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View Full Version : Question Time (3) All about Section 21 Notices



PaulF
25-06-2005, 13:43 PM
You should all have a go at these questions as it affects all landlords. Assume that all the Section 21 notices have been completed correctly and are of the correct version. You may also assume all periodic tenancies are monthly and start on the 1st of each month. You will need a calendar and your wits!



On 28 April 2005 on your way home from work at 6.00 p.m. you hand deliver a S.21 notice through the letterbox at the tenant's address giving him notice to end a periodic AST after 30 June 2005. Will this be valid?
You do exactly the same as in (1) but the tenant is at home and you give it to him personally, and he even signs a receipt. Would this make any difference to your answer to the previous question?
On 27 April 2005 you hand deliver through the letterbox a S.21 Notice to the tenants at a property where they both live addressed to "The Tenants" and marked "Private & Confidential" to end a periodic AST after 30 June 2005. Will this be valid?
You are the landlord of 4 self-contained flats, three of which are currently occupied (A, B & C) by single tenants all of whom have been on periodic AST's since the beginning of this year. On 28 April 2005 on your way home from work at 6.00 p.m. you deliver by hand through the letterbox of the entrance door to the house, a S.21 Notice to end the tenancy of Flat 'A' after 30 June 2005. Will this be valid?
A month later on 27 May 2005 at 6.00p.m. you are showing round prospective tenants of the empty Flat 'D' and want to end the tenancy of Flat 'B' after 31 July 2005. You put the S.21 Notice under the door of Flat 'B'. Will this be valid?
On 28 June 2005 you show prospective tenants the empty Flat 'D' and you will want to give notice to the tenant of Flat 'C' to end the tenancy after 31 August 2005 and slip the notice under the door to the flat. Will this be valid?
On 28 May 2005 you sent by first-class recorded delivery a S.21 Notice to a tenant to end a fixed-term tenancy on 31 July 2005. Will this be valid if he signed the form presented by the postman on 31 May 2005 to say he has received it?
Does a S.21 Notice have to be signed by the landlord or his agent to be valid?

The answers will not now be posted before 8th July!

If you get them all right I'm sure you will deserve a prize!

Plusabit
25-06-2005, 14:29 PM
Ok here goes, be gental with me :D :-
1. Should be ON 30 June not after, and a witness should be taken or registered post
2. Date yes
3. And again it has to be ON 30 June. The notice has to have the named tenants and with Private on it they can argue that they did not open it as it did not have their name on it
4. Again another after date should be ON 30 June and served to that flat with the tenants name and a witness or registered post
5. Again ON 31 July the tenants name and a witness or registered post
6. Date ON 31 August
7. It will be valid whether he signs the form or not
8. Whoever signed the tenancy agreement should sign the section 21 notice

Nora Kay
26-06-2005, 22:51 PM
PaulF
I think that all of the services would be valid.
You do however introduce items that I have never before seen discussed as an issue on the Forum, eg the time the notice is served, the need or otherwise to name the tenants on the envelope, use of letterbox rather than shoving the letter under tenant's door. I would be very interested to know if any of them are relevant.
In (7), although the landlord has cut it a bit fine, the tenant still has been given the full 2 months notice, ie the whole of June and July.
As for (8), the notice can be signed by landlord or agent.

RichieP
27-06-2005, 08:53 AM
Time does make a difference. It has to be served before 4pm (I think) or it counts as being served the next day.

In a house with separate tenancies, it must be served to the specific tenant, not put through a communal letterbox.

Agrajag
27-06-2005, 10:09 AM
I'll give it a try :)

1: needs to have evidence of delivery - no witnesses and hand delivered doesn't accomplish this. invalid (in the sense that it won't be legally binding).
Short notice (unacknowledged), given 6pm->29th april.

2: Valid in this case, delivery is acknowledged (it should be made clear the s21 is acknowledged in the recept)

3: again no evidence of delivery, never mind the addressee. invalid.

4: needs to be delivered to the actual flat, invalid.

5: Valid, I think, presuming the prospective tenants serve as witnesses.

6: Looks valid, but perhaps short notice unacknowledged.

7: It should say after 31st July. The 31st of July is within the 'period'.
7a: If thats fixed, it looks OK to me.

8: I'd have to say yes.

PaulF
27-06-2005, 11:30 AM
Thank you to those who have had a go so far! It can be a bit intimidating I know and I'm sure some won't answer because they might feel foolish! Best to feel a fool now rather then when you come to serve the notice! I'm not here to make you look prats, as I can guarantee when you have the answers you will want to paste them into a word document for future reference!

You need to know the format for the service of notices and it is contained within an Act of Parliament. The dates are significant, and so far I don't think you realise why! You've not actually read the questions very thoroughly I suspect!

Richie P, please have a go as you are on the right lines - but not quite!

RichieP
27-06-2005, 11:55 AM
OK.

1. Yes it's valid but only with a witness. It counts as being served the next day but it's still 2 months notice.

2. Valid. No need for a witness.

3. No. It needs to be addressed to the tenants.

4. No. Needs to be served at Flat A.

5. Valid if you have a witness.

6. As above.

7. No. Must be two clear months.

8. Yes.

Muse
27-06-2005, 14:51 PM
You should all have a go at these questions as it affects all landlords. Assume that all the Section 21 notices have been completed correctly and are of the correct version. You may also assume all periodic tenancies are monthly and start on the 1st of each month. You will need a calendar and your wits!



On 28 April 2005 on your way home from work at 6.00 p.m. you hand deliver a S.21 notice through the letterbox at the tenant's address giving him notice to quit a periodic AST after 30 June 2005. Will this be valid?
You do exactly the same as in (1) but the tenant is at home and you give it to him personally, and he even signs a receipt. Would this make any difference to your answer to the previous question?
On 27 April 2005 you hand deliver through the letterbox a S.21 Notice to the tenants at a property where they both live addressed to "The Tenants" and marked "Private & Confidential" to end a periodic AST after 30 June 2005. Will this be valid?
You are the landlord of 4 self-contained flats, three of which are currently occupied (A, B & C) by single tenants all of whom have been on periodic AST's since the beginning of this year. On 28 April 2005 on your way home from work at 6.00 p.m. you deliver by hand through the letterbox of the entrance door to the house, a S.21 Notice to end the tenancy of Flat 'A' after 30 June 2005. Will this be valid?
A month later on 27 May 2005 at 6.00p.m. you are showing round prospective tenants of the empty Flat 'D' and want to end the tenancy of Flat 'B' after 31 July 2005. You put the S.21 Notice under the door of Flat 'B'. Will this be valid?
On 28 June 2005 you are going to go round (depends when you read this) to show prospective tenants the empty Flat 'D' and you will want to give notice to the tenant of Flat 'C' to end the tenancy after 31 August 2005 and slip the notice under the door to the flat. Will this be valid?
On 28 May 2005 you sent by first-class recorded delivery a S.21 Notice to a tenant to end a fixed-term tenancy on 31 July 2005. Will this be valid if he signed the form presented by the postman on 31 May 2005 to say he has received it?
Does a S.21 Notice have to be signed by the landlord or his agent to be valid?

The answers will be posted before 3rd July so don't delay!

If you get them all right I'm sure you will deserve a prize!

1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. Yes
6. Yes
7. No
8. If the agent acts fully on behalf of the landlord then it would be acceptable for the agent to sign it if not then landlord must sign it

Plusabit
27-06-2005, 19:04 PM
Yes everybody, go for it, its the only way you learn. im not a letting agent so im allowed to be wrong!!!!

PaulF
28-06-2005, 08:44 AM
If in Question (7) I said the Notice stated that possession is required after 31 July 2005 would this make the validity of the correct service of the notice any different?

RichieP
28-06-2005, 09:47 AM
I suppose what you're getting at here then is the way it's served. Must be by hand, not post. :confused:

Agrajag
28-06-2005, 11:03 AM
If the dates are so significant (and the times), then the effective notice period must be longer than I expected. I don't know the legal detail Paul mentioned; perhaps additional time has to be allowed when notice is served without explicit acknowledgment (just posted), or time allowed for delivery by post.

If the possession date was correct in Q7, then the dates would be very tight, but its acknowledged. And probably before 4pm. So it looks like adequate notice. Hmm, unless legal months turn out to be 31 days :)

oaktree
28-06-2005, 12:09 PM
1) no. A document left at the address after 5pm would be deemed delivered the next working day. However it would then be the the 29th and a document left at the property is deemed served the first business day after service which would then be the Monday 2nd May.
2) no
3) no
4) no, not to the right address and date issue as in 1
5) yes
6) yes
7) yes, day of service is deemed second day after it was posted which would be a business day (monday)
8) no

MrWoof
28-06-2005, 15:56 PM
1. Yes, May be challenged in court as there is no proof of delivery.
2. Yes, Proof of delivery and two full month's notice.
3. No, Notice must be to tenants by name.
4. No, Notice must be to tenants at their address, ie the flat.
5. Yes, May be challenged in court as there is no proof of delivery.
6. Yes, May be challenged in court as there is no proof of delivery.
7. No, Possession date must be 'after' 31st July.
7. Supplement: No, Two full month's notice must be given, in this case the notice period is two months less a few hours.
8. Yes

oaktree
28-06-2005, 16:28 PM
Paul_f
Can we assume that like all good tenancies you have the relevant wording in place for section 196 of the Law of Property Act 1925?

Muse
28-06-2005, 22:29 PM
If in Question (7) I said the Notice stated that possession is required after 31 July 2005 would this make the validity of the correct service of the notice any different?

In that case I would change my answer to question 7 to yes

PaulF
29-06-2005, 07:39 AM
Some of you are getting there.

Please assume that the landlord has proof of service (which is not that difficult) as the questions are not about that, so direct your answers from the information you have been given; don't introduce "ifs" and "buts", and take them at face value. As my first post states, assume they have been correctly served!

RichieP
29-06-2005, 09:04 AM
I think Oaktree is in the right area, actually checking what days of the week notice is served.

red40
29-06-2005, 10:16 AM
Ok here goes :eek:

1. No - word 'after' is wrong, should be 'on'
2. No
3. No - word 'after' is wrong, should be 'on'
4. No - word 'after' is wrong, should be 'on'
5. No - word 'after' is wrong, should be 'on'
6. No - word 'after' is wrong, should be 'on'
7. No-Fixed term tenancy, not periodic Paul? then expiry date is wrong.
8. No- not that sure though a printed name may suffice, not a signature.

lawstudent
30-06-2005, 05:26 AM
Paul f - you are a bad boy.

You have had to be reprimanded before, for thinking that a S21 is a "notice to quit". If it happens again it will be serious, and you will have to be caned.

PaulF
30-06-2005, 10:58 AM
My cheeks are rosy! Quite Right - it's a Notice of Possession - I'll alter it! 'Ere lawstudent - how about you having a go at the answers?

By the way everybody, the Editor has asked me to refrain from posting the answers for another week so it will be 8 July at the earliest. He's running out of "prize" books for the winner! I'm off for a short break soon so I'll be keeping out of everybody's way for a few days!

lawstudent
30-06-2005, 13:58 PM
OK rosy-cheeks, I'll have a go



On 28 April 2005 on your way home from work at 6.00 p.m. you hand deliver a S.21 notice through the letterbox at the tenant's address giving him notice to end a periodic AST after 30 June 2005. Will this be valid?
yes
You do exactly the same as in (1) but the tenant is at home and you give it to him personally, and he even signs a receipt. Would this make any difference to your answer to the previous question?
no
On 27 April 2005 you hand deliver through the letterbox a S.21 Notice to the tenants at a property where they both live addressed to "The Tenants" and marked "Private & Confidential" to end a periodic AST after 30 June 2005. Will this be valid?
no
You are the landlord of 4 self-contained flats, three of which are currently occupied (A, B & C) by single tenants all of whom have been on periodic AST's since the beginning of this year. On 28 April 2005 on your way home from work at 6.00 p.m. you deliver by hand through the letterbox of the entrance door to the house, a S.21 Notice to end the tenancy of Flat 'A' after 30 June 2005. Will this be valid?
no
A month later on 27 May 2005 at 6.00p.m. you are showing round prospective tenants of the empty Flat 'D' and want to end the tenancy of Flat 'B' after 31 July 2005. You put the S.21 Notice under the door of Flat 'B'. Will this be valid?
yes
On 28 June 2005 you show prospective tenants the empty Flat 'D' and you will want to give notice to the tenant of Flat 'C' to end the tenancy after 31 August 2005 and slip the notice under the door to the flat. Will this be valid?
under which door did you slip it?
On 28 May 2005 you sent by first-class recorded delivery a S.21 Notice to a tenant to end a fixed-term tenancy on 31 July 2005. Will this be valid if he signed the form presented by the postman on 31 May 2005 to say he has received it?
yes
Does a S.21 Notice have to be signed by the landlord or his agent to be valid?
either

The answers will not now be posted before 8th July!

If you get them all right I'm sure you will deserve a prize!

PaulF
30-06-2005, 19:20 PM
On 28 June 2005 you show prospective tenants the empty Flat 'D' and you will want to give notice to the tenant of Flat 'C' to end the tenancy after 31 August 2005 and slip the notice under the door to the flat. Will this be valid?
under which door did you slip it?
Oh C'mon! - it reads the notice was put under the door of Flat 'C' (pointless asking the question otherwise!)

PaulF
30-06-2005, 19:22 PM
On 28 June 2005 you show prospective tenants the empty Flat 'D' and you will want to give notice to the tenant of Flat 'C' to end the tenancy after 31 August 2005 and slip the notice under the door to the flat. Will this be valid?
under which door did you slip it?
Oh C'mon, you're winding me up! - it reads the notice was put under the door of Flat 'C' (pointless asking the question otherwise!)

ziggy
06-07-2005, 11:55 AM
OK, I'll have a go - better to look a fool now than fail my exam!


On 28 April 2005 on your way home from work at 6.00 p.m. you hand deliver a S.21 notice through the letterbox at the tenant's address giving him notice to end a periodic AST after 30 June 2005. Will this be valid?
YES
You do exactly the same as in (1) but the tenant is at home and you give it to him personally, and he even signs a receipt. Would this make any difference to your answer to the previous question?
NO
On 27 April 2005 you hand deliver through the letterbox a S.21 Notice to the tenants at a property where they both live addressed to "The Tenants" and marked "Private & Confidential" to end a periodic AST after 30 June 2005. Will this be valid?
YES
You are the landlord of 4 self-contained flats, three of which are currently occupied (A, B & C) by single tenants all of whom have been on periodic AST's since the beginning of this year. On 28 April 2005 on your way home from work at 6.00 p.m. you deliver by hand through the letterbox of the entrance door to the house, a S.21 Notice to end the tenancy of Flat 'A' after 30 June 2005. Will this be valid?
YES, PROVIDING IT IS CORRECTLY ADDRESSED TO THE TENANT
A month later on 27 May 2005 at 6.00p.m. you are showing round prospective tenants of the empty Flat 'D' and want to end the tenancy of Flat 'B' after 31 July 2005. You put the S.21 Notice under the door of Flat 'B'. Will this be valid?
YES
On 28 June 2005 you show prospective tenants the empty Flat 'D' and you will want to give notice to the tenant of Flat 'C' to end the tenancy after 31 August 2005 and slip the notice under the door to the flat. Will this be valid?
YES
On 28 May 2005 you sent by first-class recorded delivery a S.21 Notice to a tenant to end a fixed-term tenancy on 31 July 2005. Will this be valid if he signed the form presented by the postman on 31 May 2005 to say he has received it?
YES
Does a S.21 Notice have to be signed by the landlord or his agent to be valid?
EITHER

The answers will not now be posted before 8th July!

If you get them all right I'm sure you will deserve a prize![/QUOTE]