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MrLongbeard
16-04-2012, 17:39 PM
Hi all, long time lurker first time poster :o:

Apologies if this has been covered before but a 'quick' search throws up many many results.

Long tall and short of it;
I have been served a section 21 (1) (b) notice by my landlords to quit their property (fair enough, it's theirs and they've sold it)

Now I am on what I believe is a periodic tenancy, (lived here 5 - 6 years, only signed the original 12month contract) so should I have been issued with a section 21 (4)(a) notice instead?

That in itself doesn't make many differences to me, and my main question is, do they need to give 2 full months notice? ie from payment date to payment date, so if I pay my rent on the 30th of the month they can not issue the 2 months notice from the 20th of the month and short me 10 days tenancy?

I've been reading the legislation, and online guides for LLs and got myself in a right muddle about it.

Thanks,

Snorkerz
16-04-2012, 18:35 PM
What date was the section 21 served on you?
What date (exactly) did the last tenancy agreement begin, and was there an end date on it?
Did you pay a deposit when you moved in?

he date is needed because it isn't rent days that count, it is tenancy dates.

westminster
16-04-2012, 18:47 PM
I have been served a section 21 (1) (b) notice by my landlords to quit their property
A s.21 notice is not a notice to quit. It does not end the tenancy nor oblige you to vacate at notice expiry. Nor does it remove your obligation to serve NTQ should you wish to end the tenancy. It merely entitles the LL to apply for a possession order after the s.21 notice expires. (In other words, if you were to vacate at expiry of the s.21 notice without giving NTQ, then LL could pursue you for rent in lieu of notice).


Now I am on what I believe is a periodic tenancy, (lived here 5 - 6 years, only signed the original 12month contract) so should I have been issued with a section 21 (4)(a) notice instead?

That in itself doesn't make many differences to me, and my main question is, do they need to give 2 full months notice? ie from payment date to payment date, so if I pay my rent on the 30th of the month they can not issue the 2 months notice from the 20th of the month and short me 10 days tenancy?
A s.21 notice served in a periodic tenancy may be served at any time. It must say that it's a notice under s.21 (so the fact that it says it's a s.21(1)(b) notice may not invalidate it); it must give not less than two months; and it must expire at the end of a tenancy period (and this isn't the same as a rental period, though the two often coincide). The expiry date must be expressed as "after [date]", the date being the last day of a tenancy period, and if it doesn't use the word "after" the notice is defective.

The tenancy periods began the day after your fixed term expired. Their length is based on the frequency with which rent is payable (under the expired contract). So, if the fixed term ended on, say, 13th March 2007, and your rent is payable monthly on the 1st of the month, then the tenancy periods would run 14th - 13th of the month.

MrLongbeard
17-04-2012, 09:00 AM
Thanks both for popping in and taking the time to aid me with my quandary



the date is needed because it isn't rent days that count, it is tenancy dates.

Ahhh, time to hunt through far too many boxes of accumulated paperwork and try and find my original agreement then.


A s.21 notice is not a notice to quit. It does not end the tenancy nor oblige you to vacate at notice expiry. Nor does it remove your obligation to serve NTQ should you wish to end the tenancy. It merely entitles the LL to apply for a possession order after the s.21 notice expires. (In other words, if you were to vacate at expiry of the s.21 notice without giving NTQ, then LL could pursue you for rent in lieu of notice).



I knew we'd still have to issue & serve notice if we decide (were able) to leave before hand, but had assumed (wrongly it appears)that the S21 notice gave us the last day on which we could remain in residence as tenants.

thesaint
17-04-2012, 09:10 AM
Before you go hunting for paperwork, what date was the Sec 21 served on you, and what date does it expire?

MrLongbeard
17-04-2012, 09:19 AM
S21 served on the 16/04 expires on the 16/06

LesleyAnne
17-04-2012, 09:30 AM
Just out of interest, what month/year did your first tenancy begin? Did you pay a deposit at the start?

I ask because all tenancies AFTER 6 April 2007, are subject to deposit protection laws. The deposit should no longer be retained in the LL's pocket, but lodged in a secure government scheme. If your original tenancy started after April '07 - you state 5-6 years so this is a possibility - and your deposit has not been protected, your S21 may be invalid anyway.

If it was before that date, then so long as no further tenancy agreements have been signed, the deposit protection does not apply.

As mentioned above, whilst many tenants assume that S21 expiry date is the day you need to leave, the S21 only gives you 2 months notice that the LL is intending to apply for possession of the property. You are legally able to stay until the LL gets a court order and formally evicts you - this could give you another 4-6 weeks on top of the expiry date. However, as it is inevitable that you will have to move out once LL achieves the court orer, it may be wise for you to start looking elsewhere anyway.

Also remember, that if you do find alternative property, you still have to give LL a month's notice that you are leaving, as the S21 does not over-ride your notice obligations.

MrLongbeard
17-04-2012, 16:26 PM
Tenancy began Feb 07, deposit paid, no protection scheme

thesaint
17-04-2012, 16:30 PM
The notice is not valid(if you confirm that your tenancy periods are monthly), as your tenancy periods run from the 7th to the 6th of each month.

westminster
17-04-2012, 16:48 PM
How do you know? OP has only told us the month (February) and year (2007) that the tenancy began.

MrLongbeard
17-04-2012, 17:04 PM
Apologies,
To clarify I move into this gaff Feb 2007, still searching out my original agreement

Snorkerz
17-04-2012, 17:25 PM
Without the exactcommencement date (and the duration of the initial term) we can not verify the validity of the section 21 notice.

Team: Did we come to a conclusion of the effects of the Localism Act on pre 6/4/07 tenancies?

westminster
17-04-2012, 18:54 PM
Team: Did we come to a conclusion of the effects of the Localism Act on pre 6/4/07 tenancies?
I think Lawcruncher thought it applied across the board, even to pre 6/4/07 tenancies, but I'm not convinced and I think we need case law to establish it.

May never happen, as there won't be many pre 6/4/07 ASTs left out there, with litigious tenants prepared to go to a higher court.

Snorkerz
17-04-2012, 19:04 PM
I think Lawcruncher thought it applied across the board, even to pre 6/4/07 tenancies, but I'm not convinced and I think we need case law to establish it.

May never happen, as there won't be many pre 6/4/07 ASTs left out there, with litigious tenants prepared to go to a higher court.True, but could MrLongbeard not attempt to use it as a defence to the s21 (or a subsequent one) if he reads / studies Lawcrunchers arguments?

westminster
17-04-2012, 19:06 PM
Yes, he could attempt it. He might have an easier argument if the s.21 expiry date turns out to be defective.

thesaint
18-04-2012, 09:27 AM
How do you know? OP has only told us the month (February) and year (2007) that the tenancy began.


Sorry, I read it as Feb 7th.

MrLongbeard
22-04-2012, 15:17 PM
Apols for the delay in getting back to this, the original agreement had been put away for safe keeping and took a while to find.

It is dated February the 10th, so the notice is incorrectly dated in my book.

westminster
22-04-2012, 15:42 PM
So the fixed term commenced 10th February 2007? Or do you mean the contract was signed on that date?

We need to know the length of the term, as well, and whether an 'end' date was specified.

MrLongbeard
22-04-2012, 16:06 PM
Thanks westminster.
6 month fixed term dated to start on the 10th feb 2007, signed on the 12th feb 2007, no end date listed

westminster
22-04-2012, 16:18 PM
Thanks westminster.
6 month fixed term dated to start on the 10th feb 2007, signed on the 12th feb 2007, no end date listed
I believe your rent is payable monthly, therefore the tenancy periods run 10th - 9th of the month, and the LL's s.21 notice is therefore defective*, as it expires on the 16th June.

If it was served on 16th April, the earliest expiry date would be "after 9th July 2012".

If you wish to serve notice to quit and end the tenancy, then your notice will also have to expire on the 9th of the month (as well as giving LL not less than one month).

======
*Unless, perhaps, there is a saving formula? E.g. see this link (http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2010/03/permission-1-refused-date-of-notice/).

MrLongbeard
31-05-2012, 12:39 PM
Well I suppose everyone likes a conclusion to these threads to aid those who may search them out later.

All sorted, we managed to find a place locally within the time frame we had to work with so have no need to question their S21, which was only going to be a last resort effort as a delaying tactic.

So, thanks again to all of those who offered advice. :)

Snorkerz
31-05-2012, 22:06 PM
Hope you have a lovely time in your new home.