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View Full Version : Is notice period less than two months if tenant a non payer ?



Robin
14-03-2007, 17:49 PM
I have a regular late payer of rent. I'm having to chase him up for rent every month. His tenancy is beyond the 6 month period. I believe I have to give at least two months notice. Such that that includes at least two whole rental periods. So the best bet is to serve notice on last day of rental period before next months rent due. Except the moment I serve notice on him I just know he'll stop paying rent altogether. That means the last two months he won't pay rent. Or is it the case that as he regularly pays rent late I can give him less than two months notice ?
For sure it seems to me tenants have too many rights. When they fail to pay their rent, usually becuase they think the pub or some other luxury is more important, the law should make it possible to boot them out with just one weeks notice as far as I'm concerned.
Cheers for any tips.

Ericthelobster
14-03-2007, 18:14 PM
as he regularly pays rent late I can give him less than two months notice ?Errrrrrr...... no.

Joannepowell
14-03-2007, 18:40 PM
You could consider the section 8 route Robin. Though the grounds would be discretionary and waiting for a court hearing day can mean it takes as long as the section 21 accelerated possession procedure.

By the way, you are being a little naive if you think you only stand to lose two months rent if he choses not to pay when served with notice. If the tenant wants to be a pain in the rear he could chose to wait for you to get a court order for possession (which can take up to an additional three to four months).

To add insult to injury the tenant could also chose to ignore the court order and then you would have to call in the court bailiffs! If they are busy you can probably kiss goodbye to another 4 to 6 weeks rent! Making a total of about 6mths lost rent!!! :eek:

Sorry if I sound blunt but it is the way it is I'm afraid....

Good luck with it anyway.

Kind Regards

J

rewop46
14-03-2007, 20:04 PM
Joanne, you're trying to cheer him up aren't you?

There is the distressed landlord's help line of course - it's called the Samaritans!!!:eek:

Joannepowell
14-03-2007, 21:17 PM
Of course I was trying to cheer him up rewop! If I'd been trying to depress him I would of warned Robin that if the tenant turned really nasty he could also run up £1000's in debt (in the landlords name) and get £1000's in catalogue goods (in the landlords name) and then could go on to totally trash the place before abandoning it!!!

Don't forget I'm in court tomoz with my THIEVING TENANT so members will have to forgive me for being a little pessimistic! :eek:

J

DianeB
14-03-2007, 21:43 PM
Phew, its a good thing you didn't mention that to him then - he would certainly be reaching for the phone for the samaritans if you had!

Ericthelobster
14-03-2007, 21:47 PM
Don't forget I'm in court tomoz with my THIEVING TENANTHave you trademarked that phrase yet?!:eek:

Good luck for tomorrow!

Joannepowell
14-03-2007, 22:53 PM
No but it's copyrighted so don't even think about pinching it Eric! :D

J

Joannepowell
14-03-2007, 22:56 PM
By the way - forgot to mention if tenant is really, really crafty and rewop's property is owned outright then arn't I right in thinking that the tenant may even have secured a mortgage on the rental property??? :eek:

J

rewop46
15-03-2007, 07:22 AM
I think I will take my own advice here - anyone know the Samaritans number?

I might even change my name from rewop to sadoldgit.:(

lorenzo
15-03-2007, 07:30 AM
Just think of all those 00,000's of cap gain though ;)

Joannepowell
15-03-2007, 07:42 AM
I think I will take my own advice here - anyone know the Samaritans number?

I might even change my name from rewop to sadoldgit.


You might find the line engaged rewop.... cos I've been on to them all night!!! :p You should find the line becomes free at about 11am cos I'm due in court at 11.15!!!

J

PS. Wanted to change my name to BEENHADHASBEEN but don't think there's a facility to change your name once registered. If anybody knows different can you let me know how to change my name on here cos I'd been keen to stop using my real name! Thx in advance guys.

Joannepowell
15-03-2007, 07:44 AM
Just think of all those 00,000's of cap gain though

How many of those zeros would be left after having to totally revamp the property when some bugger trashes your place Lorenzo? :eek:

J

lorenzo
15-03-2007, 08:52 AM
How many of those zeros would be left after having to totally revamp the property when some bugger trashes your place Lorenzo?

J
Yeah a major bummer.

Can this sort of thing be insured against in the UK?

...and, can the "repairs" be deducted from tax or are these deemed as capital improvements?

One "guru" here stated that a tenant who trashes the joint almost does you a favour. (redecorate to get a higher rent, additional depreciation deductions etc)


I do use the term "guru" very loosely though ;)

Robin
17-03-2007, 08:55 AM
You could consider the section 8 route Robin. Though the grounds would be discretionary and waiting for a court hearing day can mean it takes as long as the section 21 accelerated possession procedure.

By the way, you are being a little naive if you think you only stand to lose two months rent if he choses not to pay when served with notice. If the tenant wants to be a pain in the rear he could chose to wait for you to get a court order for possession (which can take up to an additional three to four months).

To add insult to injury the tenant could also chose to ignore the court order and then you would have to call in the court bailiffs! If they are busy you can probably kiss goodbye to another 4 to 6 weeks rent! Making a total of about 6mths lost rent!!! :eek:

Sorry if I sound blunt but it is the way it is I'm afraid....

Good luck with it anyway.

Kind Regards

JJoanne Thanks for your post
His rent cheque has just bounced !
Under a section 8 I understand I can have him out in 14 days.
If he doesn't go in that time can I change the locks after 14 days or is a physical eviction by order of a court req'd ?
I just spotted the section 8 notice says "Where the landlord is seeking possession on grounds 1, 2, 5 to 7, 9 or 16, court proceedings cannot begin
earlier than 2 months from the date this notice is served on you"
What a joke, so it's no faster than a section 21 !
Why is the law so weighted in favour of the tenant ?
He took a nice holiday a month ago...... at my expense !
Also the stupid form doesn't define what grounds 1 to 16 are so I don't know which ground number is non payment of rent.

rewop46
17-03-2007, 09:42 AM
... He took a nice holiday a month ago...... at my expense !...



Robin When we first started this business many years ago one of our tenants gave us a sob story about losing her job just before Christmas. She was a single parent and didn't have the heart to throw her out.

The real reason was that she bought an expensive mountain bike for her daughter with our rent money - we knew how much it was because it was the same one we had planned to buy for our son.

Needless to say he never had one that Christmas. I never forgot that. :mad:

rewop

Joannepowell
17-03-2007, 09:47 AM
Joanne Thanks for your post
His rent cheque has just bounced !
Under a section 8 I understand I can have him out in 14 days.
If he doesn't go in that time can I change the locks after 14 days or is a physical eviction by order of a court req'd ?
I just spotted the section 8 notice says "Where the landlord is seeking possession on grounds 1, 2, 5 to 7, 9 or 16, court proceedings cannot begin
earlier than 2 months from the date this notice is served on you"
What a joke, so it's no faster than a section 21 !
Why is the law so weighted in favour of the tenant ?
He took a nice holiday a month ago...... at my expense !
Also the stupid form doesn't define what grounds 1 to 16 are so I don't know which ground number is non payment of rent.


Dear Robin

The following link will take you to the part of the housing act which gives the rounds for possession:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880050_en_13.htm#sdiv2

If you serve your tenant with a section 8 notice using the grounds relating to rent (grounds 8. 10 & 11) then you can start proceedings after just two weeks. However, only ground 8 is mandatory so if the tenant brings the arrears to below 2mths prior to a court hearing then you can not guarantee the judge awarding possession (because grounds 10 & 11 are discretionary).

I would serve both notices to be on the safe side. At least if the section 8 fails you will have the section 21 to fall back on. If the tenancy is already periodic you might find it quicker to actually serve the 21 and then use the accelerated possession procedure after the 2mths notice expires. You would then be able to chase for the arrears through small claims court action.

Best of luck

J

PS. Robin under no circumstances should you attempt to evict the tenant physically or change the locks! You will end up in court yourself for illegal eviction which is a serious offence! You MUST wait for the court to order possession. Even then, if the tenant does not vacate as per the order you will have to execute a warrant to get the court bailiffs to do the honours for you. This can take a few weeks if the bailiffs are busy!

Also, I know exactly what you mean about the law being weighted in favour of the tenant. The forthcoming TDS will be yet another chink to their armoour!

Joannepowell
17-03-2007, 10:01 AM
Robin When we first started this business many years ago one of our tenants gave us a sob story about losing her job just before Christmas. She was a single parent and didn't have the heart to throw her out.

The real reason was that she bought an expensive mountain bike for her daughter with our rent money - we knew how much it was because it was the same one we had planned to buy for our son.

Needless to say he never had one that Christmas. I never forgot that.

rewop


Rewop - you sould've opened a catalogue in your tenants name and then ordered goods to your hearts content! If you can't beat them - JOIN THEM!!!

My tenant had over £1k's worth of goods from catalogues opened in my name! These goods included a washing machine, a tumble dryer, a child's electric scooter, gent's leather jacket and a mobile phone. Reading the list the police produced was like reading the script from the end minutes of the generation game!!!

I know exactly how you felt about your son's bike. My 16yr daughter is still waiting for her new computer which was promised her this xmas just gone because of the £1,200+ that my thieving tenant owed in rent!!! Very depressing.... :mad:

J

rewop46
17-03-2007, 10:19 AM
Last post - anyone play the bugle?

Dianne This is definitely the last post this morning, I've got to go and fix one of my (good) tenant's extractor fan because he's getting all the ganga fumes from the tenant upstairs (true).

We had a very nice West Indian gentleman who came to rent our flat once. Paid a few month's in advance as well. A long story short again - he and his girlfriend were sending for tons of computer stuff using credit cards. I got suspicious so they scarpered.

Had a delivery of laptop computers and digital cameras soon after. I kept them safe. The police weren't interested and the despatching company said they were paid for!

My son may have not had a bike for the aforementioned Christmas but he certainly had a laptop for uni.

Is that justice or what? :cool:

rewop

Robin
17-03-2007, 10:29 AM
RobinThe real reason was that she bought an expensive mountain bike for her daughter with our rent money - we knew how much it was because it was the same one we had planned to buy for our son.Needless to say he never had one that Christmas. I never forgot that.rewopPeople get their priorities wrong. The roof their head along with food should come 1st before mountain bikes & holidays. My tenant unfortunately was stabbed in Sept 06 & seriously wounded. OK he's had problems & maybe sick pay was less or whatever. But he still managed to take a two week holiday in Jan... at my expense :eek:
We found another of our flats vacated recently without notice two weeks into the rental period. If ever when checking your online banking see you have a non payer it's essential to go round and check they haven't simply vacated without telling you. Of course he left the place filthy but half of his deposit is gone on the last months rent so if we paid out two or three hundred pounds it costs for a deep clean it'd be out of our pocket. So then the wife has to spend two days cleaning the place of three years of dirt including the usual patches mildew where they don't bother to air & heat the place properly. As far as I'm concerned deposits should be two months rent & tenants should never be able to stay in a place once their rent is one month overdue. This potential three or four months wait in total, is completely unfair on landlords.

Joanne
I'll serve a section 22 and an 8. Many thanks for the advice. I hope I cross the 't's and dot the 'i's OK & don't wind up wishing I'd got a solicitor instead to deal with it on the grounds the notices don't stick for some petty technical reason.
Incidently I'm guessing the TDS will mean in the event of the landlord needing the deposit to cover the last month's rent, it won't be available to the landlord as they'll probably say deposits are only available to cover damage. You know how these beaurocrats that don't live in the real world design schemes.

I just spotted this:
"Ground 8
Both at the date of the service of the notice under section 8 of this Act relating to the proceedings for possession and at the date of the hearing—
(a) if rent is payable weekly or fortnightly, at least thirteen weeks' rent is unpaid;
(b) if rent is payable monthly, at least three months' rent is unpaid;
(c) if rent is payable quarterly, at least one quarter's rent is more than three months in arrears; and
(d) if rent is payable yearly, at least three months' rent is more than three months in arrears;
and for the purpose of this ground "rent" means rent lawfully due from the tenant.
Part II
Grounds on which Court may order possession
Ground 9
Suitable alternative accommodation is available for the tenant or will be available for him when the order for possession takes effect."

So it looks like a section 8 wouldn't be effective unless 3 months rent is unpaid !
Also the non paying little darling must have alternative acommodation to move to bless him !
I'm thinking maybe I'm out of my depth here & it might be better to pay a solicitor get the tenant out.

Joannepowell
17-03-2007, 11:11 AM
People get their priorities wrong. The roof their head along with food should come 1st before mountain bikes & holidays. My tenant unfortunately was stabbed in Sept 06 & seriously wounded. OK he's had problems & maybe sick pay was less or whatever. But he still managed to take a two week holiday in Jan... at my expense :eek:

Think yourself lucky it was only a holiday Robin. My tenant buggered off to Cyprus to live (at my expense). I got a possession order and an order for her to pay rent arrears and costs (almost £3k) but I probably don't stand a cat in hells chance of getting it! If anybody reading this knows of a way of chasing her I would be keen to hear!


We found another of our flats vacated recently without notice two weeks into the rental period. If ever when checking your online banking see you have a non payer it's essential to go round and check they haven't simply vacated without telling you. Of course he left the place filthy but half of his deposit is gone on the last months rent so if we paid out two or three hundred pounds it costs for a deep clean it'd be out of our pocket. So then the wife has to spend two days cleaning the place of three years of dirt including the usual patches mildew where they don't bother to air & heat the place properly. As far as I'm concerned deposits should be two months rent & tenants should never be able to stay in a place once their rent is one month overdue. This potential three or four months wait in total, is completely unfair on landlords.

I believe it is entirely possible for landlords to request a deposit equivalent to 2mths rent. Though, this would make it difficult for a lot of possibly good tenants to secure a tenancy due to not being able to source such a high deposit. I have recently decided to start charging 6wks equivalent.

Joanne
I'll serve a section 22 and an 8. Many thanks for the advice. I hope I cross the 't's and dot the 'i's OK & don't wind up wishing I'd got a solicitor instead to deal with it on the grounds the notices don't stick for some petty technical reason.
Incidently I'm guessing the TDS will mean in the event of the landlord needing the deposit to cover the last month's rent, it won't be available to the landlord as they'll probably say deposits are only available to cover damage. You know how these beaurocrats that don't live in the real world design schemes.

Robign - it's a section 21 (periodic tenancy) notice NOT 22. The deposit money can be offsett against rent arrears as far as I am aware (so long as the tenancy agreement states that fact). I'm actually awaiting more info about the 'iguarantee' scheme which has a link provided in another thread. It looks like a good scheme in theory. You might want to take a look at it too.

I just spotted this:
"Ground 8
Both at the date of the service of the notice under section 8 of this Act relating to the proceedings for possession and at the date of the hearing—
(a) if rent is payable weekly or fortnightly, at least thirteen weeks' rent is unpaid;
(b) if rent is payable monthly, at least three months' rent is unpaid;
(c) if rent is payable quarterly, at least one quarter's rent is more than three months in arrears; and
(d) if rent is payable yearly, at least three months' rent is more than three months in arrears;
and for the purpose of this ground "rent" means rent lawfully due from the tenant.
Part II
Grounds on which Court may order possession
Ground 9
Suitable alternative accommodation is available for the tenant or will be available for him when the order for possession takes effect."

So it looks like a section 8 wouldn't be effective unless 3 months rent is unpaid !
Also the non paying little darling must have alternative acommodation to move to bless him !

There is an amendment to the housing act (1996 I think) which alters the times to 8 weeks for weekly and 2 months for monthly. It is the wording in the amendment that you would need to state on your section 8 notice.

& the alternative acommodation relates to ground 9 - which will have nothing to do with your case. It is grounds 8 (if 2mths arrears exist) and grounds 10 and 11 that you will be relying on.


Kind Regards

J

Robin
17-03-2007, 11:19 AM
Joanne
oops I meant 21 not 22. That was typo.
Sorry to hear about your runner to Cyprus. I sometimes think about buying more properties. I have 13. But then when this happens I don't think I have the stomache for it. It seems there are so many pitfalls in wording the notice I better seek legal advice or I might find after two months I'm back at square one because one word is missing or a comma is in the wrong place. The law isn't about rights & wrongs. It's about wording & process. The law's a complete a55 isn't it & all conjured up by worthless little swats on huge salaries. Honourable members or our beloved establishments & institutions :mad:

Joannepowell
17-03-2007, 11:26 AM
Joanne
oops I meant 21 not 22. That was typo.
Sorry to hear about your runner to Cyprus. I sometimes think about buying more properties. I have 13. But then when this happens I don't think I have the stomache for it. It seems there are so many pitfalls in wording the notice I better seek legal advice or I might find after two months I'm back at square one because one word is missing or a comma is in the wrong place. The law isn't about rights & wrongs. It's about wording & process. The law's a complete a55 isn't it & all conjured up by worthless little swats on huge salaries. Members or our beloved establishemnts & institutions :mad:


Robin

If you have 13 (unlucky for some) properties and this is the first time you've encountered this problem you should consider yourself very fortunate.

J

Robin
17-03-2007, 11:31 AM
Robin
If you have 13 (unlucky for some) properties and this is the first time you've encountered this problem you should consider yourself very fortunate.
JI guess so. I'm not supertitious. I do need of take account of the overall financial position by thinking of the excellent capital gain I've made from good gearing in a rising market with BTL mortgages over the last 10 years. As always though, equity doesn't pay bills.

Joannepowell
17-03-2007, 11:52 AM
I guess so. I'm not supertitious. I do need of take account of the overall financial position by thinking of the excellent capital gain I've made from good gearing in a rising market with BTL mortgages over the last 10 years. As always though, equity doesn't pay bills.


It does if you release it! :)

J

CashFlowInvestor
17-03-2007, 15:32 PM
Robin,

I've quickly gone through the postings and it reads like you're unlikely to get much joy from your existing tenant or following things through to court action.

No matter whether you are morally right or not, the Landlord & Tenant Act is biased towards the tenant, e.g. taking 4-6 weeks rental deposit but needing 2 months to reclaim the property, and longer if non-paying and refusing to move on.

Your quickest and most practical solution may well be to pay the tenant to move out. This may be hard to swallow, but start counting the costs and the stress in your mind if you have take things to the limit just to be on the right side of the argument. At least you may then reclaim the property in better shape than what a disgruntled tenant may leave it in.

Good luck anyway! :)

David

Joannepowell
17-03-2007, 15:43 PM
Robin,

I've quickly gone through the postings and it reads like you're unlikely to get much joy from your existing tenant or following things through to court action.

No matter whether you are morally right or not, the Landlord & Tenant Act is biased towards the tenant, e.g. taking 4-6 weeks rental deposit but needing 2 months to reclaim the property, and longer if non-paying and refusing to move on.

Your quickest and most practical solution may well be to pay the tenant to move out. This may be hard to swallow, but start counting the costs and the stress in your mind if you have take things to the limit just to be on the right side of the argument. At least you may then reclaim the property in better shape than what a disgruntled tenant may leave it in.

Good luck anyway!

David


David - do you by any chance have a wife by the name of adnil? :confused:

J

If answer no, just ignore this post. Put it down to mistaken identity...

Ericthelobster
17-03-2007, 16:07 PM
David - do you by any chance have a wife by the name of adnil?Oh, you mean Adnil Cash-Flowinvestor? ;)

(Just wondering what on earth was contained in the previous post (a first contribution) - other than a common first name - to make you think you knew the poster!)

Joannepowell
17-03-2007, 16:26 PM
Oh, you mean Adnil Cash-Flowinvestor?

(Just wondering what on earth was contained in the previous post (a first contribution) - other than a common first name - to make you think you knew the poster!)


Eric

No 1. reason was the common first name
No 2. the talk about us changing names
No 3. the fact it was a FIRST POST
No 4. the method of regaining possession evading the court route

Obviously all pure coincidences though... ignore me. :o

J

Robin
17-03-2007, 19:33 PM
Robin,
I've quickly gone through the postings and it reads like you're unlikely to get much joy from your existing tenant or following things through to court action.
No matter whether you are morally right or not, the Landlord & Tenant Act is biased towards the tenant, e.g. taking 4-6 weeks rental deposit but needing 2 months to reclaim the property, and longer if non-paying and refusing to move on.
Your quickest and most practical solution may well be to pay the tenant to move out. This may be hard to swallow, but start counting the costs and the stress in your mind if you have take things to the limit just to be on the right side of the argument. At least you may then reclaim the property in better shape than what a disgruntled tenant may leave it in.
Good luck anyway! :)

David
Thanks for the good wishes. That would depend on where he might have to move to. Unless there's the moving back with parents or a friend option he'd need a lot of cash to secure somewhere else to go.
He's been a good tenant for four years. I've just been to discuss things with him. He mentioned he was sick for some months after he was stabbed. His sick pay was less than the full salary. His previous partner ran up 15k credit card debt before they split. That costs £400 a month to service. I asked him why he'd paid for a holiday in the midst of his problems. Apparently that was paid for by his aunt as he was depressed after the assault. He's going to see an advisor on Monday. He can get criminal injuries compensation but that could take as long as a year so not much help now. Anyway taking all his unfortunate circumstances into account, I've decided to see what happens in the next week to see if he can come up with a rescue plan. Then I'll decide whether to serve notice because at the end of the day I have to cover my back. He mentioned something like an IVA or debt consolidation.

settloe_99
17-03-2007, 20:43 PM
He can get criminal injuries compensation but that could take as long as a year so not much help now. He mentioned something like an IVA or debt consolidation.

I was assaulted a few years ago and awarded crimanl injuries compensation. Needles to say I've not seen a penny yet!

As far as I know an IVA is the poor mans version of bankruptcy but I stand corrected :D

Joannepowell
17-03-2007, 20:53 PM
Robin, is the tenant still off work sick? If yes, could he not apply for housing benefit? It takes time to organise but they do back date it to the date of the claim being submitted and at least then you would at least know that something was going to be paid eventually.

J

Miffy
18-03-2007, 08:37 AM
He's been a good tenant for four years. I've just been to discuss things with him. He mentioned he was sick for some months after he was stabbed. His sick pay was less than the full salary. His previous partner ran up 15k credit card debt before they split. That costs £400 a month to service. I asked him why he'd paid for a holiday in the midst of his problems. Apparently that was paid for by his aunt as he was depressed after the assault.

Its so difficult in a case like this, isn't it? It could all be a load of bovine excreta, but if he's been a good tenant FOR 4 YEARS, I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, I am a soft touch for less convincing stories than this, so maybe shouldn't give advice there.

To make yourself feel better, maybe think about the fact that for the last 4 years he has saved you the cost of void periods etc. Karmic balance?

On the other hand, you do need to start preparing to protect yourself. Section 21 and section 8 needs to be served if only to concentrate his mind. You need to write him a letter stating that if he doesn't pay within 14 days of receipt you will take him to court under section 8. As to whether you serve s21 at the same time, its a matter for you to decide. Serving the s21 may make the T give up on trying to satisfy you but on the other hand it takes time to be enforceable so you want it done sooner rather than later. From other discussions on these boards it would seem that you can't directly link the s21 to rent arrears or else you risk voiding it, unless perhaps done verbally so its one person's word against another's if it came to it.

Robin
18-03-2007, 12:29 PM
Thanks for your replies.
He's back at work. I am suspicious he's put a padlock on the garage. It could be he still has the mercedes classic car he inherited a couple of years ago. That's worth around 14k, so if he does still have it then he's trying to hide it from his crediters. Except I shall ask when he rings me tomorrow if that's what's in the garage so there's not hiding it from me. If he still has the car then he gets a section 8 and 21 from me because I'm not going to let him hang on to it at my expense.
My only problem is the wording of the 21 & 8. I'm not sure how to word them correctly so as to avoid them being thrown out by some anally retentive pedantic old **** of a judge who's not the least bit interested in justice but happy to draw a fat salary out of our taxes for supposedly administering it.

jeffrey
18-03-2007, 15:38 PM
Thanks for your replies.
He's back at work. I am suspicious he's put a padlock on the garage. It could be he still has the mercedes classic car he inherited a couple of years ago. That's worth around 14k, so if he does still have it then he's trying to hide it from his crediters. Except I shall ask when he rings me tomorrow if that's what's in the garage so there's not hiding it from me. If he still has the car then he gets a section 8 and 21 from me because I'm not going to let him hang on to it at my expense.
My only problem is the wording of the 21 & 8. I'm not sure how to word them correctly so as to avoid them being thrown out by some anally retentive pedantic old **** of a judge who's not the least bit interested in justice but happy to draw a fat salary out of our taxes for supposedly administering it.

Be careful if that's how you propose to explain the legalities to a Judge who knows more than you do. If you err in the forms' contents, why should Judge overlook your error? Because you're such a nice person (not)?

Robin
18-03-2007, 16:16 PM
Be careful if that's how you propose to explain the legalities to a Judge who knows more than you do. If you err in the forms' contents, why should Judge overlook your error? Because you're such a nice person (not)?So I guess you think technicalities & pedantry are more important than justice, common sense & fairness ?
The fact is he hasn't paid his rent & he should vacate within 14 days or with a subsequent court order. Why should it be possible for a judge to pick on one word out of place on the section 21 or 8 then set me back another two months while the tenant lives rent free in the meantime. The tenant should go within the legal time frame......... period !
People shouldn't be able to play games with the law based on technicalities & wordings & judges should be the last people to facilitate such things.

lorenzo
18-03-2007, 17:44 PM
So I guess you think technicalities & pedantry are more important than justice, common sense & fairness ?
The fact is he hasn't paid his rent & he should vacate within 14 days or with a subsequent court order. Why should it be possible for a judge to pick on one word out of place on the section 21 or 8 then set me back another two months while the tenant lives rent free in the meantime. The tenant should go within the legal time frame......... period !
People shouldn't be able to play games with the law based on technicalities & wordings & judges should be the last people to facilitate such things.
Whilst infuriating, judges have to draw a line somewhere with regards to wording, otherwise a note scribbled on the back of a fag packet in Sumerian cuneiforms could be construed as notice.

There has to be a standard so less is left up to discretion.

Miffy
19-03-2007, 07:14 AM
Why should it be possible for a judge to pick on one word out of place on the section 21 or 8 then set me back another two months while the tenant lives rent free in the meantime. The tenant should go within the legal time frame......... period !
People shouldn't be able to play games with the law based on technicalities & wordings & judges should be the last people to facilitate such things.

I see where you are coming from. The S21 does not have to be in a set form but it DOES have to get the date right. Someone (I think Worldlife) pointed out that the lawpack S21 has a bit where it states that "if this notice is otherwise invalid, then it will take effect as follows..." which seems a good idea to me and I will be using it on the S21 I am now going to have to issue:( . I can't immediately lay my hands on the link but I will have a look for it. If you are really worried about the forms, you could order the Lawpack ones for yourself. Link to thread (particularly post 5) http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=5387

The S8 looks potentially more complicated, but since its in a set form, hopefully its just a case of following it through and filling in the blanks. You can download these or purchase them.

Of course, you could always hire a solicitor to do it for you. If your T has means to pay it could be worth it as you can add the costs to the judgement, I believe.

(There are some proposals to change the S21 so it can be served with 2 months notice irrespective of the rent day and even within the initial 6 month period. This would make life more sensible, but as yet they are gathering dust somewhere...)

jeffrey
19-03-2007, 08:53 AM
I see where you are coming from. The S21 does not have to be in a set form but it DOES have to get the date right. Someone (I think Worldlife) pointed out that the lawpack S21 has a bit where it states that "if this notice is otherwise invalid, then it will take effect as follows..." which seems a good idea to me and I will be using it on the S21 I am now going to have to issue:( . I can't immediately lay my hands on the link but I will have a look for it. If you are really worried about the forms, you could order the Lawpack ones for yourself. Link to thread (particularly post 5) http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=5387

The S8 looks potentially more complicated, but since its in a set form, hopefully its just a case of following it through and filling in the blanks. You can download these or purchase them.

Of course, you could always hire a solicitor to do it for you. If your T has means to pay it could be worth it as you can add the costs to the judgement, I believe.

(There are some proposals to change the S21 so it can be served with 2 months notice irrespective of the rent day and even within the initial 6 month period. This would make life more sensible, but as yet they are gathering dust somewhere...)

On last point: s.21 CAN already be served during fixed term.

Joannepowell
19-03-2007, 09:06 AM
Morning Jeffrey, Miffy & co

Just to add to Jeffrey's post - in the event the new legislation was ever brought in on the strength of the report Miffy refers to then the 6 mth AST as we know it would cease to exist. It would be replaced by a 'standard contract' and would not be liable to a minimum fixed term. This would be good news for those landlords that are 'stung' by defaulting early tenants very early into a new tenancy as the s21 could be issued immediately with the two months notice from date of service.

Us landlords all know what a difference such changes could make and so guess what - chances are it will never happen! I've had no further contact with Phil Woolas so needless to say the report is still sat gathering dust (given it was commissioned in 2003 it is yet another example of tenants getting the upper hand and a waste of tax payers money!).

J

PS. Anybody wanting to read up a bit more about the draft bill referred to please see the posts in the following thread

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=5080

Miffy
19-03-2007, 10:29 AM
On last point: s.21 CAN already be served during fixed term.

Whoops- meant that the S21 would be enforceable before the end of the 6 months. In fact, at the moment IF THE S21 IS SERVED BEFORE THE END OF THE FIXED TERM then it doesn't have to expire after the end of a rent period either, which is an important point I didn't state either!