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medlock
11-10-2011, 07:48 AM
Hi all
I doing an S21 for a tenant
He moved in on the 1st June 2011
Whats the earliest date the S21 should expire?
Thanks

lynneinjapan
11-10-2011, 09:55 AM
OK, I'm a relative novice but I think I have a pretty good understanding of this area (and if I get it wrong then I'm sure someone will correct me), so here goes:

Firstly, a S21 doesn't expire unless you get the tenant to start a new tenancy agreement after the initial AST. If you just let the tenancy carry on and become a statutory periodic tenancy then the S21 remains valid and can be enforced whenever you like (with appropriate notice). I've been advised that you should always serve a S21 2-3 months before the end of an AST, just to cover your own back, even if you don't actually want the tenant to leave. (I haven't followed this advice myself yet, largely because I want my tenants, who are lovely, to stay for as long as possible, and I'm a little anxious that they might be offended by the serving of a S21.)

Anyway, assuming that it's a 6-month AST and that the rent is due on the 1st of the month, the original term would end on 30th Nov/1st Dec (depending on whether the tenancy started at midnight or noon on the 1st). However, you have to serve the S21 at least two months prior to that date so you've missed the deadline and hence cannot end the tenancy until the next rent payment falls due, i.e. 31st Dec/1st Jan. In order to do that, you need to make sure that the notice is served by 31st Oct at the latest.

MrJohnnyB
11-10-2011, 10:43 AM
OK, I'm a relative novice but I think I have a pretty good understanding of this area (and if I get it wrong then I'm sure someone will correct me), so here goes:

Firstly, a S21 doesn't expire unless you get the tenant to start a new tenancy agreement after the initial AST. If you just let the tenancy carry on and become a statutory periodic tenancy then the S21 remains valid and can be enforced whenever you like (with appropriate notice). I've been advised that you should always serve a S21 2-3 months before the end of an AST, just to cover your own back, even if you don't actually want the tenant to leave. (I haven't followed this advice myself yet, largely because I want my tenants, who are lovely, to stay for as long as possible, and I'm a little anxious that they might be offended by the serving of a S21.)

Anyway, assuming that it's a 6-month AST and that the rent is due on the 1st of the month, the original term would end on 30th Nov/1st Dec (depending on whether the tenancy started at midnight or noon on the 1st). However, you have to serve the S21 at least two months prior to that date so you've missed the deadline and hence cannot end the tenancy until the next rent payment falls due, i.e. 31st Dec/1st Jan. In order to do that, you need to make sure that the notice is served by 31st Oct at the latest.

Not exactly. I think in the case of a section 21, (1)(b) only 2 months notice needs to be given - I cannot see any reference to the end of a period as is the case with a Section 21 (4)(a) - the notice simply needs to expire giving at least 2 months notice.

westminster
11-10-2011, 11:57 AM
I doing an S21 for a tenant
He moved in on the 1st June 2011
Whats the earliest date the S21 should expire?

It depends on when the fixed term expires. And if the fixed term has already expired we also need to know the frequency with which rent is payable.

westminster
11-10-2011, 12:11 PM
Anyway, assuming that it's a 6-month AST and that the rent is due on the 1st of the month, the original term would end on 30th Nov/1st Dec (depending on whether the tenancy started at midnight or noon on the 1st).
It would be highly inadvisable for any landlord to create a fixed term commencing at noon.


However, you have to serve the S21 at least two months prior to that date so you've missed the deadline and hence cannot end the tenancy until the next rent payment falls due, i.e. 31st Dec/1st Jan.
No.

If a s.21 notice is served during the fixed term, it need only give T at least two months, and cannot expire before the end of the fixed term. It does not have to expire at the end of a tenancy period (N.B. not the same as a rental period); this only applies to s.21 notices served during a periodic tenancy. Assuming the fixed term does expire on 30th November, then if LL served notice today, 11th October, the earliest the notice could expire would be "after 11th December 2011".

Nor does the s.21 notice "end the tenancy" at notice expiry. It merely entitles the LL to apply for possession after notice expiry.

See section 21 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/21
and section 5(2) - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/5

medlock
11-10-2011, 12:36 PM
If i expire the s21 2 months and 1 day from today, would this give 2 months notice? (expiration 12th Dec 2010)

Or because the tenancy starts on the 1st June, would i have to give 2 full calender months notice?

Thereby meaning expiration would be the 2nd January 2012

westminster
11-10-2011, 13:51 PM
If i expire the s21 2 months and 1 day from today, would this give 2 months notice? (expiration 12th Dec 2010)

Or because the tenancy starts on the 1st June, would i have to give 2 full calender months notice?

Thereby meaning expiration would be the 2nd January 2012

See post #4.

When does the fixed term expire?

Snorkerz
11-10-2011, 14:03 PM
If i expire the s21 2 months and 1 day from today, would this give 2 months notice? (expiration 12th Dec 2010)

Or because the tenancy starts on the 1st June, would i have to give 2 full calender months notice?

Thereby meaning expiration would be the 2nd January 2012

This depends on the date of service. If the date of service is within the fixed term then the expiry date is the later of:
- 2 months after the day of service
- last day of the fixed term

If the date of service is after the end of the fixed term, then you must give a minimum of 2 months notice and the 'expiry date' must be the last day of a tenancy period.

medlock
12-10-2011, 08:04 AM
So going back to my post

Its a 6 month contract, expiring the 1st Dec 2010

So giving 2 months notice is fine right? I'm sure i read on here somewhere that we have to give 2 calender months

Snorkerz
12-10-2011, 09:00 AM
So going back to my post

Its a 6 month contract, expiring the 1st Dec 2010

So giving 2 months notice is fine right? I'm sure i read on here somewhere that we have to give 2 calender monthsIf tenant moved in 1 June for 6 months, expiry would be 30 Nov. Does the agreement specifically say that the end date is 1st December?

Either way, a section 21(1)(b) notice served before 4:30 today would expire "after 13th December 2011".

If served after 4:30 it counts as the following day for service
You don't count the day of service in the 2 months
The period end does not matter for a s21(1)(b).

a court shall make an order for possession of the dwelling-house if it is satisfied— . . . (b)the landlord or, in the case of joint landlords, at least one of them has given to the tenant not less than two months’ notice in writing stating that he requires possession of the dwelling-house.

westminster
12-10-2011, 11:20 AM
So going back to my post

Its a 6 month contract, expiring the 1st Dec 2010

So giving 2 months notice is fine right? I'm sure i read on here somewhere that we have to give 2 calender months

A s.21(1)(b) notice must give at least two calendar months, as from the date of deemed service.

If you deliver by hand on a business day before 4.30pm, the notice is deemed served that day.
If delivered after 4.30pm or at the weekend, the notice is deemed served on the next business day.
If the notice is posted first class, the notice is deemed served two business days later.
(A business day is Mon-Fri, excluding Bank Holidays)

So, work out when the notice will be deemed served, and add (at least) two months from that date; e.g. if deemed served on 17th October, then the earliest expiry would be "after 17th December 2011".

Don't write a date of service on the notice, just get evidence of service (take a witness if delivering by hand, or get a free certificate of posting).

medlock
12-10-2011, 11:54 AM
Ok, ive just done it

I've allowed a few extra days for postage

Expires after the 15th Dec 2011