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kosmicmisfit
11-10-2011, 13:05 PM
Hi
I served a s21 through the letter box back in early July. Its now 10 wksand they have still not left.

I suppose I have to start the legal process?

Snorkerz
11-10-2011, 13:28 PM
Your s21 was not a notice to quit - it just advised the tenant that after the expiry date you could apply to the courts for permission.

So yes, you need to commence the legal process.

kosmicmisfit
11-10-2011, 13:35 PM
How much will it cost??? or is that a silly question

Snorkerz
11-10-2011, 13:43 PM
£175 to make the claim. £110 extra if you need the bailiffs.
http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/ast_tenants_not_in_breach_of_contract/0-37

Before you start spending money, are you sure the s21 is valid?

When did the last tenancy agreement start?
How long was it for / was there an end date?
When was the s21 served?
What was the exact wording of the expiry date?
Has T paid a deposit?
If so, is it protected / when was it protected?
Is this a licensable HMO property? Do you have a license?

kosmicmisfit
11-10-2011, 15:15 PM
Fair point. Actually the tenant owes me 3 months of rent. I served a s21 before.

Should I serve a s8 notice as well? I suppose s8 would cost more money if I had to go through thelegal channels?

thanks

Paul_f
11-10-2011, 18:32 PM
Serve a S.8 Grounds 8,10 & 11 which should be quicker, as you can instigate court proceedings within 14 days of service and get rent arrears assessed at the same time if you wish. Look on the top of this page and put your mouse over 'content' on the info bar and see the drop down menu as it will give you the repossession options available to you with explanations.

Snorkerz
11-10-2011, 21:27 PM
Serve a S.8 Grounds 8,10 & 11 which should be quicker, as you can instigate court proceedings within 14 days of service and get rent arrears assessed at the same time if you wish. Look on the top of this page and put your mouse over 'content' on the info bar and see the drop down menu as it will give you the repossession options available to you with explanations.

A section 21 should be quicker if already expired. Kosmicmisfit can submit n5b tommorrow and should have a decision within a month and an eviction date by the end of November. If he has to organise bailiffs, lets add 8 weeks to cover the Xmas amnesty - so he should get the property back by the end of January at the latest.

On the other hand, if he uses the s8 route he will not be able to start the court process until the end of this month. The hearing would not be likely before mid December or even into January because of the Xmas break. Lets assume mid December. Judge will give 2-6 weeks to leave and tbh is unlikely to give a eviction date over Xmax/NY. So, if we assume an eviction date of 7 January, plus 6 weeks for bailiffs, that is possession towards the end of February at the earliest - but more likely a few weeks later.

Kosmicmisfit - section 8 does have 2 main advantages. If you do it online it is much cheaper than s21 @ 'just' £99. It also has the opportunity to get a court order for missing rent. To obtain the same with an s21 requires a separate moneyclaim at more cost and time.

westminster
11-10-2011, 23:15 PM
@Kosmicmisfit, please answer Snorkerz' questions in post #4. He asked them for a reason, to find out whether the s.21 notice you served was valid - many people mess up, and it'd be a waste of time/money applying for possession based on a defective notice.




When did the last tenancy agreement start?
How long was it for / was there an end date?
When was the s21 served?
What was the exact wording of the expiry date?
Has T paid a deposit?
If so, is it protected / when was it protected?
Is this a licensable HMO property? Do you have a license?

kosmicmisfit
12-10-2011, 11:22 AM
Tenancy began on 18 Aug 2009 to 16 Aug 2010.
S21 was served on 15 Jul 2011.
Wording is
"I give you notice that, by virtue of section 21 of the Housing Act 1988, I require possession of the dwelling house known as ????
After : 17 September 2011
Or, if the alternative date mentioned below is different, after the alterative date. The alternative date is the first date after this notice was given to you which is:"
Tenant gave deposit and is under TDS. It was protected on 21 Aug 2009 appox.
Its not a HMO.

Hope this gives the full pic

Thanks

westminster
12-10-2011, 11:30 AM
Tenancy began on 18 Aug 2009 to 16 Aug 2010.

Is this a typo or was the term one year less one day? Because if the term did expire on 16th August 2010 and rent is payable monthly, then the notice should have expired "after 16th September 2011".


Or, if the alternative date mentioned below is different, after the alterative date. The alternative date is the first date after this notice was given to you which is:"
This so-called saving clause is quite confusing; I would be concerned that a court might decide the notice was defective because of it (even if the expiry date is correct).

kosmicmisfit
12-10-2011, 12:57 PM
Its not a typo. the term was one year less one day. So is the notice defective?
I am giving them an extra day rather that giving less? So is that a problem?
ta

Snorkerz
12-10-2011, 15:12 PM
Unfortunately, ection 21(4)(a) requires that the notice date is the last day of a tenany period. Your tenancy periods end on the 16th of every month, so the notice is defective - sorry.

You need to re-serve the s21 notice. It would do no harm to also serve a section 8 notice under grounds 8, 10 & 11 as that will take around the same time. There are the advantages I mentioned above - BUT there is the disadvantage that if the tenant gets the rent owed below 2 months worth by the hearing date, ground 8 will fail. You still have the chance of success with grounds 10 & 11 but the judge will then make a decision if the new (lower) missing rent is sufficient to warrant making the tenant homeless. This uncertainty is why you should also issue the s21 so you have it ready to roll if the s8 fails.

kosmicmisfit
12-10-2011, 15:31 PM
Darn!!!!!

If I serve a s8. The notice period is 2 weeks? or is my understanding incorrect.

Snorkerz
12-10-2011, 15:38 PM
Your understandng is correct - but because of the need for a hearing (not usually required for s21) it is usually around the same time from service to bailiffs.
http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/ast_tenants_in_breach_of_contract/0-36

kosmicmisfit
19-10-2011, 21:29 PM
Can someone suggest a good legal person to take over this mess?
How much will it set me back? ideas pleas :(

Snorkerz
20-10-2011, 10:10 AM
A 'legal' person will do it no quicker (possibly slower) than DIY.

Sort yourself out both a section 8 notice and a section 21(4)(a) notice. Your section 21(4)(a) notice needs to expire of "after 16th January 2012" and be served no later than Tue 15th November. I'd try and get it done in the next few days.

Template for section 8: http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/members/download.php?f=Section8Notice.pdf
Notes for section 8: http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/members/download.php?f=NoteServingS8R.pdf
and http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/ast_tenants_in_breach_of_contract/0-36

Template for section 21(4)(a): http://www.letlink.co.uk/GeneralInfo/General_possession/S21_4_A.pdf
(http://www.letlink.co.uk/GeneralInfo/General_possession/S21_4_A.pdf)Notes for section 21: http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/members/download.php?f=servingS21.pdf
and http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/ast_tenants_not_in_breach_of_contract/0-37

Landlordzone links will require you to re-register as it is a different membership list.

You will need to obtain proof of service of your section 21 notice. You can take a witness and obtain a statement from them, but the most straightforward way is to send 2 copies by first class post from different post offices - obtaining a free certificate of posting. The courts will accept this as proof of service 2 working days later. Do not use 'Special Delivery' or 'Recorded Delivery' as the tenant can refuse to accept these.

kosmicmisfit
20-10-2011, 12:10 PM
Snorkerz you have been immensely helpful.

If I go on s8 route I guess i need to appoint a legal person?

Snorkerz
20-10-2011, 13:06 PM
No, it is all DIY able.

Read all the stuff in the links for section 8.
Once the s8 is expired (after a fortnight) you can either do it online for £100 or on paper (forms n5 & n119) for £175. I haven't used the online version, but I believe you get given a court date as soon as you pay the fees!

You can get a company to handle the whole lot for you - there are several advertised on this site - but I can't see the point in paying someone £1000 plus VAT for something you can do yourself with free help from this forum.

kosmicmisfit
21-10-2011, 10:57 AM
That is comforting (cost wise) but I will have to represent myself at the s8 hearing. That is worrying! It is one of the reasons for getting a legal person involved.

I would just with that they (Ts ) would pay up and leave!! alas if things were that simple.

thesaint
21-10-2011, 11:38 AM
Beware that the tenant can drag on a Sec 8 for months if they so choose.
By all means serve a Sec 8, but serve a valid Sec 21 too.

Snorkerz
21-10-2011, 14:42 PM
Beware that the tenant can drag on a Sec 8 for months if they so choose.
By all means serve a Sec 8, but serve a valid Sec 21 too.This is true, but it is also possible that once you commence proceedings then your local council will start taking the tenants homelessness claim seriously (if they are considered in need of help) and may be rehoused before the hearing.

Essentially, if you go to court for section 8, you will have to provide the judge with a rent statement and you will have to answer some straight forward questions to clarify any issues the judge may have. It is possible to hire a solicitor to represent you in court, but I wouldn't use them for anything up to that point.

kosmicmisfit
06-11-2011, 15:11 PM
Update.
I have delivered the notices. The tenant confirm their recipt by way of txt msg. Will it hold in court?

Also since I am not getting rent. Ie no rental income. How does this impact wrt to tax returns. Or should I post in a different thread?

regards

kosmicmisfit
06-11-2011, 15:13 PM
My tenants are saving so they can move out at my expense!

When does the council step in and give them housing. They are both working so would they be eligible?

Snorkerz
06-11-2011, 15:44 PM
Council will start to take your tenants claim seriously once you have filed the n5b claim form. I have no idea if they are eligible, but I would think not if they both have 'proper' jobs - but it depends on many things.

Still, if they have jobs, at least it will be worth suing them for missing rent.

I believe you are taxed on 'income' rather than the amount you are contracted to recieve, so I would guess no rent = no tax. You may want to verify that in the 'tax' forum.

Why did you not obtain proof of service as per post #16? When you submit form n5b you have to include proof of service. Obviously a print off of the text (if you can do that with your phone) will prove that it was served, but not when. I guess if the text was sent on or before the last possible date for service, it may be accepted. I'd include an n215 as a backup http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/members/download.php?f=n215_e Example Service Statement.pdf.

theartfullodger
06-11-2011, 16:28 PM
If evicted for rent arrears (s8) then they will be found "intentionally homeless "(ie their fault) and council probably won't rehouse them (may if children or vulnerable) . If evicted under s21 (not their fault) Council may rehouse.

I think HMRC rules are you declare rent you should get, but put down missing rent as bad debt in expenses : ask in tax sections. If you eventually recover rent arrears this income should be declared.

kosmicmisfit
02-05-2012, 09:03 AM
Hi
The court hearing is on 8th.

My tenant called yesterday out of the blue saying can we settle out of court. Given that they owe 8 months rent what type of reference I would give them.

I want them out and if possible before the hearing. I am prepared to give areference. Just not sure what it should say. I do not wish to be dishonest yet want the tenants out. What sort of phrasing or wording should I use?

Thoughts, please

thesaint
02-05-2012, 09:13 AM
Hi
The court hearing is on 8th.

My tenant called yesterday out of the blue saying can we settle out of court. Given that they owe 8 months rent what type of reference I would give them.

I want them out and if possible before the hearing. I am prepared to give areference. Just not sure what it should say. I do not wish to be dishonest yet want the tenants out. What sort of phrasing or wording should I use?

Thoughts, please

I would not settle out of court with these despicable tenants.
Go to court, get a judgement, and hope they end up under a railway arch.

You will have possession in a few weeks anyway.

kosmicmisfit
02-05-2012, 10:02 AM
I want them out but will still get a CCJ to try and get the rent due to me. I am not letting them off the hook.
My concern is that if they pleade to the judge for extra time and get say the max 6 weeks. After that they do not vacate then I have to get balifs (another 4 weeks or more). I am looking at upto 10 more weeks of this nonsense before they are out.

islandgirl
02-05-2012, 10:08 AM
I do not think they will move by the 8th so go to court! They will promise you anything and everything at this stage and not keep any of the promises and you are back to square one. Get your posession order. Then negotiate on how much you will let them off their debt if they go immediately and you do not have to wait for baliffs.

thesaint
02-05-2012, 10:47 AM
It's unlikely they will turn up at court, so I think the judge will give them 14 days if you show much hardship this is causing you.

I know it's easy for me to say, but I would make their life a living hell.
If you give them what they want, you will not see a penny. Of that I am sure.

Moderator2
02-05-2012, 13:01 PM
Two related threads merged

kosmicmisfit
04-05-2012, 10:25 AM
How do i justify hardship. What sort of proof can i take. The tenants have gone quite!

Snorkerz
04-05-2012, 10:37 AM
so I think the judge will give them 14 daysOr possibly less. And if the local bailiffs are going to take too long, a high court enforcement officer should be able to remove them within a couple of weeks of the possession date - for a fee!

kosmicmisfit
04-05-2012, 10:46 AM
What can i do to persuad the judge get them out sooner? They will owe 9 months rent.

thesaint
04-05-2012, 14:08 PM
What can i do to persuad the judge get them out sooner? They will owe 9 months rent.

Sooner than what?

kosmicmisfit
04-05-2012, 17:59 PM
Sooner than what?

sorry I should have said, how do I ensure they get out asap.

theartfullodger
04-05-2012, 18:10 PM
Bribe them - but in such a way that it cannot be seen as harassment..

Cheers!

Snorkerz
04-05-2012, 18:56 PM
Explain to the judge that you have given the tenants multiple opportunities to resolve the situation and given as much lee-way as you can. Tell him that you are now £X in debt due to non payment of rent and you need the property back as soon as possible so you can prepare it for rent-paying tenants and try and get yourself out of the debt the tenants have caused. Then ask if possession could be granted at the earliest opportunity.

kosmicmisfit
07-05-2012, 16:21 PM
My hearing is tomorrow. A bit nervous.

Is there a checklist of what I should take with me to the hearing?

kosmicmisfit
07-05-2012, 16:37 PM
Hi
Also My claim for arrears is for more than £5000. Can a county court judge pass judgement? Or is there something some other court?

Snorkerz
07-05-2012, 19:15 PM
Hi, take everything including an up to date rent statement.

Don't worry arount the £5k - that is the cash limit for the 'small claims track' but a possession claim isn't allocated to a specific track.

kosmicmisfit
08-05-2012, 09:29 AM
Everyone says take everything but not no one specifies!!

thanks for the comforting words

Mrs Mug
08-05-2012, 11:05 AM
The links below advises what documents to take for a Section 8 and a Section 21 hearing.

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?10857-Court-Hearing-in-2-Days

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?45780-Off-to-County-Court-on-Monday-a-couple-of-quick-questions

kosmicmisfit
09-05-2012, 09:01 AM
Yeah! The judge gave mandatory 14days to vacate. He also gave a money judgement.

This leads to more questions. Main one is who applies for the instalment order and how soon canit materialise. As the tenants still want me to give a satisfactory reference and don't want tobe homeless.

Can I in exchange for a honest reference can I ask for the forwarding address, address of theirplace of work ?

Brb
09-05-2012, 13:43 PM
I really don't know how these Ts get away with asking for a decent reference.

What a cheek!