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boogie
30-05-2005, 09:38 AM
I have 2 worries !

I had entered into AST two years ago as landlord with two tenants as sharers (he and she). Original six month fixed term expired now statutory periodic. (He) tenant gave me fair written notice of intention to leave and did so. (She) tenant claims no knowledge and won't let me know whether she will leave after my notice or enter into new agreement. This situation happend nearly 3 months ago. I had served notice on both tenants as concerned about rent affordabilty with only one. Notice about to expire (tenant in occupation will not communticate) considering enforcing notice through courts - APP. Dates, timescales, names, etc all look accurate but Section 21(4)(a) quote says Housing Act 1998 and not 1988 (silly typo). Would a judge throw out or a defence split hairs ?

(2) Other point is that prior to this tenancy I agreed an AST with the (she) tenant and another (he) as sharers. This was brought to an end correctly with current tenancy following with same rental period dates. Effectively (she) tenant would have occupied for 3 years. Does this give any particular defence ?

PaulF
30-05-2005, 11:00 AM
I don't really know where to start.


I have 2 worries !

I had entered into AST two years ago as landlord with two tenants as sharers (he and she). Original six month fixed term expired now statutory periodic. (He) tenant gave me fair written notice of intention to leave and did so. (She) tenant claims no knowledge and won't let me know whether she will leave after my notice or enter into new agreement. This situation happend nearly 3 months ago. Here you're saying the male tenant gave YOU notice. I had served notice on both tenants as concerned about rent affordabilty with only one. Here you're saying YOU served notice on them (which is it for God's sake?)Notice about to expire (tenant in occupation will not communticate) considering enforcing notice through courts - APP. Dates, timescales, names, etc all look accurate but Section 21(4)(a) quote says Housing Act 1998 and not 1988 (silly typo). Would a judge throw out or a defence split hairs ? When did you serve this and when does it expire, and while your at it tell us when you ahve served or received any other notices.

(2) Other point is that prior to this tenancy Which tenancy? How many have there been? (Try listing all the tenancies with start and end dates of fixed terms, plus giving us the tenants who were parties to the tenancy(ies)I agreed an AST with the (she) tenant and another (he) as sharers. (When? Dates, Dates, Dates!!!!)This was brought to an end correctly with current tenancy following with same rental period dates. Effectively (she) tenant would have occupied for 3 years. Does this give any particular defence?I've no idea what you're trying to tell us in this final sentence!

boogie
30-05-2005, 12:26 PM
Here are facts

1st AST commencement date 11 May 2002 between Landlord (myself) and tenants (Mr A and Miss X). Rent Paid on 11th of month. Fixed term of six months. I served correct notce on them on 28 April 2003 that I require possession after 10 July 2003. Mr A had left well before that date (neither tenant had told me at the time). Miss X told me she was in process of finding sharer and found one, a Mr B.

2nd AST commencement date 11 May 2003 between Landlord (myself) and tenants (Mr B and Miss X). Rent payable on 11th of month and fixed term of six months as before. Mr B gave notice of intention to leave on 1 June 2005, letter dated 31 March 2005. I then served notice on both tenants on 5 April 2005 that I require possession after 10 June 2005.

I notice also from these dates that 2nd AST starts before notice period of 1st expires. Could this add to my troubles at this stage ?


My notice to tenants entited :

Notice Requiring Possession of Dwelling-House Under Assured Shorthold (Periodic) Tenancy.

This detailed Landlord, Tenants, Dwelling-House Address, tenancy commencment date and fixed term expiry date

The Landlord gives notice to the Tenants on this day the 99/99/9999 by virtue of section 21(4)(a) of the Housing Act 1998* and with respect to the Tenancy currently in force that he requires possession of the Dwelling-House after 99/99/9999

* Typo I mentioned earlier - should be 1988

I sent notice with a polite letter explaining why done so asking both tenants to sign and return copy for acknowledgement. They did this. I said in letter that I would be happy to negotiate a new tenancy for Miss X solely or with another sharer but I would need to know by 20th May at the latest. On 18th I phone and asked what doing -leaving at notice period or negotiate new tenancy. She said she'd let me know by 20th. After that date I phoned again with politeness but was cut off. No communication written or verbal since.

I have administered aprox 15-20 tenancies over last ten years. Not an easy ride to say the least and I've made many mistakes along the way. However with most people (I've found) if you play fair and reasonable, they reciprocate.

I worry that Miss X has either head in sand, preparing to do a bunk or preparing a legal challenge.

If worst comes to worst and my paperwork is in question, could a section 21 notice be reserved (by solictor) this time followed by accelerated repo. if necessary.

It is my understanding that after 1997 all tenancies are AST unless otherwise stated with tenant guaranteed minimum term of six months but no more unless stated.

Won't ramble on any longer !

PaulF
30-05-2005, 14:22 PM
You need to take into consideration what you can and can't do!

Here are facts

1st AST commencement date 11 May 2002 between Landlord (myself) and tenants (Mr A and Miss X). Rent Paid on 11th of month. Fixed term of six months. I served correct notce on them on 28 April 2003 that I require possession after 10 July 2003. Mr A had left well before that date (neither tenant had told me at the time). Miss X told me she was in process of finding sharer and found one, a Mr B.

2nd AST commencement date 11 May 2003 between Landlord (myself) and tenants (Mr B and Miss X). Rent payable on 11th of month and fixed term of six months as before. Mr B gave notice of intention to leave on 1 June 2005, letter dated 31 March 2005. This action ends the tenancy anyway when the tenant stipulated so you would need to draw up a new one on 1 June. I then served notice on both tenants on 5 April 2005 that I require possession after 10 June 2005. Why serve a notice on the tenants to be effective on 10 June, when one tenant has already effectively ended the tenancy on 1 June, as it is meaningless?

I notice also from these dates that 2nd AST starts before notice period of 1st expires. Could this add to my troubles at this stage ? This doesn't matter.


My notice to tenants entited :

Notice Requiring Possession of Dwelling-House Under Assured Shorthold (Periodic) Tenancy.

This detailed Landlord, Tenants, Dwelling-House Address, tenancy commencment date and fixed term expiry date

The Landlord gives notice to the Tenants on this day the 99/99/9999 by virtue of section 21(4)(a) of the Housing Act 1998* and with respect to the Tenancy currently in force that he requires possession of the Dwelling-House after 99/99/9999

* Typo I mentioned earlier - should be 1988

I sent notice with a polite letter explaining why done so asking both tenants to sign and return copy for acknowledgement. They did this. I said in letter that I would be happy to negotiate a new tenancy for Miss X solely or with another sharer but I would need to know by 20th May at the latest. By offering to open negotiations on another tenancy voids your S.21 Notice anyway; it must be without reservation. You can't "take it away" with one hand and "re-offer" with another. On 18th I phone and asked what doing -leaving at notice period or negotiate new tenancy. She said she'd let me know by 20th. After that date I phoned again with politeness but was cut off. No communication written or verbal since.

I have administered aprox 15-20 tenancies over last ten years. Not an easy ride to say the least and I've made many mistakes along the way. However with most people (I've found) if you play fair and reasonable, they reciprocate. I think you are still making a lot of mistakes, not least of which is how a tenant may end a tenancy, and how you can!

I worry that Miss X has either head in sand, preparing to do a bunk or preparing a legal challenge. I think it could be somebody else whose head is in the sand!

If worst comes to worst and my paperwork is in question, could a section 21 notice be reserved (by solictor) this time followed by accelerated repo. if necessary. Why do this when your tenant has ended the tenancy already on 1 June? (Only one tenant needs to give notice by the way).

It is my understanding that after 1997 all tenancies are AST unless otherwise stated with tenant guaranteed minimum term of six months but no more unless stated.

Won't ramble on any longer !

boogie
30-05-2005, 15:21 PM
Thankyou for your help Paul.

1) I understand that tenancy effectively ended on 1st June and Mr B has left ok and Miss X should do the same but how would I enforce possession now on Miss X, especially given my improper communication ?

2 ) Looking at procedure for accelerated possession it appears to require evidence of written tenancy agreement and notice (I take it now that Mr B's letter would have sufficed for this although in articles I've read it always remarks on landlord's notice and checking wording carefully).

3) I understand I've invalidated my pointless S.21 notice but have I now unwittingly entered into a new verbal/written tenancy with Miss X by way of my communication which she could call upon ?

4) Another question in general but relevant in this case is that if tenant(s) serve notice on landlord then later simply change mind or in my case with sharers, one insists on staying, how do you enforce ? Would my point 2) apply.

5) In my tenancy agreements I request that I have not less than 2 months notice in writing (though in reality and I understand overridden by law take 1 month). No prescribed format is required as long as served at landlord's address but as long is it reads something (like in Mr B's case) : "I am leaving on 1 June" - dated 31 March this is adequate as proof if I need it.

I may sound a dolk and see I have a lot of factual procedure to learn but hitherto I may have had it easy. Tenants write to say they want out in a month and then go. Communication nicely flows both ways.

boogie
30-05-2005, 21:59 PM
Can anyone give guidance on my last response.

Basically if 1 of 2 sharing tenants serves notice on landlord and leaves but other refuses to leave then surely only way to recovery posession is with valid section 21 notice and if still fails to vacate after expiry date enfore through County Court.

PaulF
31-05-2005, 07:19 AM
Can anyone give guidance on my last response.

Basically if 1 of 2 sharing tenants serves notice on landlord and leaves but other refuses to leave then surely only way to recovery posession is with valid section 21 notice and if still fails to vacate after expiry date enfore through County Court.You know, I sometimes tear my hair out. If a tenant gives YOU notice then you just go to the court under the APP with the letter if the other tenant doesn't move out on the stipulated day. You should make it clear to the remaining tenant that notice has been given by the co-tenant, effectively ending the tenancy, as if she, too were giving notice!

ngadef
31-05-2005, 08:18 AM
You are in a beautifully simple situation

If a joint tenant terminates a tenacy
The tenancy is terminated for both tenants

I come across this in domestic violence cases where the victim leaves and we can get the perpetrator out because she serves a NTQ.................