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Cfercat
07-12-2011, 18:42 PM
Hello

I am new here and am looking for some advice on a difficult situation

I have long term tenants in a property.

I recently tried to evict them using an S21. This went to court.

It was thrown out of court in their favour due to the date they moved in, in 1995. I have since found out this is because they are assured tenants as I failed to give them an S20 when they moved in.

I asked them to sign an AST in 2004, but again did not get them to sign anything to say that we agreed to this.

Can I use any of the terms set out in the 2004 agreement for discretionary grounds, or is the WHOLE agreement that they signed in 2004 null and void?

Snorkerz
07-12-2011, 18:47 PM
Even if you got them to sign an agreement in 2004 it would not have been an AST, because they can not sign away their assured rights.

You can only evict them if they do something wrong as per schedule 2 of the 1988 Housing Act.

Cfercat
07-12-2011, 20:45 PM
So does this mean the 2004 AST is invalid and cancelled out by the assured tenancy?

45002
07-12-2011, 21:18 PM
So does this mean the 2004 AST is invalid and cancelled out by the assured tenancy?

Yes..........


you moved in between 15 January 1989 and 27 February 1997 and your landlord did not give you a notice saying that you have an assured shorthold tenancy.

Before the tenancy started..

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/renting_and_leasehold/private_tenancies/assured_tenancies

Cfercat
07-12-2011, 21:28 PM
And so due to this I am unable to use any of the discretionary grounds in the 2004 AST to evict them?

45002
07-12-2011, 21:34 PM
And so due to this I am unable to use any of the discretionary grounds in the 2004 AST to evict them?

Discretionary grounds would be under there Assured tenancy,they dont have a AST as the court said...

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/renting_and_leasehold/private_tenancies/assured_tenancies#9

Your highly unlikely to get a possession order,unless the tenants have done something serious wrong...

Cfercat
07-12-2011, 21:39 PM
Ok, thank you.

Think I may have sitting tenants then due to error on my part.

Snorkerz
08-12-2011, 09:27 AM
These are the grounds that you CAN evict your tenant under - note 9-17 are at the judges discretion.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/schedule/2

45002
08-12-2011, 13:05 PM
These are the grounds that you CAN evict your tenant under - note 9-17 are at the judges discretion.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/schedule/2

Still highly unlike,unless the tenants have done something serious wrong,the LL or solicitor gets it wrong at court and LL ends up with a Huge Legal Bill....

LL already had one case thrown out of court.

Cfercat
08-12-2011, 14:45 PM
Could I get away with saying I want to property for myself, even if I didn't, or will that end up getting me into trouble?

The tenants have been in the property for 16 years.

Lingy
08-12-2011, 15:05 PM
Are they bad payers? any reason why you want them out so badly?

Mrs Mug
08-12-2011, 15:06 PM
Could I get away with saying I want to property for myself,

At the start of the tenancy did you give your tenant notice in writing that you might want the property back to live in it yourself?

Cfercat
08-12-2011, 15:12 PM
No, they went into some arrears a couple of years ago, but they paid it all back. Previous to that they were good payers, and have been since.

No the tenancy was verbal, and I did not say I would need the property at a later date.

45002
08-12-2011, 16:33 PM
No, they went into some arrears a couple of years ago, but they paid it all back. Previous to that they were good payers, and have been since.

No the tenancy was verbal, and I did not say I would need the property at a later date.


May i ask why you want the property back ? given that you already lost 1 court case.

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?43304-Evicting-tenants&p=346005#post346005

Cfercat
08-12-2011, 17:04 PM
Yes, I do not want to continue being a landlord and wish to sell the property, but I want to sell it without anyone in it. But I am thinking this is not going to be the case after reading the replies I've had?

Cfercat
08-12-2011, 19:08 PM
Yes, I do not want to continue being a landlord and wish to sell the property, but I want to sell it without anyone in it. But I am thinking this is not going to be the case after reading the replies I've had?

I posted this, and the thread was showing that there had been a reply, but when I checked I could not see one.

Snorkerz
08-12-2011, 19:19 PM
Could I get away with saying I want to property for myself, even if I didn't, or will that end up getting me into trouble?

The tenants have been in the property for 16 years.You've read the grounds... Ground 1 says you can do this IF you have served the notice refered to by Mr Mug. You didn't, you can't.

Those were the grounds the tenancy was granted on, why should they change?

mariner
09-12-2011, 15:25 PM
Did you inherit property with Ts in situ or just bought to rent th Ts in 1995?
Either way you have Assured Tenants that cannot be evicted, so can't sell with vacant possession. There are other LLs & investments Companies willing to purchase properties with sitting Ts, in certain areas but the price offered will be lower than empty market value.

45002
09-12-2011, 15:56 PM
Did you inherit property with Ts in situ or just bought to rent th Ts in 1995?
Either way you have Assured Tenants that cannot be evicted, so can't sell with vacant possession. There are other LLs & investments Companies willing to purchase properties with sitting Ts, in certain areas but the price offered will be lower than empty market value.

OP 1st post give you the answers mariner. http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?43304-Evicting-tenants&p=346005#post346005

theartfullodger
09-12-2011, 16:39 PM
Could I get away with saying I want to property for myself, even if I didn't...........

Now, that's a tough one: In other words, should you knowingly lie to the court...

Well, being aware of British justice as we are the answer is bleedin' obvious...

You are asking if an immoral & illegal act is OK: Apart from moral questions, suggest you read the forum rules..