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View Full Version : Can a T serve a notice after being issues a notice by the L



kwhite1968
14-12-2011, 23:20 PM
Hi,I really need ssome he'll and advice.I have been renting out my house and after the initial 6month AST the contract has been on a periodic rolling tenancy.My tenants move in and pay date is the8th of every month.I I asked my agent to serve the tenants with a two month notice served before the 8th o 5ec. Yesterday I got a phone call from the agents to say the tenants. Had sent a letter giving me one months noticee .(He letter was dated the 8th and waas not received by tem till the 9th and the lady who deals with the mamaging letings section was off and there fore did not get it till the day after that. She said they had given me notice and they will move out on the 9th jan- understood it as they had to give notice in before the end of a pay period but seen as I gave two monthe notice from the 8th 5ecember I am really confused. 9an anyone help me as the agents appear to be giving me the run around. When are they to pay up until and wwhat notice should have been given and when. The whole thing is a mess.

mariner
15-12-2011, 00:56 AM
Stat Periodic T - s21 reuires 2 clear months expiring at end of Tenancy period (same date fixed term ended-8) Your Notice (LA) was served (received by T) after 8 Dec and thus cannot expire until 8 March.
Similarly, during SPT, T is required to give 1 clear month notice to expire on last day of a T period.
Equally, the Ts notice notice appears to have been served late, (as Service is deemed to be 2 working days after posting if sent First Class,) so it cannot expire (be effected) until 8th Feb. T can leave before this but remains liable for rent/property to this date.
LL s21 is not a Notice to Quit on specified date, it only allows LL to seek legal repo after that date, whereas T notice formally ends his T on expiry and T must vacate by his notice expiry date. It cannot be revoked without LL prior consent. If you consent then T would have to serve another NTQ with same date restrictions. If no consent and T stays beyond expiry date, T becomes excluded occupier(?) and you may be able to claim 2x rent equiv / day for length of overstay until lawfully evicted/vol surrendered.
To answer your Q - yes T can serve Notice even if LL has served valid s21 and is required to do so IMO if T intends to vacate SPT before s21 court hearing - most do not.
In your situation, if T vacates by expiry date in his Notice, is it worth the cost of enforcing the fine print? With current rental market in some areas, LL should expect 3 month voids in any 12 month period.
Best wait few days for others to comment. I am not a l'eagle.

kwhite1968
15-12-2011, 06:25 AM
Hi, Thank you for your help. The tenent was served with notice to quit by letter from my managment company before the rent date of 8th. Ten they sent notice to quit. To clarify. What you are saying is that they are not bound to stay or pay rent untilthe end of the two month period. Also there notice letter was not received until after the 8th which is te rent day. So letter received after 8th December yet they expect december to be their last month of rent and move out on the 9th ot tenth of January. My managment company say this is fine but I do not agree as the letter was not received in time.

jjlandlord
15-12-2011, 08:35 AM
Indeed it seems that T's NTQ was not served correctly.
However, since OP wants them out he should rather be happy that they intend to willingly go.


If no consent and T stays beyond expiry date, T becomes excluded occupier(?)

Ex-T would become a trespasser since he'd be occupying the property without consent.

Snorkerz
15-12-2011, 09:16 AM
Your tenants is quite entitled to give notice - but presuming the rent is due monthly and also presuming that the last tenancy agreement ended on the 7th of a month then the tenant can only end the tenancy agreement without your cooperation by giving a full months notice, ending on the 7th of any month.

Your tenants notice arrived on the 9th (not their problem the staff were away) and so the earliest date the notice can take effect without your cooperation is the 7th of February - presumably the same date as the expiry of your s21 notice (7/1/12 is less than a month away).

However, you are faced with a choice....

1) Stick to your legal right to full notice, and run the risk that the tenants will stick by their legal right to stay in the property until you get a court order to remove them (which you could now apply for on 10/1/12); or

2) Honour their notice and get your property back with minimum hassle.

thesaint
15-12-2011, 15:59 PM
since OP wants them out he should rather be happy that they intend to willingly go.



Wouldn't he be short of rent if he does that?
If so, why should he be happy to be down a months rent?

PaulF
15-12-2011, 20:55 PM
Tenant should have been advised by L or Agent in writing how to end tenancy. It should NOT be included within the AST terms but sent separately (S.5 Housing Act Act 1988). If T was not advised then L would have to accept one months Notice from any date. Landlords must not assume tenants know they must serve one months minimum notice to end at the end of a rental period.

jjlandlord
15-12-2011, 21:34 PM
Wouldn't he be short of rent if he does that?
If so, why should he be happy to be down a months rent?

OP wants T out. T seems willing to go and did serve a month notice, though the dates were 2 days off: Ie. should the dates have been 2 days earlier LL would have had no choice and the tenancy would have ended even 2 days earlier than proposed.

OP's call...


Tenant should have been advised by L or Agent in writing how to end tenancy. It should NOT be included within the AST terms but sent separately (S.5 Housing Act Act 1988). If T was not advised then L would have to accept one months Notice from any date. Landlords must not assume tenants know they must serve one months minimum notice to end at the end of a rental period.

Interesting, never heard that before. Would you mind elaborating on the basis for this? (can't seem to find anything related in s.5 HA 1988)

spare
15-12-2011, 21:44 PM
Can you expand more on the part about how to end a tenancy details must be sent under seperate cover and not be in the AST or if they are it won't count, please.
Cheers

Snorkerz
15-12-2011, 22:46 PM
Landlords must not assume tenants know they must serve one months minimum notice to end at the end of a rental period.Isn't it established in case law or common law that a tenancy must end on the first or last day of a tenancy period?

PaulF
16-12-2011, 20:52 PM
Isn't it established in case law or common law that a tenancy must end on the first or last day of a tenancy period?Perhaps so but a tenant is not expected to know the law unlike a landlord, as it might be considered an unfair term not to have been advised of the correct procedure (see answer below)


Interesting, never heard that before. Would you mind elaborating on the basis for this? (can't seem to find anything related in s.5 HA 1988) You might not have heard of this but it would be a perfectly reasonable defence, if the landlord tried to claim rent for the period from when Notice was served by the tenant, and when the rent period next expired, when the tenant had no idea of the procedure. I understand a tenant used this argument against a landlord and won his case.

Lawcruncher
16-12-2011, 21:29 PM
Interesting, never heard that before. Would you mind elaborating on the basis for this? (can't seem to find anything related in s.5 HA 1988)

It is a new one on me too.

Snorkerz
17-12-2011, 10:15 AM
You might not have heard of this but it would be a perfectly reasonable defence, My mum was neither a lawyer nor a judge, but it was instilled in me from an early age that ignorance is no defence. Maybe I watched too much Crown Court as a kid.

Sorry guv, we was just larking around, I didn't realise it was illegal to change the lock.