has recently been a high court ruling that decided that the landlord of a HMO should not be liable for council tax on a shared house - presumably the contractural agreement for the tenants to pay should be valid.

I do not have details of this case - it was in this months RLA magazine.

[mind the gap]

Note also that there has recently been a high court ruling that decided that the landlord of a HMO should not be liable for council tax on a shared house - presumably the contractural agreement for the tenants to pay should be valid.

I do not have details of this case - it was in this months RLA magazine.
That's interesting - do you recall whether it was separate ASTs, or one joint one?

If the latter (with the likelihood of Ts moving in and out at different times), how would you/they organise payment? So much a month each for every month they were there, or what?

[Wickerman]

That's interesting - do you recall whether it was separate ASTs, or one joint one?

If the latter (with the likelihood of Ts moving in and out at different times), how would you/they organise payment? So much a month each for every month they were there, or what?

I think it was a joint one, but payment is their problem - the council would presumably put the bill in joint names.

We get on very well with a senior person in the local council and have managed to get a mixed sharing house (students + workers) put on the council tax bill (eg no landlord liability).

[Brixtonia]

A limited company of which I am sole director owns a derelict property which has been sat empty since purchasing it it April. Today I visited the property for the first time since June and found that council tax demands had been sent addressed to me personally at the property, the demands had resulted in a County Court hearing in August which found against me personally in my absence. The only place I can imagine that my name was taken from is a planning application.

Obviously I do not own the property and I have never lived there. Is there any way that the council is able to hold me personally liable for council tax at that property?

[Telometer]

Ignoring for a moment the apparent extraordinary attitude to your own possessions that comes with leaving a property abandoned for five months.... It seems very unlikely that the council can hold you personally liable for council tax there. However, your company is liable. Why didn't you pay the tax/register the property as vacant?

[jeffrey]

I doubt it- unless you personally have any legal estate/interest in the house.
Check the Local Government Finance Acts, however, in case they make Directors personally liable for defaults by the company.

[Brixtonia]

Thanks for the lead, Jeffrey. I cannot see anything to that effect in the legislation so guess not. It does strike me as odd that the Magistrate's Court can uphold a claim by the council against a named person without the council having to provide at least a modicum of evidence of that person ever having owned or resided at or had liability for that property.

[schocca]

Here's a link that gives further details on the High Court ruling.... (July 2010):

http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2010/07/hmos-and-council-tax/

[MickyV]

In the meantime, Brixtonia, I guess you have already approached the council in question and tried to negotiate a deal with them? In my experience, where a genuine mistake has been made, local authorities often take a sensible approach.

[bilabonic]

Hi All

Bought a house for rental in June tenant moved in Oct. During June- Oct period the house was stripped top/bottom, totally uninhabitable/unfurnished.

I have just recieved a council tax bill for this period. I contacted my council and told them the situation and they said i needed to supply a builders report yet i have done all work by myself/family.

Was it my duty to inform them ?

How can i prove this to avoid the payment ??

When i bought my main residence i just informed them over the phone of the same situation and all was fine.....

Would not a written statement of me just suffice as i do with single occupancy in my residence for 25% discount ?Why is this discount any different ??

Anyone help

Cheers

[Gordon999]

Each council seems to have its own rules. My council will only give maximim of 6 months exemption on paying council tax after they send an inspector to the property to check there is no furniture inside.

[TaxationPete]

It is your responsibility to inform then at the beginning. Do you have Photograghs before and after, do you have all the invoices. A valuation at purchase and one just prior to first tenant. Regards Peter

[bilabonic]

I have pics showing it like a worksite, also a folder full of receipts.

But the council is stating that the 6 months starts when the house was vacated and for sale over a year before ?

Not from my date of purchase ?

[jeffrey]

I have pics showing it like a worksite, also a folder full of receipts.

But the council is stating that the 6 months starts when the house was vacated and for sale over a year before ?

Not from my date of purchase?
No. I think that consecutive ownerships are added together; so only one six-month-free period applies even if ownership changes.

[Evergreen]

i house a tenant from a council in a flat that is in another council borough

he's from that council's homeless team - what happens to the council tax for this property?

i know for housing benefit tenants with zero income its minimal/ zero

the difference here is that although the tenant was homeless too - a license is in place instead of an AST

thanks for any info

[mdujhr]

Hi,

I have a verbal agreement with a friend who has been living in a flat of mine for the last 1.5 years (she is a student). Recently the council sent a letter asking for council tax payment of £160 for 1 month. I know students are exempt from paying council tax, so how do i go about addressing this issue. She is a PHD student and so occupies the flat all year round. Do I need to set up a written agreement now (?) confirming she has been in the property for a long period of time (the month concerned dates back 6 months ago), and if so, then do i back track the dates so the tenancy agreement commences just before the month we have been incorrectly billed for? or shall i explain the situation to the council (and will they be happy with this justification?). I have already spoken to the council and they did ask me to provide them with a tenancy agreement.

i'm a little confused, so would appreciate any help.

many thanks

[Interlaken]

Was full council tax originally being paid on this flat before the student moved in?

You are right, students do not have to pay council tax so why do you want to pay an incorrect bill.

You don't have to have a tenancy agreement to let a residential premises but it is wise. You could tell the council it is a verbal agreement and they should mind their own business. I'm not getting the connection between the AST and coundil tax?

[mind the gap]

It is not really a case of telling the council to mind their own business. It is their business! They need to know who has been living in the property, with whom and whether or not any of the occupants, or the owner, are liable for CT.

A written AST agreement is one way of verifying that the property-owner is not just saying there is a student living there, in order to avoid paying the CT.

If, for example, the owner was sharing with the student (resident LL + lodger), it would change the CT liability.Likewise if the student is /has been sharing with another person who is not a student, or if the student is working and only registered as a part-time student.

Once the council are satisfied the student has been living there lone or only with other students, they will ask all the occupnts to verify their full-time student status by contacting their universities direct.

They will not be taking anyone's word for it - this is a couple of thousand pounds at stake here!

[LesleyAnne]

Just out of interest, as you do not have a written TA for this T, do you abide by the other rules and regs of letting, ie declaring to your mortgage lender/insurance company, completing tax return for your rental income, registering their deposit, safety checks on the property etc.

I am not in any way meaning to suggest that you are breaking any rules or failing in your obligations as a good LL, but sometimes the lack of formal agreement can lead to other things being overlooked too.

As previously said, Council will "assume" the T is liable for CT until they are told otherwise. They will need proof of the student status, but it won't really matter to them whether you have a written TA, so long as you can prove the T has been in occupation all that time. However, for you and your T's security and peace of mind it wouldn't be a bad idea to get one in place. Verbal agreements, even between very good friends, do have a habit of going bad when you least expect it!

[Interlaken]

MTG - I do have issues with councils who presume guilty status on people until proved innocent.

It would seem that OP seems to want to act in a strange manner to get around their situation but I do take exception to having to prove status at every turn in life since council tax came in.

[mind the gap]

MTG - I do have issues with councils who presume guilty status on people until proved innocent.

It would seem that OP seems to want to act in a strange manner to get around their situation but I do take exception to having to prove status at every turn in life since council tax came in.

If everyone were honest, I agree, it should not be necessary. Sadly, not everyone is, which is why councils have to carry out checks. (I must stress I am not implying OP isn't honest). It's not really a case of 'innocent until presumed guilty', either.

The default position is that CT is payable on residential properties unless the occupier/owner qualifies for a rebate/100% exemption. I do not think it is unreasonable that people hoping to qualify for those exemptions should have to demonstrate they are due to them e.g. by proving that they lived there and/or their student status.

If you are due to a payment/rebate in any other tax/benefits or financial matter, you generally have to prove who you are and why you qualify. Why is this different?

[Emma1973]

Well, things are actually different for PhD students and are not always automatically exempt from CT!
For example a 5th year PhD student or a part-time student is not automatically exempt but they can claim CT Benefit.
4th years, the 'writing up' year has been causing a great deal of controversy including court cases! Many councils have an agreement with the universities that they regard them as full time students and thus exempt. But it appears that 4th years are exempt but they must get a letter from their supervisor.

6 months ago sounds like it could be the end of the academic year, did she provide her evidence of exemption then, or is it possible that the university would cover that particular month?

She's probably best off going to her university advice centre!

[mind the gap]

Thanks, Emma. I only usually let to undergrads, so it's interesting to see how complicated it can get with postgrads!

The principle is the same though - surely if they think they qualify for a rebate/exemption, should they not expect to have to produce evidence of their entitlement, rather than expecting the council to take their word for it and grant them it automatically?

[Emma1973]

They do indeed, some councils are automatically given the names and addresses of students but this is usually for undergraduates. Quite often a seperate form or letter from the supervisor of the PhD student has to be provided.

And of course they should provide evidence of their exemption, etc, just as people claiming CTB have to prove their income, etc, otherwise we could all just claim it and assume the council would know whether we had to pay it or not!

[mind the gap]

They do indeed, some councils are automatically given the names and addresses of students but this is usually for undergraduates. Quite often a seperate form or letter from the supervisor of the PhD student has to be provided. In my experience, some councils just accept the LL's word for it for a few years, then suddenly 'swoop' and demand that every (fomer/current) undergrad who has lived in the property for the last x years proves they are/were a student! When I suggested that perhaps it would be better to do this year by year (it's much harder to chase departed tenants and graduates tend to move away), they agreed, but cited 'manpower shortages' as the reason why they couldn't!


And of course they should provide evidence of their exemption, etc, just as people claiming CTB have to prove their income, etc, otherwise we could all just claim it and assume the council would know whether we had to pay it or not!

Yes indeed.

[LesleyAnne]

Regarding CT exemption, we had a 6 month void at our property last year, and as it is unfurnished, I rang the Council to ask about suspending CT. They sent me a 1 page form to complete and return, but asked for no proof that the flat was indeed empty at that time. It is g/f, so fairly easy if anyone did call round to check, by looking through the window to see it was empty, but I am not aware that any visits were made. This is 2nd time I have applied for exemption (previous time was 8 weeks between T's) and no-one verified it then either. Seems a bit lax that they just took my word for it!

[mind the gap]

Regarding CT exemption, we had a 6 month void at our property last year, and as it is unfurnished, I rang the Council to ask about suspending CT. They sent me a 1 page form to complete and return, but asked for no proof that the flat was indeed empty at that time. It is g/f, so fairly easy if anyone did call round to check, by looking through the window to see it was empty, but I am not aware that any visits were made. This is 2nd time I have applied for exemption (previous time was 8 weeks between T's) and no-one verified it then either. Seems a bit lax that they just took my word for it!

:confused: But it was unoccupied. Unless you lived next door and spent the whole day spying out of the window, how would you know whether they had been round to check, or not?!

[LesleyAnne]

I don't know for sure, but the Freeholder lives on site and and the chap in the flat next door is disabled and hardly ever goes out, so very little goes on without either being aware of it. I told them I applied for the exemption incase anyone turned up and started nosing around. Perhaps they random check and didn't choose ours this time.

[aid2405]

I'm there has been a lot of questions over the years on HMO's but I need a bit of help.

The council has classed my house which I rent to two students as a HMO. They are both on separate tenancy agreements. I know that I am liable to pay the council tax due to its HMO status. But one tenant is refusing to pay me additional money to cover the council tax.

Do they have the right to refuse payment due to me being liable to pay the council tax? In the tenancy agreement is clearly states that tenants are to pay council tax.

Any advice would be helpful.

[lavy]

i beleive students may be exempt from council tax if they are full time students so it may be down to to you as a hmo

[mind the gap]

Whose name is on the council tax bill?

[Snorkerz]

What does your tenancy agreement say about council tax?

[byterider]

1) If there are only two people living there it would be very difficult for them to class it as an HMO. Did the students know each other prior? If they did know each other then it really is bordering on it being classed as a single household in which case it definintely would not be an HMO.

2) For an HMO it is the LL who is responsible for seeing that the council tax gets paid. This should be factored into the rent accordingly.

3) Full time university students do not pay council tax. Your local council should have a list of full time students sent to them by the university. If they are full time just contact the council and give them your tenant's details.

hope this helps,

James

[schocca]

Also, review this blog posting about a High Court case last July which found for the Landlord (not being liable for Council tax):
http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2010/07/hmos-and-council-tax/

[mariner]

That High Court decision may provide problems for the OP. As I read it Judgement was in favour of the LL because although the TA listed all occupants as tenants, each was 'jointly & severally liable' for the overall rent and each had free access to all of the property.
In the OPs case each tenant has an individual AST and is not 'jointly & severally liable' for the overall property rent as I assume the other tenant is not named on the ind AST (licence to occupy)
As stated in the Judgement definition of HMO for C Tax is not the same as for Housing Act and related legislation.

The only things I can suggest is the OP -
1 issues Notice of a rent increase (subject to AST) to cover LL liability to C Tax for HMOs and hope the awkward tenant vacates
2 terminate the tenancies & offer a new tenancy agreement making both tenants 'jointly & severally liable' for the combined rent in a single AST, assuming all have access to 'common' areas
Explain proposal with compliant tenant so they can find an acceptable person to share if reqd
3 Embarass the Council with a local press article stating CT rules are forcing some uni students to pay C Tax for accommodation when normally they are exempt.
4 Involve the NUS for support

There are downside to the above

[jeffrey]

Full time university students do not pay council tax. Your local council should have a list of full time students sent to them by the university. If they are full time just contact the council and give them your tenant's details.
Not quite. Yes, students do not have to pay CT; but each must produce the University's certificate of status.

[Emma1973]

Many universities do now send the list of students as a matter of course, but it is of course sensible for them to check! The first time I went to uni you did indeed have to produce the certificate of status but with the second time is was done automatically.

[aid2405]

Ok I should have given some more information.

The local council is Nottingham City.

One is an international student on exchange and cannot supply a letter from the University saying they are a full time student. She is refusing to pay because: 1 the house is classed as a HMO due to separate tenancy agreements and they do not know each other.

One is doing her PHD and not classed as a student. As the actual course has finished, but she is finalising it.

I have received a letter from the council stating that I owe them money and that the house is classed as a HMO.

My problem is: Fair enough its classed as a HMO, and therefore I am liable to pay. But if it says in the contract that the tenant should pay council tax. Can I not make them pay?

[Snorkerz]

I presume the contract states they must pay the council tax?

YOU are liable to the council; but
You can sue the tenant(s) for the cost.

If your overseas student is nearing the end of her course, you may not have time to pursue this through the court system. Do you have a deposit and guarantor?

[byterider]

Nottingham City council does not count a 2 person house an HMO.

http://www.nottinghamcity.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=8159

Look at the last point under are there any exceptions? about halfway down the page.


Are there any exceptions?

Yes. Buildings not regarded as HMOs (excluding Part I of the Housing Act 2004 – see HHSRS section) include:

* Buildings controlled or managed by public sector bodies eg Registered Social Landlords, Police Authorities etc
* Buildings regulated by other legislation eg care homes, detention centres etc
* Buildings controlled or managed by an educational establishment (specified by type or otherwise) and occupied by the establishment's students
* Buildings occupied by religious communities whose principal occupation is prayer, contemplation, education or the relief of suffering
* Buildings occupied by the owner and members of his household, provided there are no more than two other persons (eg lodgers)
* Buildings occupied only by two persons who form two households


This is about the only area of knowledge I am happy with......

a) I went to Nottingham Uni and lived in student accomodation for 4 years in Nottingham City Coucil

b) My HMO's are in Nottingham City Coucil

c) One of my friends works in environmental health for the city council

[byterider]

I am curious as to who has told you it is an HMO?

Did the tennants call environmental health?

Did the council tax dept call them?

Has anyone from environmental health ever been round?

Where is the property? The council are coming down hard on some areas in Nottingham when it comes to students.

[aid2405]

The tenant called to council as she didnt want to pay council tax and wanted to claim benefits. Then i receieved a letter from the council classing it as a HMO.

Thanks for your help. It is much appreciated. I will contact the council.

[jeffrey]

One is an international student on exchange and cannot supply a letter from the University saying they are a full time student.
Whyever not? Tell her that she must pay CT unless she has certificated student status.

[janner66]

Hi everyone,

Our 12 month lease is coming to an end with the letting agency and because the agency is absolutely useless, we have decided to rent directly from the landlord. The lease has stayed the same apart from one change. The landlord has asked us whether we can stop our direct debit for the council tax and he pay it instead; We would then add the council tax to the rent.

He says this is because he has asked for planning permision on the back of the house which is about to expire and if he pays the council tax he can ask for a time extension incase he wants to move back into the property.

We rang the council and they say the planning permission application expired last July.

Is there any other reason he would want to pay the council tax? Does he perhaps get a tax break or some other benefit and the planning permission story is just a ruse? We don't mind paying the landlord the Council Tax but don't want to start decorating the house if we have to move out in 8 months.


Thanks everyone.

[Snorkerz]

No, do not agree to this - you are the resident, not the landlord, and the liability is yours. If LL decides not to pay, you will be pursued by the council.

[mariner]

Unless the Council deem the property an HMO for C Tax purposes ie 2 or more tenants with seperate Leases, not a joint Lease listing several tenants. In which case the LL is resp for C Tax AIUI.
The planning permission sounds iffy. If the LL failed to pay C Tax the tenants would remain liable and may show up on council computer as C Tax evaders

[Snorkerz]

If the LL failed to pay C Tax the tenants would remain liable and may show up on council computer as C Tax evadersAnd Council Tax debt is one of the few you can still be imprisoned for!

[davecoker]

Another reason I can think of is that he may want to sell the property in the future and to avoid capital gains tax (if there is any gain these days!) he could claim that the property has been his main residence for a while and to back this up he would produce the council tax bill...a bit spurious I know but then I know someone who has done this in the past..

[janner66]

Thanks for all the replies.

He has worded the contract to say he is liable for any council tax arrears so I am not concerned about any lapses in payment. I spoke to my dad who thinks it is a tax relief "work around". Can the landlord claim 20% of the council tax back if he pays it as the landlord?

We are going to have a showdown with him and ask him exactly why he wants to pay the tax. If we don't get a straight answer we will move out (again!). We are forever moving due to dodgy agencies and now a dodgy landlord. All we want to do is rent the house long term and make it nice by decorating it at our own cost. The house is always immaculate and looked after. You would have thought a landlord would want to keep us!

[Snorkerz]

He has worded the contract to say he is liable for any council tax arrears so I am not concerned about any lapses in payment. !That will not affect the councils decision as to whom is liable for council tax. It may mean that you could subsequently sue the landlord to recover any CT you have had to pay (assuming you could enforce it), but it won't stop the council pursuing you.

[Snorkerz]

You DO NOT have to move out OR sign a new contract. The law provides that if an AST expires, it automatically becomes a statutory periodic tenancy with exactly the same terms except for anything to do with notice. Essentially, you have to give one months notice to leave* and the landlord has to give 2 months notice* (s21) before he can even commence proceedings to gain possession.
* for both of there, on a monthly contract they must expire on the same day of the month as the fixed term AST did
The landlord can not just say - that's it, your 12 months are up, off you go! http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/being_evicted/0-21

[dagardner105]

Hi all,

I was hoping you can give me some advice.

Early in 2010, I rented a House for a short period (12 weeks) due to a gap between my house sale and completion of my purchase. The Tenancy was arranged by Foxtons and included a provision that the Landlord would pay the Council Tax. It is crystal clear with no ambiguity.

Two weeks ago, Elmbridge Council sent me a letter (the first I have ever received on this matter) stating they had Liability Order from Magistrates against me and if I did not pay, they would instruct certified Bailiffs against me. Quite a shock I can tell you.

On further research, it appears that Elmbridge do indeed have a claim on me as the Occupier and I will have to pay the bill and pursue the Landlord privately through Money Claim Online/Small Claims. Apparently, I am higher up the liability list that a non-occupying owner. The Landlord has ignored all calls and text messages. I have also sent letters to them.

The questions are:


Is there any way I can force Elmbridge to switch liability to the Landlord. They have seen the Tenancy Agreement and whilst they "sympathise", it is still my liability from their perspective.
How should I proceed against the Landlord? They appear to know this loophole as I have been told their are multiple non-payments against different short term tenants for this address. Should I go round to their address in person to speak to them (I have their home address).


Any help would be gratefully received.

Thanks

David

[jjlandlord]

At this point, I think you should pay the owed council tax yourself and quickly. I don't think there is any space for negotiation with the council.

Then, as you said, you should pursue the matter with the LL to get the money back.
If you have not done so yet, send a letter demanding refund as per the terms of your agreement. Then a letter before action. And finally start a money claim online.

[dagardner105]

Thanks for your response. I will pay them tomorrow, they had given me a week extension in good faith anyway to try to persuade the LL to pay. No such luck. Just now need to make sure I follow the correct pre-action protocol.

[dekaspace]

I started one course which was a 3 year course but left after the 1st year but was still enrolled at start of 2nd just decided to change to a different department.

So I lived in a flat from June to September just to have time away from the town where I was at Uni as I was getting fed up of it.

Recieved a letter from council today stating I owe CT from June to September, when I explained I was a student they said that because I changed course I wasnt classified as a continuing student so my exemption ran out in June so I need to pay those 3/4 months

I said that currently I am on benefits(though still studying full time) so there was no way I could afford to pay money towards it(it is only £60 but I dont have any credit cards or overdrafts) and they just said if I dont pay within a few days they will issue a court warrant(I think) which means they take money direct from benefits.

So who is in the right here? I have a friend in same town with same problem, yet I also know others who have changed courses and not had a problem.

And why now tell me? They claim its as the new CT year is due.

[IronsE11]

I'm sorry to say but he LA are correctly applying the CTax regs here.

A Student exemption ends when the couse ends. If you quit after completing your first year, your course is treated as ending in June, with your new course starting in September. When you complete your current course, your exemption will end from June 2013 not September 2013!

You are probably being threatened with a court warrant because we are approaching the end of the financial year, although it is unusual for the LA not to have followed up non-payment of CTax earlier (unless of course they weren't aware of the change in your circumstances).

[Sad S]

Can your University not provide you with a certificate stating that you were a full time student during those 3 or 4 months, from June to September 2010? Can you demonstrate to your Uni what you actually were doing over the summer - ie studying full time?

Were you living in the same University town during that period as before and after the summer?

Had you applied for, and were you in receipt of Local Housing Allowance for the summer period?

[Emma1973]

Try not to get it to the stage where it goes to court because they'll slap huge court fees on it. Call them back up and try to negotiate a repayment plan with them to spread it over the next couple of months, they will usually do this.

[dekaspace]

Well I started my 2nd year of the course just in first week decided to change, so I was enrolled for the modules as usual and still classed as a continuing student by the university.

They claimed their system just didnt get round to contacting me till now!

[dekaspace]

Can your University not provide you with a certificate stating that you were a full time student during those 3 or 4 months, from June to September 2010? Can you demonstrate to your Uni what you actually were doing over the summer - ie studying full time?

Were you living in the same University town during that period as before and after the summer?

Had you applied for, and were you in receipt of Local Housing Allowance for the summer period?

Yep got LHA all the way through, before and now as I dont get student loans.

I was living in a different town before summer and now after summer am back in the original town(where CT hasnt been an issue)

[IronsE11]

I started one course which was a 3 year course but left after the 1st year but was still enrolled at start of 2nd just decided to change to a different department.

Apologies, I misunderstood your circumstances and my original reply is not accurate.

I've spoken to a Council Tax expert who has confirmed that you are treated as a student whilst you are enrolled. Therefore if you can provide proof that you were enrolled and started your 2nd year at University in Septmeber, you should have your exemption for the summer period reinstated.

Any gap in exemption will only be for the period between your old course ending and your new one starting.

[Moderator1]

Several largely similar questions on separate threads have been merged into this thread (hence the repetitive nature of answers).

[mariner]

The OP has not stated whether the house is shared occupancy with all tenants having their own bedroom and poss en suite and with access to / sharing all other parts of the house or whether it is divided into 4 self-contained bedits.

HMO requirement for C Tax is diff to that for Registered HMOs.

OP should take the Tenancy agreement signed by T1 to C Tax dept and let them decide
He could also post up the rel sec of the T&Cs
When advertising a rented prop it is assumed the rent quoted is bare rent unless otherwise stated IMO