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apple
13-10-2011, 12:27 PM
i issued a section 21 on 11th october giving two months notice to expire on 11th december. rent is due on the 12th of month.

i didn't post it through until 6pm and have now realised this was too late and it would be deemed to be served on the 12th oct.

what should i do now?

thanks in advance!

theartfullodger
13-10-2011, 12:43 PM
I'm thinking chances are current S21 would be found invalid (two counts, wording & served late..) if it gets to court (assuming 1/2 decent advice to tenant..).

When you "posted it through" (? their letterbox??) did you have a witness?? If not yet another ground to challenge it on perhaps..

Options:

- Hope T leaves anyway 11th Dec - a gamble, risky.... do nothing till then...or...
- (I'd suggest..) Issue another, valid, S21 expiring "AFTER 11th January" (I think the wording you need..) and write it off to experience... Mail S21 twice from two different post offices each with **free** certificate of posting.

The deposit is protected & tenant served with "prescribed info"??

PaulF
13-10-2011, 13:56 PM
I issued a section 21 on 11th october giving two months notice to expire on 11th december. rent is due on the 12th of month.

I didn't post it through until 6pm and have now realised this was too late and it would be deemed to be served on the 12th oct.

what should i do now?

thanks in advance!The Notice is deemed served on 13 October as it was after 17:00 hrs on 11th so you have to allow an extra day, and the wording would have to have said that you require possession "after" 11th December as well. I think you will have to wait until an effective date of 11 January 2012 to be able to have the service of a valid notice.

sand pears
13-10-2011, 14:26 PM
I too have served a section 21 by hand in the evening, i never knew that it had to be done before a certain time!

I have looked on other forums now and other people say it should be before 16:30!

I thought a day ran from 00:00 to 23:59!

westminster
13-10-2011, 14:54 PM
i issued a section 21 on 11th october giving two months notice to expire on 11th december. rent is due on the 12th of month.

i didn't post it through until 6pm and have now realised this was too late and it would be deemed to be served on the 12th oct.

If you delivered it by hand at 6pm on 11th October, it would be deemed served on 12th October. If you posted it first class before the last collection on 11th October, it would be deemed served on 13th October.

Even if you had served the notice on 11th October, the earliest possible expiry date would be "after 11th December", not "11th December" or "on 11th December".

You need to serve a new notice; if you would like advice on its expiry date, you need to tell us:

Date the fixed term commenced (dd/mm/yy)?
Length of term and whether an 'end' date is specified?

westminster
13-10-2011, 14:57 PM
I think you will have to wait until an effective date of 11 January 2012 to be able to have the service of a valid notice.
This assumes that the tenancy is currently periodic, and that the rental periods coincide with the tenancy periods. We don't know whether this is the case.

westminster
13-10-2011, 15:05 PM
I too have served a section 21 by hand in the evening, i never knew that it had to be done before a certain time!

I have looked on other forums now and other people say it should be before 16:30!
Too often people leave service till the very last moment, or think they have to give *exactly* two months' notice. It is far less risky not to serve close to a 'deadline' and to allow a bit of breathing room in the notice period, i.e. give a few days more than two months.

apple
13-10-2011, 15:10 PM
i used the template on this website so did get the wording correct.

it is a periodic tenancy running from 12th to 11th of each month. rent due on the 12th. the fixed term ended in july.

i posted through the letterbox with a witness.

i have only just found out that it should be delivered before 16.30 so i was too late.

can i send another one for two month notice starting on 12th november and expiring on 11 January? would rather do this than risk the tenants not moving out on 11th dec and not being able to take them to court due to the time of delivery on the current section 21.

is it ok for your wife/husband to be a witness or should it be a 'friend'?

PaulF
13-10-2011, 16:25 PM
If you delivered it by hand at 6pm on 11th October, it would be deemed served on 12th October.Sorry I disagree as per my post. The 'working day' ends at 5.00 p.m. so service would not be effective until 13th October.

can i send another one for two month notice starting on 12th november and expiring on 11 January? would rather do this than risk the tenants not moving out on 11th dec and not being able to take them to court due to the time of delivery on the current section 21.Yes, I would do that.

westminster
13-10-2011, 16:26 PM
i used the template on this website so did get the wording correct.

it is a periodic tenancy running from 12th to 11th of each month. rent due on the 12th. the fixed term ended in july.
Rental periods do not always coincide with tenancy periods, and a s.21(4)(a) notice must expire at the end of a tenancy period, not a rental period. Please answer the questions I asked in #5.


can i send another one for two month notice starting on 12th november and expiring on 11 January? would rather do this than risk the tenants not moving out on 11th dec and not being able to take them to court due to the time of delivery on the current section 21.

You can serve another s.21 notice, but don't leave it so close to the 11th November 'deadline' (assuming this is the end of a tenancy period), do it now. You don't put a 'start date' on a s.21 notice, you only need to have evidence of date of service.

Note that a s.21 notice is not a notice to quit and does not end the tenancy nor oblige T to vacate. If the tenants wish to end the tenancy/vacate on 11th December, they must serve you with valid notice to quit by 11th November, otherwise they will be liable for rent in lieu of notice.


is it ok for your wife/husband to be a witness or should it be a 'friend'?
It can be anyone. Technically speaking, you don't need a witness at all as an affadavit from you ought to be adequate evidence, however, we generally advise taking a witness to hand delivery as additional evidence or obtaining a free certificate of posting if posting the notice.

apple
13-10-2011, 16:55 PM
sorry westminster

the tenant moved in on 12th february and they signed a 6 month tenancy agreement.

once this ended it became a periodic tenancy from 12th to 11th, paying rent monthly.

westminster
13-10-2011, 17:14 PM
sorry westminster

the tenant moved in on 12th february and they signed a 6 month tenancy agreement.

once this ended it became a periodic tenancy from 12th to 11th, paying rent monthly.
Okay, if the contract says it's a six month fixed term commencing 12th February 2011, and so long as the contract doesn't specify an alternative 'end' date, then the statutory periodic tenancy began on 12th August, with tenancy periods running 12th - 11th of the month. (Sorry to be pendantic but best to be 100% sure.)

If you serve another s.21 before 11th November (and, as I said, don't wait till then, do it at least a week in advance), then the expiry date would be "after 11th January 2012".

westminster
13-10-2011, 17:24 PM
The Notice is deemed served on 13 October as it was after 17:00 hrs on 11th so you have to allow an extra day

If you delivered it by hand at 6pm on 11th October, it would be deemed served on 12th October.

Sorry I disagree as per my post. The 'working day' ends at 5.00 p.m. so service would not be effective until 13th October.
Why do you think the notice would not be deemed served on the next business day after delivery by hand at 6pm on 11th October? Why do you "have to allow an extra day"?

The rules of deemed service in CPR Part 6.26 (http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/procedure-rules/civil/contents/parts/part06.htm#IDAWP2HC) say that if a document is "delivered to or left at the permitted address on a business day before 4.30p.m., [it is deemed served] on that day; or in any other case, on the next business day after that day."

I appreciate that it is arguable as to whether CPR applies beyond the context of a civil claim, so I assume you have an alternative authority for rules of deemed service?

PaulF
13-10-2011, 17:31 PM
Thanks for your input. I was told by specialist solicitors of the deadlines but having read the CPR on this I'm no longer sure.

westminster
13-10-2011, 17:36 PM
I believe CPR on deemed service were amended in 2008; it's possible that whatever these solicitors told you predates this.

Snorkerz
13-10-2011, 18:33 PM
i used the template on this website so did get the wording correct. Sadly, despite various members pointing the issue out to them, the s21 on this site does not include the word 'after' despite it being a requirement for a section 21(4)(a) notice. The legislation states:
that the landlord or, in the case of joint landlords, at least one of them has given to the tenant a notice in writing stating that, after a date specified in the notice, being the last day of a period of the tenancy and not earlier than two months after the date the notice was given, possession of the dwelling-house is required by virtue of this section; and

I would use this one for a fixed term tenancy - 21(1)(b) http://www.letlink.co.uk/GeneralInfo/General_possession/S21_1_B.pdf
or this one for a periodic - s21(4)(a) http://www.letlink.co.uk/GeneralInfo/General_possession/S21_4_A.pdf

Soot2006
15-10-2011, 15:35 PM
Strange question here but have you spoken to the tenant?