Gas Safety Check

[MrWoof]

I have a tenant who is leaving about a month after the gas safety check is due, naturally, this will be done but I have been told that I will need a new certificate when the new tenant moves in. Anyone know if this is correct?
As a follow on to this, is there any leeway in the date, for example, a car MOT can be done up to a month before it is due and is dated from the old one, is there a similar system on gas checks or must I get one done before the due date if necessary?

[red40]

No you dont need a new gas safety certificate for the annual safety check, however as a landlord you are required to carry out ongoing maintenance, which you will need to ensure that gas fittings/appliances are safe to use before re-letting.

And

Although the landlords safety check may be carried out at any time within a twelve month period, the certificate will run from the date of the check and within twelve months thereafter.

[gas chap]

Yes you do need a new gas safety certificate every 12 months under gas regulations and each time a change of tennant takes place. If in your case you were a regular client of a gas engineer, it was readily established that the property is safe and up to standard, then i am sure that the full charge would not be charged. Nevertheless an inspection would still need to take place.

But the short answer is yes every time, and the previous commentator is unfortunately misinformed.

[gas chap]

this link may be of use to all

http://www.corgi-gas-safety.com/section_about/documents/GassafetyinrentedaccommodationJan2005_000.pdf

[red40]

Unfortunately gas chap you seem to be misinformed and misunderstand what the gas safety regulstions say, may I suggest you go and read the above link, page two, column 4, fourth and fifth bullet point down and reiterate what a landlord needs to do.

Then go to the current Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 and tell me where in the gas safety regs is says every time a landlord relets within a 12 month period, you need a new gas safety certificate, perhaps I can save you some time, it doesn't say it anywhere.

But as learning curve for yourself, you may want to read the gas safety regs, section 36, followed by the guidance (paragraph 221 & 226) for section 36 and take on board what sec 36(6)(b) and take on board what is legally stated then you wont be as misinformed as you appear to be yourself.

Before you go quoting what the leaflet says about making appliances safe before new tenants move in, I can only refer you back to my original post about ongoing maintenance and that is all the landlord ha to do. The landlord only has to have the appliancve gas safety checked within a twelve month period. Although there are some landlords who do safety check every time a new tenant moves in as they are lead to believe you need one, not necessary if you have a good experienced and knowledgeable gas installer, need I say more?

Edit:- from your original post it seems to me that you are confusing annual gas safety check with an inspection (i.e ongoing maintenance of a gas appliance) which is also another of the landlord responsibility. But back to the original question of this thread, no you dont need a gas safety check every time you move a tenant in, you are required to provide a new tenant with the last gas safety certificate and the landlord shall ensure that all appliances are safe for use (totally different from what the original poster asked).

Hope that clarifies this for you and you can carry on the good work!

Next you will be telling me you cant fit a gas hob on a flexible hose :)

[MrWoof]

Thanks for that people, I think I'll play safe. A new certificate followed by an inspection for the new tenant.

[Ericthelobster]

But back to the original question of this thread, no you dont need a gas safety check every time you move a tenant in, you are required to provide a new tenant with the last gas safety certificate and the landlord shall ensure that all appliances are safe for use (totally different from what the original poster asked).Absolutely, I quite agree.

Having said that - if we're saying that a once-over by a CORGI (not the issue of a new certificate) is still needed between tenants, what happens with holiday lets each time a new tenant moves in? Plus with the price of gas fitters these days, I can't imagine that you'll find one prepared to be called out to do this for much less than the cost of issuing a new certificate anyway.


Next you will be telling me you cant fit a gas hob on a flexible hose :)Well, don't know what the relevance of that one is, but no you can't! :) (as of 20 Nov 2004 as far as I'm aware...)

[red40]

A holiday let, chalet, narrow boat, B & B, caravan are also covered if the stay is less that 28 days a copy of the gas safety check has to be displayed in a prominent position with in the premises.

A 'once over' between tenants isn't required, but having said that it is an offence for the responsible person to allow the use of any fittings or appliances they have reason to believe is faulty.

PS, what happened on the 20 November, eric. Didn't know that the legisaltion had changed can you find a link or further info. Always looking for new amendments to the gas safety regs, but wasn't aware hob connections had changed :D lucky I haven't fitted one recently :eek:

[Ericthelobster]

what happened on the 20 November, eric. Didn't know that the legisaltion had changed can you find a link or further info. Always looking for new amendments to the gas safety regs, but wasn't aware hob connections had changed I can't find a specific link, but as I understand it there was an amendment to the relevant British standard (BS 6172) which took effect on that date, which included banning flexible pipes for hobs. I'm not paying 60 quid to download a copy though! I expect it would be mentioned somewhere at http://www.corgi-gas.com, but not being a CORGI I can't get in!

[red40]

Found the article in the gas installer magazine, eric ;)

Has to be a rigid conection unless otherwise stated by the appliance manufacturers :cool:

[gas chap]

Then go to the current Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 and tell me where in the gas safety regs is says every time a landlord relets within a 12 month period, you need a new gas safety certificate, perhaps I can save you some time, it doesn't say it anywhere.

guidance to 36(1) - (10) 226 states when tenants vacate premises, landlords need to ensure that gas fittings/appliances are safe before reletting. Tenants may have removed appliances unsafely(eg leaving open-ended pipes, having shut off the emergency control valve), or left their appliances in place. Appropriate checks should be carried out and any unsafe equipment be rectified or removed before a new tenancy begins - see also paragraphs 216 and 218. It is also recommended that installation pipework be inspected and tested for soundness before property is re-let.



But as learning curve for yourself, you may want to read the gas safety regs, section 36, followed by the guidance (paragraph 221 & 226) for section 36 and take on board what sec 36(6)(b) and take on board what is legally stated then you wont be as misinformed as you appear to be yourself.

Before you go quoting what the leaflet says about making appliances safe before new tenants move in, I can only refer you back to my original post about ongoing maintenance and that is all the landlord ha to do. The landlord only has to have the appliancve gas safety checked within a twelve month period. Although there are some landlords who do safety check every time a new tenant moves in as they are lead to believe you need one, not necessary if you have a good experienced and knowledgeable gas installer, need I say more?

I believe the above paragraph refers to a comment in another thread.

Edit:- from your original post it seems to me that you are confusing annual gas safety check with an inspection (i.e ongoing maintenance of a gas appliance) which is also another of the landlord responsibility. But back to the original question of this thread, no you dont need a gas safety check every time you move a tenant in, you are required to provide a new tenant with the last gas safety certificate and the landlord shall ensure that all appliances are safe for use (totally different from what the original poster asked).

Furthermore, manufacturers documents constitute the law with respect for that appliance. In which it generally states that a periodical service is carried out on the appliance and this would cover various aspects of that appliance which requires annual maintenance. It would be or should be pointed out by the engineer that a service is recommended, should the landlord not wish to carry out said service, then the engineer should note it on the paperwork.

The reason for this is as i originally stated to protect and indemnify the gas engineer should an incident arise that caused injury or death to a person or damage to a property. As i also stated in case of gas you are guilty until proven innocent. As such I would not think that anyone would want to stand up in court and say i didn't maintain the appliance in accordance with manufacturers legally binding documentation because the gas Regulations state an annual safety check is all i needed to do....
Guidance can be interpretted as you wish but if you do everything you should not the minimum you can get away with then you would easily be able to prove your innocence should it come to it.

Hope that clarifies this for you and you can carry on the good work!

Next you will be telling me you cant fit a gas hob on a flexible hose :)

I'm sure i didn't mean to cause offence by my original post but as such it seems to have. I apologise.

[red40]

No offence gas chap :cool:

You see now you are confusing me, I am just about to post and catch a glimpse of my thread and I see you have added parts to my answer and here am I thinking I didn't write that.


guidance to 36(1) - (10) 226 states when tenants vacate premises, landlords need to ensure that gas fittings/appliances are safe before reletting. Tenants may have removed appliances unsafely(eg leaving open-ended pipes, having shut off the emergency control valve), or left their appliances in place. Appropriate checks should be carried out and any unsafe equipment be rectified or removed before a new tenancy begins - see also paragraphs 216 and 218. It is also recommended that installation pipework be inspected and tested for soundness before property is re-let

This is the landlords duty to carry out with on-going maintenace. Most gas fitters I know, myself included call it a 'test and turn on'.


Furthermore, manufacturers documents constitute the law with respect for that appliance. In which it generally states that a periodical service is carried out on the appliance and this would cover various aspects of that appliance which requires annual maintenance.

Which as you know an appliance service is different to what the original poster asked about a new certificate for every new tenant.


As such I would not think that anyone would want to stand up in court and say i didn't maintain the appliance in accordance with manufacturers legally binding documentation because the gas Regulations state an annual safety check is all i needed to do...

Again I refer to section 36 which doesn't just ask landlords for an annual gas safety check, the landlord also has a duty under section 36 for on-going maintenace of any gas appliance, fitting, flueway, etc, he owns.

Sorry about the cutting of quotes :cool: I hope this makes sense, GC has added answers to my post dated 19-02-2005 and added them as my quote to his post :confused:

You dont need to apologise GC, I was answering the original thread writers query about LGSR, I think you may have had 40 or so landlords panicking about new tenants with your answer:eek:

[gas chap]

Hmmm i think,

But the landlord is not comepetent to check the installation after a tenant moves (36/226 guidance) out so therefore (36/4) an HSE approved engineer needs to check the installation. As such the only way to certify that is to issue another Landlord certificate for the landlord. guidance 36/226 does not suggest as you suggest
"This is the landlords duty to carry out with on-going maintenace. Most gas fitters I know, myself included call it a 'test and turn on'."

Because a soundness cannot be carried out by the landlord.

The quoted guidance i cited does not mention maintenance, I agree (36/2) and guidance 216 place the onus on the landlord to maintain the fittings. I am suggesting that the only person competent to do that is a person approved under HSE (36/4) What i am suggesting is by use of the manufacturer's documentation that suggests an annual service and hence a service should be carried out annually, which would make sense to combine with a landlord safety check.

Now in specific answer to the original question i still maintain another landlord certificate should be issued if a tenant moves out by virtue of the guidance issued in 36/226 as originally quoted in my previous passage.
The maintenance however would remain on a 12month basis from the date of the last maintenance carried out.

over to you chap :)

Ps never my intention to scare landlords, but legislation is scary because as i mentioned guilty until you can prove you're innocent is the position with the law.

[red40]

But the landlord is not comepetent to check the installation after a tenant moves (36/226 guidance) out so therefore (36/4) an HSE approved engineer needs to check the installation. As such the only way to certify that is to issue another Landlord certificate for the landlord.

No a registered fitter will issue a gas safety inspection report for the purposes of a test and turn on.


guidance 36/226 does not suggest as you suggest
"This is the landlords duty to carry out with on-going maintenace. Most gas fitters I know, myself included call it a 'test and turn on'."

Ok I will recite what 226 actually says (copyright from ACOP, gas afety regs 1998) ?:-

226 When tenants vacate premises, landlords need to ensure that gas fittings/appliances are safe before re-letting Tenants may have removed appliances unsafely, or left their appliances. appropriate checks should be carried out and any unsafe equipment either rectified or remomved before a new tenancy begins. It is also recommended that installation pipework be inspected and tested for soundness before the property is re-let.

Now that seems pretty clear to me, doesn't say the ladnlord has to issue a new LGSR, says he should make the gas installation safe or ensure it is safe and the only way he can do that is to get a gas fitter to come and test the installation, not carry out an annual gas safety check, two different things altogether.


hence a service should be carried out annually, which would make sense to combine with a landlord safety check.

Wouldn't we all like to do that ;)


Now in specific answer to the original question i still maintain another landlord certificate should be issued if a tenant moves out by virtue of the guidance issued in 36/226 as originally quoted in my previous passage.

Refer you back to the guidance of 226. Which isn't asking for anything else apart from the appliances and pipework are in a safe condition. Totally from what an annual safety check is.


Because a soundness cannot be carried out by the landlord.


you do know that installation pipework isn't covered on an annual gas safety check dont you and that the gas safetycheck is only the minimum required standard and if that is what the landlord asks for that is what he is entitled to get, nothing more nothing less and as you say any observations noted and passed to the responsible person/s. It is upto the landlord if he wishes (foolishly) to ignore any comments a competent gas fitter notes on any paperwork, report, certificate, RIDDOR form, etc and most of the time the note says a 'service ' is recommended.

But we are wandering off the original post now :cool:

[gas chap]

Red, i still disagree partly as the pipe work installation is the basic test that must be carried out when on site. Further the landlord must ensure... he must ensure that it is safe and to do that he will need a competent engineer he the landlord cannot verif it. And for an engineer to come out and check i submit again the only way he will do this is to issue a further landlord certificate.

email me if you wish to discuss further.

[bobber]

Yes you do need a new gas safety certificate every 12 months under gas regulations and each time a change of tennant takes place. If in your case you were a regular client of a gas engineer, it was readily established that the property is safe and up to standard, then i am sure that the full charge would not be charged. Nevertheless an inspection would still need to take place.

But the short answer is yes every time, and the previous commentator is unfortunately misinformed.

I have a HMO of 7 tenants, theoretically I could be taking in a new tenant every 3.7 weeks, are you saying I would need a New Certificate every 3.7 weeks?

[red40]

Red, i still disagree partly as the pipe work installation is the basic test that must be carried out when on site.

Since when?

I haven't been notified by CORGI that the annual gas safety check has changed to include a full gas tightness test. If you are working on a gas appliance only there is no need to carry out any gas tightness test on the entire installation.

I wont bother with the full text about working on an appliance but you are responsible for the effectiveness of the flue, combustion air, operating pressure/heat input and the operation so as to ensure safety, reg 26 (9) or if you want a full appliance checklist is in appendix one of the previous ACOP guidance or the corgi handbook, this is a minimum that full fills the annual gas safety check. However saying that I haven't come across a landlord yet who doesn't ask for a tightness test, so I do one as on-going maintenance.

I dont see what emailling you will acomplish gas chap as we seem to agree to disagree :)


are you saying I would need a New Certificate every 3.7 weeks? If gas chap did it it would appear the answer is yes, if I did it to what the regulations stipulate then no, as long as you have got a valid annual gas safety certificate, of which you would give your new tenant a copy to prove you have had it carried out in the 12 month timescale you are required by the GAs Safety(Installation and Use) Regulations.

[red40]

I thought gas chap that I would take the bull by the horns and contact CORGI so landlords aren't in anyway misled by some of you comments about the annual gas safety and also some 300 views have been watching this thread with interest. It seems that you dont believe what I am quoting to you as per the Gas Safety Regs so here goes, my question to our CORGI technical helpline via email as follows



----- Original Message -----
T** M******** [mailto:************@ntlworld.com]
Posted At: 19 February 2005 10:36
Posted To: Customer Service Enquiries
Conversation: Landlord gas safety query
Subject: Landlord gas safety query

Dear sir/madam

I have had a my annual landlords gas safety check carried out in November 2004.

My question is do I need to get another landlords gas safety check done or can I give the new in-coming tenant the certificate from November 2004 to prove the appliances have been safety checked and just check for any old or defect appliances the previous tenant has left.

yours faithfully

Red40 (didn't actually sign it red40 though)


CORGI response:-



----- Original Message -----
From: Mark *****
To: t***************@ntlworld.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: Landlord gas safety query

If the record is still current (less than 12 months old) it can run its term. I would agree that you should get your installer to carry out a void check on the property between lets, as recommended by the Gas Safety Regulations.

Hope this helps.
Regards
Mark *****
Technical Officer
CORGI

Hope this helps some of the responsible landlords on this site :D and gas chap!

A 'void check' or 'test and turn on' is completely different as I explained earlier in this thread to the annual landlords gas safety check :cool:

And thats that for now, hope this helps some of you from being ripped off by so called competent gas installers ;)

[GasElecMan]

Very interesting discussion.
I am both a qualified electrician with inspection and testing certification as well as being a registered Corgi gas installer.
Some of my clients, letting agents and private landlord carry out re-inspections at change of tenancy.
I can only say that I have found problems with installations at re-inspection at time of tenancy change that were not present at time of the annual inspection, some potentially dangerous.
Although the additional cost is unavoidable it would be better to be covered by an inspection document rather than take the chance of being sued. I suppose like all regulation changes, someone will have to get injured or at worst killed before it would become statutory to carry out such re-inspections