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taheemr
17-02-2007, 14:59 PM
Hello all,

If one was to alter rent ie reduce, during a periodic rental period, could this be construed as entering into a new AST if later one decided to seek possesion via s21 or indeed s8.

Best Regards

Poppy
17-02-2007, 15:01 PM
It would remain the same agreement.

amanda@pinkproperty
17-02-2007, 15:06 PM
You could be in trouble trying to change the rent mid term as they signed up for the term at the rent stated - is it still in initial contract?

Joannepowell
17-02-2007, 15:15 PM
Taheemr - are you actually considering reducing the rent? If yes, just as a matter of interest - what is your reason for such action? :confused:

J

P.Pilcher
17-02-2007, 17:11 PM
This sounds slightly complicated and hinges on what you mean by a periodic period. If you mean a rental period after the tenancy has become a statutory periodic one - i.e. the fixed term of the original assured shorthold tenancy agreement has expired, then you can alter the rent under section 13. You must give your tenant a month's notice of the proposed alteration and not make further alterations for a year. You must also notify the tenant of the action he may take if he objects to the change.
If the AST has not expired then no adjustment in the rent can be made unless you are permitted to do so under the original terms of the AST.

Rent changes made in these ways have no effect on the amount of notice you must give under a s21 process to remove the tenant.

Where I have used the word "change" read "increase". I cannot think of a tenant in the world who would refuse an immediate rent reduction - whether permitted in law or not!

P.P.

PaulF
18-02-2007, 00:14 AM
You could be in trouble trying to change the rent mid term as they signed up for the term at the rent stated - is it still in initial contract?The poster stated it was periodic so your post is incorrect. Pilcher has stated the S.13 route should be used but it's only valid if there is nothing stated within the tenancy agreement about rent reviews, which would take precedence anyway.

Ruth Less
18-02-2007, 00:29 AM
Taheemr - are you actually considering reducing the rent? If yes, just as a matter of interest - what is your reason for such action?

I await taheemr's reply with interest, but just to add my own experience, I've had the rent reduced twice.

Both times to keep me cos I'm good ;)

Recently the landlord proposed a rent increase after the first year. I said right then I'll leave unless, given these examples in the market now, you reduce the rent by the same amount as the proposed increase.

All quiet for a bit, then an offer to reduce the rent by half the amount requested. Offer accepted and we all can now live happily ever after for another year.

I would have stayed on the old rent if the landlord hadn't tried the increase!

The previous example, I'm living in this smashing property, really something special that I still miss. Agent says right your landlord wants to sell here is an S21. I say OK fine. Couple of weeks later agent calls, landlord doesn't want to sell yet, there's a problem needs sorting first some paperwork issue, do you want to stay? I say I've got a viewing of a great place tomorrow I'll let you know. Other agent calls to cancel viewing, some other tenant has beaten me to it. I phone current landlord's agent back, well I'll stay if you reduce the rent by x. They call back later no can do how about a reduction by half x? Deal.

Joannepowell
18-02-2007, 02:34 AM
RuthLess by name, EVEN MORE RUTHLESS BY NATURE! So glad you're not my tenant Ruthless.... :eek:

J

Ruth Less
18-02-2007, 03:31 AM
RuthLess by name, EVEN MORE RUTHLESS BY NATURE! So glad you're not my tenant Ruthless....

Ha! But then again I do actually pay the rent and dead on time. I reckon my LL is did pretty well sticking with me as he avoided having his property empty which he'd have got while changing tenant and he knows I'm reliable :D

PS, These forums are a bit miserable, one smiley per post so one has to edit them out of the quoted bit.

Joannepowell
18-02-2007, 09:22 AM
Ruthless, I actually agree with you on the smiley front.

The only way around it that I can think of is to turn the smilie feature off and just use the usual punctation signs to create them. Won't look as colourful but at least you can be more expressive! :p

J

taheemr
19-02-2007, 08:53 AM
Hello all,

actual reason for the reduction is that I was perhaps getting a few quid over what the property was worth anyway P/cal/month anyway, so will not miss the slight reduction.

The other issue is that my tenant who was previouly defaulting on rent appears to have now come good and has cleared up most of her arrears (perhaps wishful thinking, but lets see if the continues).

Anyway my thinking at the moment is

1. Keep the tenant happy, via reducing rent by a few pounds.
2. Keep the s21 served in place as a lever to focus the tenant
3. If she fails again, at least I have the s21 to fall back on


Alternatives are

1. Go for eviction, in which case no rent and see you in court response probable from T and I loose out more.

At least this way I mitigate my losses in the short term .
Note that I am happy for the t to stay on on the proviso of payment of course, as she does keep the place in tip top shape and seldom do I have to keep tabs.

Also note that the AST has now expired and the the contract is a stat periodic one.

Also Mr Pilcher suggets I cannot alter rent again for a further 12 months, is this the case even though the AST has gone periodic.

Joannepowell
19-02-2007, 10:16 AM
Taheemr if it ain't broke don't fix it! I wouldn't be reducing rent in this scenario! I believe it could/would be construed as entering into a new agreement and would therefore invalidate the s21 you say you have in place!

If you are wanting to 'reward' your tenant and keep her happy why not ask if there is something she would like renewed in the property? Maybe there's a carpet or something which is looking a bit worn and you could replace that to show your appreciation! She gets an improvement to the property but it's your property so you are the ultimate benefactor (as are future tenants).

That's just my thoughts on the subject.

Kind Regards

J

taheemr
19-02-2007, 10:54 AM
Joanne, I here what you are saying, with your concern in mind I spoke to a legal friend, who stated that rent reduction constitutes a contract variation and as such should not be deemed as entering into a new agreement when the AST goes periodic.
I was also advised to withdraw the s21 and issue a new one if things went pear shaped in the future.

As stated In a previous posts my T, wants a council house and was forcing me down the eviction route for all of the clasical reasons. However now she has reconsidered and seen the error of her ways and wishes to stay on untill the council find something suitable. Hence we came to an agreement, ie I knock off £50quid for a quite life, still get my rent and hopefully watch her go quietly. At least thats the plan anyway.

The statement about new contract does worry me though, additional views would be appreciated.

Thanks

jeffrey
19-02-2007, 11:04 AM
Reduction of rent doesn't constitute a novation- unlike, for instance, altering term (up or down) or rent increase.

Joannepowell
19-02-2007, 11:10 AM
I was actually worried about you invalidating your s21 as entering into a new rent would be seen as withdrawing the s21. However, you look to have that angle covered so I guess any loss of income via rent reduction would be cancelled out by not having a void period.

Good Luck with it all anyway.

Regards

J

Poppy
19-02-2007, 16:14 PM
I wouldn't be reducing rent in this scenario! I believe it could/would be construed as entering into a new agreement and would therefore invalidate the s21 you say you have in place!
Your belief is plain wrong. That question was already positively answered as: reducing rent does not amount to a new tenancy agreement. Please do not confuse taheemr or anyone else silently reading this forum.

taheemr there is no need to withdraw the s21 notice. Plenty written about the subject on this forum. At the end of the day, it is your choice.

taheemr
20-02-2007, 08:33 AM
Thanks for the quick replies, its much appreciated.
Finally does anyone have a link where I can obtain a s13 form from.

Best regards
Ps - Have tried searching the forum and cannot seem to find one.

jeffrey
20-02-2007, 10:01 AM
Thanks for the quick replies, its much appreciated.
Finally does anyone have a link where I can obtain a s13 form from.

Best regards
Ps - Have tried searching the forum and cannot seem to find one.

Any Law stationer's: try Oyez or Shaw & Sons (via web or a real-life shop).

P.Pilcher
20-02-2007, 10:15 AM
The easiest way is to go to http://www.oyezformslink.co.uk from where you can download what you require for a modest fee. I am sure Jeffrey uses them as well, but he probably has acquired the CD containing all their forms. This costs a lot of money!

P.P.