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View Full Version : Should we pursue monies owed by evicted tenants?



kellyp
23-09-2011, 15:56 PM
Hi, I'm new to the site, so sorry if this is a boring question! We are so stressed by this; we are now suffering financially.

- They have a 12-month lease, two months' notice will be served on December 1.

- They are now three months behind in rent.

- We have issued a section 8 and that's now expired.

- We have a landlord agency working with us, and he has suggested that a section 21 might frighten them, but that the tenants will not have to leave until the end of the term.

- Do we now begin court proceedings? And has anyone got experience of actually winning such a case and evicting the tenant?

Also, we believed they falsified the letters stating that they had 'lived with his mother' previously. Neither letter has a contact address (yes, this is our first time).

Any help/suggestions welcome.

kellyp

Snorkerz
23-09-2011, 16:02 PM
If you commence section 8 proceedings now, you may get a court hearing/decision in mid November. So long as your section 8 notice included ground 8, the tenants owed at least 2 months rent at the time of service AND they still owe it at the time of hearing, then possession is mandatory.

There is no need to wait until December to issue the s21 - do it now to ensure everything is in place - just incase the s8 fails. http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/ast_tenants_not_in_breach_of_contract/0-37

Winning the court case is only part of the process, the judge will give the tenant 2-6 weeks to leave, and if they don't, you can expect iro another 6 weeks to organise bailiffs. http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/ast_tenants_in_breach_of_contract/0-36

kellyp
23-09-2011, 16:11 PM
If you commence section 8 proceedings now, you may get a court hearing/decision in mid November. So long as your section 8 notice included ground 8, the tenants owed at least 2 months rent at the time of service AND they still owe it at the time of hearing, then possession is mandatory.

There is no need to wait until December to issue the s21 - do it now to ensure everything is in place - just incase the s8 fails. http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/ast_tenants_not_in_breach_of_contract/0-37

Winning the court case is only part of the process, the judge will give the tenant 2-6 weeks to leave, and if they don't, you can expect iro another 6 weeks to organise bailiffs. http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/ast_tenants_in_breach_of_contract/0-36

Thank you. This tenant works for a letting agent, so I imagine she knows that they will pay before the court case. Do they have to pay all arrears, or a token amount to avoid eviction?

Snorkerz
23-09-2011, 18:05 PM
To avoid mandatory eviction they have to not owe 2 months rent at the time of eviction. So if rent is £500pm, and they have paid enough so that they only owe you £999 then it is not mandatory. HOWEVER, if you have also used grounds 10 & 11 then the judge can still consider these - if he thinks the problem is severe enough to make someone homeless, he can still grant you possession.

Just one minor point. On monthly tenancy periods, it is the amount unpaid, not the arrears (these are different things). It will avoid confusion if you ensure you always use the 'unpaid' word on court paperwork etc.

Snorkerz
23-09-2011, 18:07 PM
This tenant works for a letting agentWhat can I say?

kellyp
23-09-2011, 18:11 PM
To avoid mandatory eviction they have to not owe 2 months rent at the time of eviction. So if rent is £500pm, and they have paid enough so that they only owe you £999 then it is not mandatory. HOWEVER, if you have also used grounds 10 & 11 then the judge can still consider these - if he thinks the problem is severe enough to make someone homeless, he can still grant you possession.

Just one minor point. On monthly tenancy periods, it is the amount unpaid, not the arrears (these are different things). It will avoid confusion if you ensure you always use the 'unpaid' word on court paperwork etc.

Thanks so much!

kellyp

kellyp
23-09-2011, 18:29 PM
What can I say?

Say that violence is sometimes justified?



JUST KIDDING!

kellyp
24-09-2011, 05:47 AM
Or if they lied to us as to where they'd lived?

We've found the previous address and are trying to track down the owners.

kellyp

Ericthelobster
24-09-2011, 08:17 AM
Or if they lied to us as to where they'd lived?

We've found the previous address and are trying to track down the owners.Defaulted per se - no.
Providing untruthful information on a tenancy application - probably.

Snorkerz
24-09-2011, 08:46 AM
You could add ground 17 (discretionary) to your section 8 notice, but that would require a re-issue and so an additional 14 days delay. Based on your other post the tenant currently owes 2 months + rent, which is mandatory so long as it stays at that level.

Your call.

MODERATOR: Pls merge with:
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?41614-Need-help-with-tenants-refusing-to-pay-rent

kellyp
27-09-2011, 06:49 AM
Thank you all for your advice. Our legal reps have, today, initiated Court proceedings re: rent arrears of more than two months, and they are proceeding with a S21.

They have advised us to not pursue any retrospective discrepancies (references, etc.) as this may be perceived as harrassment.

K

Snorkerz
27-09-2011, 09:39 AM
Are you sure you need the expense of legal representation? Section 8 & Section 21 are both diy-able if they go according to plan, it is only when things like disrepair claims come into the frame that they get complex.

Your choice - the perceived peace of mind may be worth the cost.

I am not sure how including a ground 17 issue on the s8 could even vaguely be construed as harassment. Perhaps police murder investigations should be stopped after 2 years - well it would be harassment to dig it up after all this time :(

theartfullodger
30-09-2011, 19:05 PM
........
They have advised us to not pursue any retrospective discrepancies (references, etc.) as this may be perceived as harrassment.

.......

Surprised at that if you have cast-iron proof....

This case may be of interest where council gained possession order on grounds of T lying...


Windsor & District Housing Association
v Hewitt
It was right to award possession where the
landlord had been induced to grant a tenancy by
a false statement and there was no evidence that
the tenant had forgotten her earlier statement.
Court of Appeal
19 May 2011



However, note, in this case council could not use S21 route so don't assume lying on application forms would be taken as grounds that will get you possession order with an AST where S21 route easy for the landlord who can get his paperwork correct..

Cheers!

Artful

kellyp
14-10-2011, 16:47 PM
Thanks so much for all of your replies; must say that Husband and I were so stressed by all of this we were happy to hand it over to a rep/specialist agency. And, being new to this, we didn't have the confidence to proceed sans assistance.

Husband goes to court on November 1, with specialist agency rep. and with our Letting Agent.

Tenants have muddied the waters with references to disrepair (turning down boiler and claiming malfunction), but we and our Agents have documented due diligence.

Upon receiving the court papers, they emailed Agent to say they would be vacating on November 21 (three weeks after court case) and that they would be issuing counterclaim for breach of contract on our part... re: disrepair, and suing for the fact they've had to find alternative accommodation. Oh, yeah, and they would pay all monies owing.

Agent was quick to confirm their move out date in writing, to refute their long line of claims re: disrepair, and to remind them that they now owed four months' rent. We also have contractors' statements to support us.

Our legal guy says we need to demand a Letter of Surrender, and, until then, the tenant will be liable for rent - even if they're not there.

Is there a standard form for such a demand? I have tried to log in to the documents here, but they won't allow me access?

Once again, thanks for your time and support.

kellyp

Snorkerz
14-10-2011, 18:09 PM
I have tried to log in to the documents here, but they won't allow me access? The forum and the 'site' are different - you need to register for the main site.

mariner
14-10-2011, 18:27 PM
You need a 'Deed of Surrender'

westminster
15-10-2011, 13:54 PM
We have a landlord agency working with us, and he has suggested that a section 21 might frighten them, but that the tenants will not have to leave until the end of the term.
A s.21 notice is not a notice to quit, and does not oblige the T to vacate.



They have advised us to not pursue any retrospective discrepancies (references, etc.) as this may be perceived as harrassment.
Rubbish.



Our legal guy says we need to demand a Letter of Surrender, and, until then, the tenant will be liable for rent - even if they're not there.
The T is liable for rent up to either expiry of the fixed term (and beyond that if a statutory periodic tenancy arises), or up to the date you, having obtained a possession order, get a court bailiff to execute the order.

The T cannot simply send a letter surrendering the tenancy before fixed term expiry. For there to be an early surrender, a Deed of Surrender must be drafted, signed by both LL and T, and witnessed by a third party. Unless the T pays all the unpaid rent, and moves out, you should not agree to sign a Deed of Surrender.

If your 'legal guy' has advised you otherwise, then his legal qualifications are questionable.

kellyp
16-10-2011, 06:59 AM
A s.21 notice is not a notice to quit, and does not oblige the T to vacate.


Rubbish.


The T is liable for rent up to either expiry of the fixed term (and beyond that if a statutory periodic tenancy arises), or up to the date you, having obtained a possession order, get a court bailiff to execute the order.

The T cannot simply send a letter surrendering the tenancy before fixed term expiry. For there to be an early surrender, a Deed of Surrender must be drafted, signed by both LL and T, and witnessed by a third party. Unless the T pays all the unpaid rent, and moves out, you should not agree to sign a Deed of Surrender.

If your 'legal guy' has advised you otherwise, then his legal qualifications are questionable.

Thanks so much; I'll put this to our 'guy'. To be honest, we'd like them out of the house - then we will pursue further action, including the fact that they falsified their references.

K

K

kellyp
01-11-2011, 17:08 PM
Our claim for possession was successful. They have 14 days and then it's the warrant for possession.

We'll then pursue the monies owing.

Does anyone have experience of listing 'bad tenants' on sites devoted to this information?

K

kellyp
15-11-2011, 19:29 PM
Our 'guy' tells us that as their credit rating has now been damaged, they will have to pay us back to rectify that, so no need to pursue? His approach has always been 'gentle' and, certainly, he got the Eviction Ruling.

We want to pursue for the £4k owing, if only to kick their asses (but we do need the money).

Do we:

Hire a lawyer?

Use an agency who offer us 60p in every £ they recover - no win, no fee?

Publish their names on a 'bad tenants' site?

Any advice welcome.

K

westminster
15-11-2011, 20:12 PM
Moderator please merge with OP's previous thread
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?41624-Will-it-help-our-case-if-the-tenants-also-defaulted-on-previous-rental-agreement

westminster
15-11-2011, 21:09 PM
It would appear from your previous thread that you evicted T via s.8 route, so you now have an order for the £4K debt - ?

You don't need to pay a solicitor or a debt collector (and I would be very cautious of the latter). 'Bad tenant' websites are pointless at best, libellous at worst.

You can enforce the judgment yourself, read the HM Courts leaflet EX321
http://hmctscourtfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCTS/GetLeaflet.do?court_leaflets_id=219

kellyp
16-11-2011, 16:59 PM
It would appear from your previous thread that you evicted T via s.8 route, so you now have an order for the £4K debt - ?

You don't need to pay a solicitor or a debt collector (and I would be very cautious of the latter). 'Bad tenant' websites are pointless at best, libellous at worst.

You can enforce the judgment yourself, read the HM Courts leaflet EX321
http://hmctscourtfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCTS/GetLeaflet.do?court_leaflets_id=219

Thanks again.

K

Snorkerz
17-11-2011, 01:21 AM
If they have been evicted under section 21 then their credit record has not been affected as the supposed debt is not recorded anywhere.

If they have been evicted under section 8 (with an order for payment of rent) then their credit record will only be damaged if you commence court enforcement action. This article gives a run-down of the enforcement options. http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/nov/20/small-claims-court-enforce-judgment

I would be suprised if you can find an agency willing to take on such a debt (and would want their names for my own unfulfilled debts!).

kellyp
17-11-2011, 18:15 PM
If they have been evicted under section 21 then their credit record has not been affected as the supposed debt is not recorded anywhere.

If they have been evicted under section 8 (with an order for payment of rent) then their credit record will only be damaged if you commence court enforcement action. This article gives a run-down of the enforcement options. http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/nov/20/small-claims-court-enforce-judgment

I would be suprised if you can find an agency willing to take on such a debt (and would want their names for my own unfulfilled debts!).

Yes, we started with 21 and ramped up to 8. Thanks for the info.: we didn't realise we had to activate the damage of their credit record.

Our 'guy' failed us on that one. ;-)

Thank you.

K

kellyp
22-11-2011, 20:29 PM
So much depends on it!

K

Dan_Manchester
22-11-2011, 22:02 PM
Hi Kelly,

I'd suggest you attempt to review the electoral register, there are a number of websites that can help however it takes a number of months to be updated and of course they may choose to 'delay' putting their names on the list....

Good luck and give us posted

Snorkerz
22-11-2011, 22:32 PM
So much depends on it! KUsa a tracing agent - cost approx £50 no find no fee.

lynneinjapan
22-11-2011, 22:52 PM
'Bad tenant' websites are pointless at best, libellous at worst.
I disagree - when you get rid of them they'll go to another landlord and quite possibly rip them off too. If you register their details on TenantID.co.uk and/or landlordreferencing.co.uk then other landlords can be warned that they're liable to be a problem. If they haven't paid the rent then there's nothing libellous about saying so - just give facts, not opinions.

kellyp
23-11-2011, 16:55 PM
I disagree - when you get rid of them they'll go to another landlord and quite possibly rip them off too. If you register their details on TenantID.co.uk and/or landlordreferencing.co.uk then other landlords can be warned that they're liable to be a problem. If they haven't paid the rent then there's nothing libellous about saying so - just give facts, not opinions.

I do tend to agree with you; these people will do this again.
In terms of libel, the site I've sourced said to post just the facts. I wonder if many landlords use these sites?

kellyp
23-11-2011, 16:55 PM
Usa a tracing agent - cost approx £50 no find no fee.

Thanks so much.

kellyp
23-11-2011, 18:19 PM
We have the details of his new business premises, his phone number, his company website, even his company's FB page! I've sent all of this to a tracing agent. I don't know if they will find the home address: these people have covered all tracks... even installing a coin meter for gas and electric without permission.

Without their home address, the court won't execute the order, apparently.
We're going for 'garnishing' I believe.



K

Ericthelobster
23-11-2011, 19:40 PM
these people have covered all tracks... even installing a coin meter for gas and electric without permission.That frequently gets done without the account holder's "permission" either...utility companies enforce it on non-payers, as a way of ensuring they get paid (and can recoup debt by setting a high tariff).


Without their home address, the court won't execute the order, apparently.It's definitely worth writing to the court in advance and asking permission to use the business address for service of documents etc - I've done that when applying for an Attachment of Earnings order but had no idea where the ex-tenant now lived; the court agreed and I got paid back in full! :o:

kellyp
24-11-2011, 15:18 PM
That frequently gets done without the account holder's "permission" either...utility companies enforce it on non-payers, as a way of ensuring they get paid (and can recoup debt by setting a high tariff).

It's definitely worth writing to the court in advance and asking permission to use the business address for service of documents etc - I've done that when applying for an Attachment of Earnings order but had no idea where the ex-tenant now lived; the court agreed and I got paid back in full! :o:

Thank you! We'll try that route.

K

lynneinjapan
25-11-2011, 14:46 PM
I believe that both of them have just started up in the last few months so it will be a while before they achieve critical mass, but there's nothing to lose by signing up now.

lynneinjapan
27-11-2011, 15:40 PM
I believe that both of them have just started up in the last few months so it will be a while before they achieve critical mass, but there's nothing to lose by signing up now.
This was in reference to TenantID.co.uk and landlordreferencing.co.uk, by the way - not sure how I managed to get it so badly out of context!

Snorkerz
27-11-2011, 16:30 PM
The marketing manager of Tenant ID is the stepdaughter of the founder of Landlordreferencing.

Can't see either lasting long with such a family squabble in the background. http://www.walkerfox.co.uk/open-letter-paul-routledge-landlord-referencing-services/

It is interesting that landlordreferencing.co.uk is registered as a non-trading website, presumably to keep the registrants (Paul Routledge) personal details off the register. It may only be a little 'untruth'* but it rather makes a joke of his mission to bring justice on all the bad tenants.

*Technically this 'error' could result in the domain being suspended.

kellyp
05-12-2011, 16:10 PM
Hope you're well.



We have been pursuing the route of taking monies owed from the tenant's wages. As they left no forwarding address, we have asked the court if it's ok to serve notice at place of work.


In the meantime, our agents have now established a home address for them (this is all about the ESCRO). The agent says we need a solicitor to get access to that address. Is that correct?

K

theartfullodger
05-12-2011, 17:33 PM
Gain access to??? Do you mean tovgo into the new place (no court would grant that) or for agent to pass it on to you???

If latter then remind agent they work for you and tovgive it to you quick, please!

kellyp
06-12-2011, 07:23 AM
Gain access to??? Do you mean tovgo into the new place (no court would grant that) or for agent to pass it on to you???

If latter then remind agent they work for you and tovgive it to you quick, please!

Sorry! Yes, I meant that the agent would not pass the infomration on to us. I think the agent is concerned about data protection. I'll try your approach.

K

kellyp
02-01-2012, 16:45 PM
Hi again,

We have requested the tenants' forwarding address from our agents. They have asked us to provide a 'legal' request for said address. I've asked 'our guy' to provide a request.

However, I reckon they have only left the address of his new business premises, i.e. we don't have their new residential address.

Do we need the Court's permission to serve our papers at that address? Which form do we need to request Court permission to serve at an address other than the one from which we evicted them?

Regards,

Kelly

kellyp
02-01-2012, 16:48 PM
Also, the tenant has dismissed our claims on the Deposit. We responded via the agent and the tenant dismissed our claims once again. Do we simply instruct our agent to refer it to the ESCRO people?

Thanks again,

Kelly

Snorkerz
02-01-2012, 17:25 PM
Do we need the Court's permission to serve our papers at that address? Which form do we need to request Court permission to serve at an address other than the one from which we evicted them?

You need to find their current residential address. If you make efforts to do so, and fail, THEN you can request permission from the court to serve at last known address (rental) or any other appropriate address (business). The court will not be likely to grant permission unless you provide evidence that you have tried to find the residential address.

Sites like findermonkey do no find no fee, and I suspect a print out from such a company saying they couldn't find them (unlikley) would be sufficient.

Ericthelobster
02-01-2012, 23:36 PM
Do we need the Court's permission to serve our papers at that address? Which form do we need to request Court permission to serve at an address other than the one from which we evicted them?You certainly need permission to serve notices to a work address, and you just write to the court and ask. I don't know how agreeable they normally are to such requests, but for what it's worth, here's the text of a letter I used myself a couple of years ago in the process of obtaining an Attachment of Earnings order, and got a positive result!:(y):

"As mentioned in my previous letter, since Mr Nonpayer vacated my property I do not hold a current home address for him to include on the form. Furthermore, in view of what I know now to be a very bad credit history, I believe it is highly likely that he will not have a permanent current address, and so even if I tracked down where he is presently staying, he would simply be able to deny ever receiving any official communication.

[...]

I have verified today that Mr Nonpayer still works at Workplace Ltd (where he has been employed since 2005). I would therefore be very grateful if the Court would grant permission to use "c/o" his work address in place of a home address."

kellyp
14-01-2012, 09:13 AM
You certainly need permission to serve notices to a work address, and you just write to the court and ask. I don't know how agreeable they normally are to such requests, but for what it's worth, here's the text of a letter I used myself a couple of years ago in the process of obtaining an Attachment of Earnings order, and got a positive result!:(y):

"As mentioned in my previous letter, since Mr Nonpayer vacated my property I do not hold a current home address for him to include on the form. Furthermore, in view of what I know now to be a very bad credit history, I believe it is highly likely that he will not have a permanent current address, and so even if I tracked down where he is presently staying, he would simply be able to deny ever receiving any official communication.

[...]

I have verified today that Mr Nonpayer still works at Workplace Ltd (where he has been employed since 2005). I would therefore be very grateful if the Court would grant permission to use "c/o" his work address in place of a home address."

Thanks Eric; we used your template.

K

kellyp
14-01-2012, 09:18 AM
The Dispute Service: we need to respond to a claim from the tenant for a full refund. We are claiming it all for cleaning, repairs, etc. Our Letting Agent says the The Dispute Service will only look at the 'Check in' report and the 'Check out' report. The tenants have listed many problems with the property and cited our neglect, as well as granny falling over 'broken manhole cover', daughter slipping on 'uneven patio', etc., etc., etc......

We have thorough documentation of repairs, etc. Should we submit this? Or trust our Letting Agent's advice?

K

kellyp
10-02-2012, 18:32 PM
The hearing for them to disclose earnings, etc. is scheduled for March 29. Of course, they won't show, so we'll re-serve.

We sent our thorough documents to the Dispute Service; apparently, because they owe us 4.5k unpaid rent, we should get the entire deposit back.

We'll see.

K

kellyp
09-03-2012, 08:53 AM
Update: We were awarded the full deposit! Now we'll see if they turn up to disclose their earnings/income so that we can enforce the Court Order.

Snorkerz
09-03-2012, 10:30 AM
The 'order to obtain information' has to be served personally upon the judgement debtor - unlike (say) a section 21 notice which can just be posted or left at an appropriate place. This is because failure to attend can ultimately result in imprisonment.

Were you (or bailiffs) able to serve the N316 personally? You also have to send a statement to the court a few days before the scheduled hearing to confirm if any payments have been made.

kellyp
10-03-2012, 09:04 AM
The 'order to obtain information' has to be served personally upon the judgement debtor - unlike (say) a section 21 notice which can just be posted or left at an appropriate place. This is because failure to attend can ultimately result in imprisonment.

Were you (or bailiffs) able to serve the N316 personally? You also have to send a statement to the court a few days before the scheduled hearing to confirm if any payments have been made.

Yes, indeed, the bailiffs successfully served at their work addresses. We're ready to send the affadavit to the court in a couple of weeks.

kellyp
18-04-2012, 16:42 PM
The rogue tenants appeared at Court for an interview and submitted a declaration of what they earn/owe, etc.

The man has declared that he cannot afford to repay the debt (£5k).
He is self-employed. His accounts from last year show 0 profit. His bank balance shows 0. He says his wife pays for everything.

The woman has said she will pay £10 per month, but nothing more.

They also took away applications to set aside the judgement as they cannot afford to pay it. Certainly they look 'poor' based on the information they've supplied. Quelle surprise.

They disclosed the fact that they are disputing a 60k debt they owe to a bank for foreclosure on their mortgage. Used that as leverage.

They were asked if they had any court orders made against them and said no. We have found two or three records of CCJs.

They did not declare that they have a small motor boat in their front yard.

We are unsure of what to do next. We don't trust her to pay the £10 a month, or we might accept it! Clearly they are witholding info. Clearly he contributes something to the household...

Advice please?

K

westminster
18-04-2012, 18:07 PM
There's always the statutory demand route.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/ManagingDebt/CourtClaimsAndBankruptcy/DG_187711

If the debtor doesn't pay, you can then apply for him to be made bankrupt. It's a tactic which will only really work if: 1) the debtor has something to lose by being declared bankrupt, 2) you're actually prepared to follow it through.

kellyp
18-04-2012, 18:49 PM
There's always the statutory demand route.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/ManagingDebt/CourtClaimsAndBankruptcy/DG_187711

If the debtor doesn't pay, you can then apply for him to be made bankrupt. It's a tactic which will only really work if: 1) the debtor has something to lose by being declared bankrupt, 2) you're actually prepared to follow it through.

Thank you.

Won't they just issue a request to 'put aside' the judgement if we take this route? I think they're planning this already. The 'debtor' is both of them, but he's hiding behind his 'self-employment', so she cannot afford to repay the debt - on paper.

Snorkerz
18-04-2012, 18:52 PM
The first thing to hit my mid is "who owns the boat"?

If they do - you send in the bailiffs (maybe better with HCEOs) and get that off them.

kellyp
18-04-2012, 18:59 PM
The first thing to hit my mid is "who owns the boat"?

If they do - you send in the bailiffs (maybe better with HCEOs) and get that off them.

Yes. But if we send in the bailiffs,and they don't 'own' enough to recover the 5k (we have no idea on boat's worth), doesn't that mean we can have nothing?

If we 'know' that they have been dishonest in the declaration, do we have to resubmit for another £450?

kellyp
18-04-2012, 19:15 PM
There's always the statutory demand route.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/ManagingDebt/CourtClaimsAndBankruptcy/DG_187711

If the debtor doesn't pay, you can then apply for him to be made bankrupt. It's a tactic which will only really work if: 1) the debtor has something to lose by being declared bankrupt, 2) you're actually prepared to follow it through.

They indicated on the declaration that they are considering 'bankruptcy lite'; would a letter from a solicitor telling them we're about to apply to make them properly bankrupt work?

westminster
18-04-2012, 19:18 PM
Won't they just issue a request to 'put aside' the judgement if we take this route?
The debtor would need grounds to have the statutory demand set aside, such as that the amount owing is disputed. You have a county court judgment, so it's not disputed (unless the debtor appeals the CCJ and wins, but that doesn't seem likely when rent is an indisputable debt. Also, they're past the deadline for applying for permission to appeal, so I think they'd need to cite exceptional circumstances).

See http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1084611137&type=RESOURCES

I gather, though, that if you accept payment via the £10 installments, this would prevent you pursuing the SD route, so I'd hold off accepting that offer until you've explored the options.


The 'debtor' is both of them, but he's hiding behind his 'self-employment', so she cannot afford to repay the debt - on paper.
Sounds to me like there's a good chance they're hiding money/assets and that the threat of bankruptcy could be something they'd respond to. These are not benefits claimants with zero assets to their name, they are scammers.

The boat is certainly worth a pop and I agree with Snorkerz you might get better results with a High Court Enforcement Officer (e.g. you could try these ones who were on TV recently http://www.thesheriffsoffice.com/ )

westminster
18-04-2012, 19:21 PM
They indicated on the declaration that they are considering 'bankruptcy lite'; would a letter from a solicitor telling them we're about to apply to make them properly bankrupt work?
You need to issue the statutory demand first. That's ample warning that you may be about to apply to make them properly bankrupt.

Does the male have a limited company, BTW? Because he can't be a director if he's bankrupt.

Snorkerz
18-04-2012, 19:46 PM
Yes. But if we send in the bailiffs,and they don't 'own' enough to recover the 5k (we have no idea on boat's worth), doesn't that mean we can have nothing?If you use HCEOs (High Court Enforcement Officers) they will go in (usually just a few days after you instruct them) and and recover whatever they can - that may make several visits. Their fees are taken from the debtors assets first, but whatever else they get, comes off the amount owed to you.

There is a £60 fee to have it transferred to the High Court, but HCEOs have more powers (and incentive) than salaried county court bailiffs. I believe the £60 fee is added to what the debtor owes.


If we 'know' that they have been dishonest in the declaration, do we have to resubmit for another £450?I suspect that if you can prove they have dishonest then they are in contempt of court (which is imprisonable). I am not clear how you officially take action regarding contempt.

kellyp
18-04-2012, 19:47 PM
We totally get that they are scammers; they have played the system expertly. They've been here before.

We'll look closely at that SD route and keep you updated.

Thanks again for so much support.

K

kellyp
18-04-2012, 19:50 PM
Oh, and no... he doesn't have a limited company, sadly. "Trading as", we think.

Car repair.

Snorkerz
18-04-2012, 19:53 PM
Oh, and no... he doesn't have a limited company, sadly. "Trading as", we think.

It's good really, can't claim assets belong to the limited company.

kellyp
20-04-2012, 15:45 PM
Spoke to the Sherrifs Office: very helpful. They recognise the tenants as scammers and so doubt that property will be in their own name, etc. Advised us to to go for Attachment of Earnings.

Doing that this w/e.

westminster
20-04-2012, 17:01 PM
They recognise the tenants as scammers and so doubt that property will be in their own name, etc.
That much is easy to establish. Check on the Land Registry online. Cost £4.

kellyp
20-04-2012, 18:15 PM
That much is easy to establish. Check on the Land Registry online. Cost £4.

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant the boat, the cars, etc. All the goods a bailiff might grab!

kellyp
20-04-2012, 18:20 PM
And can I add: what a crock the declaration of earnings is! They sign the document to say that the Clerk's record of the interview is 'true' - not that they told the truth!

kellyp
25-04-2012, 16:28 PM
They have been sent the N56; imagine they'll fill in the same bogus figures they sent in last time, so I'm hoping the court acknowledges that they witheld information on their declaration of earnings.

We think they'll request a suspension so that her employer is not involved.

She has offered to pay £10 a month, so the court may decide that she must do only that.

Might follow up with the Stat. Demand next - threaten her with bankruptcy.

However this ends, their address will be forwarded to every creditor who is chasing them.

vicks
25-04-2012, 20:11 PM
Might follow up with the Stat. Demand next - threaten her with bankruptcy.


Statutory demands used to be good when people used to be scard of being made bankrupt, nowadays I find that unless your acutally going to follow through with the bankrupcy its pointless.


However this ends, their address will be forwarded to every creditor who is chasing them.


Am sure this could be a breach of the Data Protection Act 1998, do not be tempted to pass personal information onto other people you could end up in serious trouble.


Good Luck getting your money back...

kellyp
26-04-2012, 05:19 AM
Am sure this could be a breach of the Data Protection Act 1998, do not be tempted to pass personal information onto other people you could end up in serious trouble.


Good Luck getting your money back...

Sage advice, I know. :-)

I think we'll stick at getting the £10 a month back until they declare themselves bankrupt. I sometimes get stuck on the principle of the thing, kwim?

K

kellyp
16-05-2012, 18:12 PM
They replied to the Court saying they were not earning enough to pay any back.

She said her husband's business was in deep debt and they could not make ends meet. (Rent arrears at his workshop of 2325, employees tax 3000 and business rates outstanding 2000.) Hers is the sole income.

She also said: 'I would ask that you would consider not proceeding with an attachment of earnings and consider another form of enforcement if this is deemed appropriate.'

We have to sit tight and see what the Court reckons, but we are not hopeful.

She also offered 'to provide written evidence of all outgoings and debts if your require.' I think I may ask the Court to follow that up - I don't want to pay for it, but since she's offered,it's worth a try.

I wonder why she didn't take the easier route of saying the attachment of earnings would effect her employment/prospects of promotion?

K

kellyp
19-05-2012, 09:49 AM
The Court has set aside the Attachment of Earnings. I must say, the Court has been remarkably blind to inconsistencies in their statements and I shall be contacting the Ombusdman.

We shall try the bailiffs route: Sherriff's lot didn't think it would be worthwhile, but others might.

Barclays are investigating the financial reference they gave at the beginning of the tenancy. It doesn't look authentic, and more importantly, it indicates that his business is the key source of income for the rent. A fact they both denied later - saying it was her sole responsibility.

These investigations are costing nothing; we know we won't get our 5k back, but it would be nice to think that justice might be served.

theartfullodger
19-05-2012, 10:30 AM
The Court has set aside the Attachment of Earnings. .......

......

... it would be nice to think that justice might be served.

a) On what grounds were attachment of earnings set aside??

b) I fear you are confusing justice with the British legal system: Two entirely different things...

Ericthelobster
19-05-2012, 10:39 AM
The Court has set aside the Attachment of Earnings. I must say, the Court has been remarkably blind to inconsistencies in their statements and I shall be contacting the Ombusdman.As Artful says, you need to find out why it's been set aside. You should certainly have sight of whatever statement of income/outgoings the debtor has provided; quite likely he has contrived to increase his 'protected' income above the level at which there's any surplus to pay you.

I once was in a similar situation; my ex-tenant claimed in a signed statement that he was paying ~£400 per month plus utilities in rent; however I was able to provide proof to the judge that the address he claimed to be renting was actually his parental home - in other words, even if he was paying them some rent, he'd lied through his teeth on the form.

I thought my ex-tenant (who hadn't bothered turning up to court) would be immediately arrested and clapped in irons for contempt of court or something, but other than the AoE order being upped considerably, there were no repercussions on the debtor at all.

kellyp
19-05-2012, 16:17 PM
Thanks for the replies. The Court letter simply says (see next post).


We have received two statements: one when we demanded payment, and one when we asked for Attachment of earnings. They differ in small ways - £10 increase in outgoings here and there, just to make the numbers look worse.
Interestingly, the first list admitted a 68K loan default that was in dispute. That's disappeared 30 days later?

In her 'cry poor letter' to the Court she offered written proof of outgoings and incomings. We responded with a request to see those documents, but two days later we got the ruling.

Ombusdsman or the Chief Clerk/Big Banana?

kellyp
19-05-2012, 16:41 PM
Sorry, my Husband has pointed out that it isn't a setting aside. This is what the Court says:

The attachment of earnings application in respect of [ex-tenant] is adjourned generally with liberty to restore given the Defendants financial position.

K

kellyp
23-06-2012, 10:31 AM
Update:

We have written to the Court to query why they did not respond to our letter highlighting inconsistencies in the tenants' financial statements, as this might have influenced the ruling.

We also wrote to the Court to advise us as to how we would know the correct time to 'restore'.

Probably a waste of time, but it takes five minutes to write a letter.

Barclays has been very responsive in that they have sent two holding letters, thanking us for our patience as they investigate the reference. I imagine that if it was legit, we would have had a quick response. The manager of the branch that faxed the reference to our agent says they do have a 'Rachel' working for them (no last name on the reference)but she is not authorised to issue references. All tenant references come from their central office - not branches.

Bottome line is that the man had just lost his business, and had just defaulted on a mortgage owing 68k: surely not a safe bet for 'regular rental payments'? I know the banks accept no responsibility for their references, but if they defended this reference, it would make all such references (from Barclays) meaningless.

And finally, the man says he has zero income: we've discovered he may be moonlighting for his brother's company.

K

kellyp
14-07-2012, 11:51 AM
So. Barclays called today. They said they do have information regarding the reference, but they can only release it to our Letting Agents. We're assuming that means the ref. was false? Anyhow, we shall ask Letting Agent to give that permission. I wonder if they have grounds to say 'no'? Confidentiality of some sort? Our line is that the reference was faxed from a branch of Barclays: Letting Agent confirmed that, as did we.
Anyone have any experience of this?

kellyp
22-08-2012, 11:55 AM
Update:

A victory of sorts. The Court have offerred us, no charge, the opportunity to put a new set of questions to the debtors and to request documents to prove their outgoings. This should unearth a lot!

The debtors were dishonest on the EX140, particularly with regard to the question 'Have any court orders been issued against you?'. They said 'No', but we have copies of several. We have queried at least two vehicles they did not declare.
Of course, they'll try and weasel out of it, but it will make our point.

Barclays have refused to discuss the reference issued by one of their employees(we believe it to be fake), so it's a letter to the Ombudsman next.

So, a letter here and there - and a few hours pawing through the declarations on the EX140s and comparing them to the declarations on the N25 - have proven fruitful.

K

kellyp
15-10-2012, 16:03 PM
Court date set for November.

Ombudsman looking into the Barclays reference.

Still on the back burner. Still bubbling. :-)

kellyp
02-11-2012, 10:59 AM
Once again, our Attachment of Earnings was dismissed. Debtors attended court with none of the documentation we requested (proof of income and outgoings). Seriously? What is this Judge on? Another letter on the way..... sigh.

Hasbean
02-11-2012, 13:14 PM
..... What is this Judge on? ......
A higher income than you perhaps ;)

kellyp
07-11-2012, 11:33 AM
A higher income than you perhaps ;)

Undoubtedly. I'm a lowly teacher... :-)

Pixxes me off! Looking forward to getting his ass busted!

kellyp
05-04-2013, 16:09 PM
Update.

We have employed bailiffs to pursue; the County Court was a complete waste of time and money.

The Banking Ombudsman was not useful: long-winded and, to my mind, very much supported the bank. If I had the energy or time, I'd pursue.

So, let's see how a High Court Order and a bailiff goes, hey?

kellyp
18-08-2013, 17:08 PM
We sent in High Court bailiffs. Not enough property to make the 4k they owed us. She wouldn't let them in. Boat would have cost 2k to remove, apparently.

Bailiff says that the High Court Order won't be recorded now? Is that right?

kellyp
18-08-2013, 17:17 PM
His car business also yielded little worth claiming, apparently.

vicks
19-08-2013, 19:12 PM
We sent in High Court bailiffs. Not enough property to make the 4k they owed us. She wouldn't let them in. Boat would have cost 2k to remove, apparently.

Bailiff says that the High Court Order won't be recorded now? Is that right?

Please excuse me I've not read all the posts.

You've instructed High Court Enforcement Officer's who's attended and the defendant refused to let them in? (Obstruction and/or Resistance comes to mind both an offence) and it appears there is an asset in the form of a boat which would of cost £2k to remove? Why remove when the HCEO could have held a sale on site. They should of left a form 55 (notice of seizure and if the defendant refused to pay arranged for the item to be sold)


Bailiff says that the High Court Order won't be recorded now? Is that right?

From what I've read you've got a County Court Judgment which has been transferred up to the High Court for enforcement, it doesn't mean it is now a High Court Order. If you've requested judgment (which clearly you have) then this will mark the defendants credit file.

Has the HCEO given up now?

kellyp
20-08-2013, 10:56 AM
Thanks, Vicks. Yes, they've given up. To be honest, we found the entire bailiff route time-consuming and peopled by incompetents or scammers(hopefully, this was just a one-off experience). He was rather sympathetic with her 'kind', he told me: they have nothing, run-up debt and move on...

I'm glad that, at least, we have damaged their credit file... as many before us have.

We befriended their subsequent landlord, compared and confirmed faked references, and have a current address for them. Through various means, I find that they are planning a holiday in Crete in five weeks time.

The Court told us they could not afford to pay our 4K; I don't know that we will continue to pursue. We are forwarding their new addresses to all the creditors who write to our property (don't give a darn about any data protection at this stage).

I reckon the bloke's business is a cash-only thing, and that he does alright.

We have, in the intervening months, moved in to the property - just up the road from them!

I seriously could not sleep at night if I lived like this - what an example to set for their young children.

Thanks for letting me rant!

K

vicks
20-08-2013, 11:08 AM
This type of process can be very frustrating for landlords.

Is the boat worth anything?

kellyp
21-08-2013, 06:01 AM
No more than 2k.

K

vicks
22-08-2013, 22:40 PM
No more than 2k.

K

So the HCEO could arrange a sale on site, you wont get your full money however at least you will get something.