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Mr/MrsLandlord
11-12-2011, 15:50 PM
Is it possible to get a tenant to sign a section 21 notice post dated with the date when the tenancy would end, ie tenant signs AST 1st Feb 2011 for 6month agreement so tenacy ends 1st Aug 2011 so date fo signing on section 21 would be
1st Aug 2011.
The date of expiry would say, 'after 1st Aug 2011'.

Thanks

Mr/MrsLandlord

boletus
11-12-2011, 16:15 PM
There is nothing to stop you serving, and getting the tenant to sign for, a (non post dated) s21 at the start of the tenancy.

Many advise against this as it shows bad faith. After what you've just been through you may feel it is worth this loss of goodwill.

LesleyAnne
11-12-2011, 17:33 PM
However, as well as Boletus's advice above, you must ensure that the deposit is protected AND the prescribed information is given to the tenant BEFORE the S21 is issued, otherwise it will be void. Best to give the deposit info first, then send the S21 a few days later.

Snorkerz
11-12-2011, 19:13 PM
Is it possible to get a tenant to sign a section 21 notice post dated with the date when the tenancy would end, ie tenant signs AST 1st Feb 2011 for 6month agreement so tenacy ends 1st Aug 2011Not so, the tenancy would end 31st July. Having said that, a s21(1)(b) with an expiry of 'after 1st August' would also be valid.

As the earliest you can gain a (s21) possession order for is 6 months then there would be no great hurry. Wait a month or two to see how you get on with the tenants, then somewhere between the 3 & 4 month anniversaries you can issue an s21(1)(b) to expire 'after 31 July 2011' in the case you cite.

Saves threatening eviction the moment people walk in (they're not likely to act very positively) and does not compromise your ability to gain possession at the earliest possible time.

boletus
12-12-2011, 01:45 AM
As the earliest you can gain a (s21) possession order for is 6 months then there would be no great hurry. Wait a month or two to see how you get on with the tenants, then somewhere between the 3 & 4 month anniversaries you can issue an s21(1)(b) to expire 'after 31 July 2011' in the case you cite.

Saves threatening eviction the moment people walk in (they're not likely to act very positively) and does not compromise your ability to gain possession at the earliest possible time.

I serve a s21 at the start of the tenancy. I also get them to sign to say that it has been served.

It is then in place throughout the life of the agreement allowing me to get rid of a tenant relatively quickly when I choose, whether I get on with them in the beginning or not.

If you leave it 3 or 4 months or later and then serve, it sends the wrong message (unless you are definitely acting upon it).

If you don't serve a s21 until you need to, then you are making unnecessary delays for yourself.

I am aware of the for and against discussions on here and elsewhere but this way works for me.

mariner
12-12-2011, 03:56 AM
A s21may be included in AST document but it is not vsalid until'reqd info' has been provided by LL to T.
I am in favour of precautionary s21s if properly explained to T.

jjlandlord
12-12-2011, 08:47 AM
A s21may be included in AST document but it is not vsalid until'reqd info' has been provided by LL to T.

Imo, a s.21 notice included in the AST document should almost always be invalid.
Because it's not that the notice is invalid until deposit has been protected and required info provided. It's that it is invalid if it is served when these requirements have not been complied with and/or when the tenancy has not started yet.


If you leave it 3 or 4 months or later and then serve, it sends the wrong message (unless you are definitely acting upon it).

Quite the contrary, imo, as it would then be in direct response to T's behaviour. So the message would be extremely clear.

boletus
12-12-2011, 10:19 AM
Quite the contrary, imo, as it would then be in direct response to T's behaviour. So the message would be extremely clear.

It does send an extremely clear message- that the landlord is unhappy with the tenant and wants them to leave.

In most cases, that is not what I want.

I just want the mechanism in place to get rid of a tenant relatively quickly if I so choose. Even if that is 5 years down the line. As Mariner calls it a 'precautionary' s21.

I agree it should be served as a separate document.

Snorkerz
12-12-2011, 10:34 AM
Boletus, I respect your comments, and like you, don't want to get into a long discussion about the rights and wrongs. However the protection for the tenant when a landlord wants to use his (relatively new) rights to possess without fault is that the tenant is given 2 months notice before court action is even commenced. Your scheme removes this right from the tenant, an important right as we are talking about homelessness here. In light of standard timescales for the accelerated process they could easily be given an eviction date only a month after they first hear of your claim.

Surely, if you want the tenant out because they are doing something wrong, that is what section 8 is for?

boletus
12-12-2011, 12:22 PM
Boletus, I respect your comments, and like you, don't want to get into a long discussion about the rights and wrongs. However the protection for the tenant when a landlord wants to use his (relatively new) rights to possess without fault is that the tenant is given 2 months notice before court action is even commenced. Your scheme removes this right from the tenant, an important right as we are talking about homelessness here. In light of standard timescales for the accelerated process they could easily be given an eviction date only a month after they first hear of your claim.

Surely, if you want the tenant out because they are doing something wrong, that is what section 8 is for?

Snorkerz, you are correct.

I can only reply with the rather weak argument that I would not use this unless as a last resort, I have learnt through experience, and that it is all within the law (though maybe not within the spirit of it).

As you, more than most, are aware*, the s8 process is very easy to manipulate in the tenants favour. All within the law of course (though maybe not within the spirit of it).

There are endless amounts of landlords on here complaining that the system is unfair. I disagree, it just needs to be used to your own best advantage.

If anyone does wish to discuss the morality of this, I suggest they start a new thread on 'Take a Break'.

*congratulations on your 8000 helpful posts BTW. I'm sure you've been a great help to a lot of desperate tenants and landlords alike- not just the evil ones like me!

Snorkerz
12-12-2011, 15:41 PM
Okay Boletus, time for a little mutual admiration! I was suprised to see your post count at only the 300 mark. You have become a regular on the board and with this one glaring horendous exception (:(giggle):) you come over as a voice of reason. I will continue to regard your posts as carrying an air of authority - you obviously know your stuff.

Maybe we need to draft a revised s8 for Grant Shapps consideration - after all he doesn't seem to be doing anything important at the moment.