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suebabsthenoo
01-10-2011, 09:33 AM
Hi Chaps and Chapettes,
My tenant has asked me if she can get a cat.....can I say ABSOLUTELY that the house will have to be sprayed at her expense when she moves .Giving her permission in writing and stating that fact with her signature too,should not cause any probs at the end,also mentioning scratching damage etc.?????
Sue

Ericthelobster
01-10-2011, 09:41 AM
can I say ABSOLUTELY that the house will have to be sprayed at her expense when she moves .Giving her permission in writing and stating that fact with her signature too,should not cause any probs at the end,also mentioning scratching damage etc.?Can't see why not. Damage as such will already be covered by the existing agreement/inventory (won't it??!) but you could cover yourself even more I suppose by getting her to sign something to the effect that currently there's no animal-related damage in the house (if that's the case).

You'll also want to ensure you are given written proof that the spraying has actually been done, if she organises it - but I'd prefer to get it done personally and bill her I think.

Snorkerz
01-10-2011, 09:56 AM
Pets can leave deposits, so I'd insist on a 'pet deposit' myself in addition to the existing deposit. Say £100.

That would need to be protected, but you could have in your agreement that the cost of pet-related-cleaning will be taken from the deposit - and of cours the tenants signature to agree. This way, YOU get to supervise the cleaning as per Ericthelobsters suggestion but without hassling the tenant for payment on departure, which may be difficult to get.

mind the gap
01-10-2011, 21:21 PM
Chapettes........................??????:=-:

45002
01-10-2011, 23:00 PM
Pets can leave deposits, so I'd insist on a 'pet deposit' myself in addition to the existing deposit. Say £100.

That would need to be protected, but you could have in your agreement that the cost of pet-related-cleaning will be taken from the deposit - and of cours the tenants signature to agree. This way, YOU get to supervise the cleaning as per Ericthelobsters suggestion but without hassling the tenant for payment on departure, which may be difficult to get.


My moggie does that every now again to remind me,who's Boss :8):

How do you register that type of deposit with TDS !

Snorkerz
01-10-2011, 23:20 PM
Sadly, the 2004 act prohibits any kind of deposit other than £££s

Your grandfathers antique watch - no good
Your shares in BP - no good
Your first born child - no good

mariner
02-10-2011, 02:09 AM
OP require T to make her request in writing, signed and dated.
Reply in kind, stating your approval is conditional on a deposit top up of £x to overall max dep allowed f 2 months rent or you will add prof pet cleaning and pet-related damage eg scratching to Ts liabilities on departure. You can also limit type, number & breed of pet and they should not cause a nuisance to neighbours eg barking at all hours. Then state her request & your reply will be held by you as an addendum to orig AST.
The other thing dogs cats etc can leave behind are fleas, so fumigation is another likely cost. Most Ts don't ask about pets, so a comprehensive pets clause should be added to any AST eg T is not authorised to keep any domestic animal unless by written request. LLs permission may be subject to <conditions>

ram
02-10-2011, 08:50 AM
You can also say, No pets.

I assume the AST says no pets, therefore, if so, write back and say, sorry
you signed on the condition of no pets, so no pets it is.

Your own lease will say also, no pets ( probably ) and you can say that too.
As you can see, the time, inconvenience and cost for cleaning and fumigating
is a large hassle for you. Thats why people state "no pets".

YOU may have to ask your freeholder if you are allowed to have a pet,
AND if you sub-tenant can have a pet, and not untill such time as you are
granted permission, then you cannot grant you sub-tenant permission.

I rented a flat once, after I had previously seen men in white overalls and masks
clearing the place, sprayed everywhere, but it still did not get rid of all the pests.

So think hard before you say pets are allowed.

R.a.M.

midlandslandlord
02-10-2011, 09:17 AM
Mariner has suggested treating it as an addendum tied firmly into the rental agreement as part of the contract, which binds both parties.

An alternative is to use a 'permission letter', which allows you more flexibility. Permission can simply be withdrawn, rather than having to untangle a contract.

I have a general clause of the "no pets except by landlord permission' type in my Agreements, as per normal practice.

Then I do a permission letter and get a signed/dated copy as proof of receipt.

The permission letter is also less admin, but it's very much horses for courses.

Which one I would use would depend on my relationship with T, the type of property, the type (and no.) of dogs, and perhaps the attitude of neighbours.

ML

Snorkerz
02-10-2011, 10:26 AM
is conditional on a deposit top up of £x to overall max dep allowed f 2 months rent2 month max deposit does not apply to most tenancies http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?40470-First-time-LL-issuing-a-12-month-tenancy-via-EA-LA-with-T-paying-12-mnths-upfront&p=324591#post324591


You can also say, No pets.Not quite. I totally accept that OFT guidance is not 'law' they are of the opinion that a blanket 'no pets' rule would be covered by UTCCR. http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft356.pdf (page 68)

As UTCCR is a 'European law', I believe that decisions made in other EU states are binding upon our judges. If this is right, there was a case in Spain where such a blanket ban was considered unfair as it would have prevented goldfish http://www.letlink.co.uk/LUJ/lujdatastore/pdfComplete/2002April.pdf (page 30)

bellysaysumsh
02-10-2011, 13:26 PM
My understanding is that any clause stipulating no pets is unenforceable? I have a dog and have always been honest before renting a property so that it was allowed in my tenancy agreement. Is it correct, though, that to remain silent and have a pet anyway, so long as it doesn't create a nuisance to neighbours and doesn't leave behind any damage, there's no recourse?

midlandslandlord
02-10-2011, 13:31 PM
My understanding is that any clause stipulating no pets is unenforceable? I have a dog and have always been honest before renting a property so that it was allowed in my tenancy agreement. Is it correct, though, that to remain silent and have a pet anyway, so long as it doesn't create a nuisance to neighbours and doesn't leave behind any damage, there's no recourse?

That's an interesting one.

Would the Courts look at the dog, mog or frog, or at the lies told to the landlord about the dog, mog or frog?

ML

bellysaysumsh
02-10-2011, 13:41 PM
My understanding is that any clause stipulating no pets is unenforceable? I have a dog and have always been honest before renting a property so that it was allowed in my tenancy agreement. Is it correct, though, that to remain silent and have a pet anyway, so long as it doesn't create a nuisance to neighbours and doesn't leave behind any damage, there's no recourse?

It's a serious question, and, as a new landlord but also renter myself, I'm interested for various reasons. As housing prices price many people out of the market and those people must subsequently rent instead, the 'no pets' policy is creating a problem for animal shelters as people sometimes find themselves in a situation where they have no alternative but to give their pet away. I was lucky to find something, but I can imagine there are lots out there who aren't.

Snorkerz
02-10-2011, 18:13 PM
I would be inclined to think that not declaring a pet when they are specified as 'not allowed' could lead to an eviction claim under section 8 (ground 17). Admittedly, such a claim could be rather weak unless we are talking about dangerous dogs or alligators. Further to my post #10, even goldfish can be a problem: http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/85369/goldfish-bowl-sparks-flintshire-house-blaze.aspx

45002
02-10-2011, 20:27 PM
I even goldfish can be a problem: http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/85369/goldfish-bowl-sparks-flintshire-house-blaze.aspx

And how many fires have been caused by a Gold fish bowl in the UK !

Snorkerz
02-10-2011, 20:43 PM
And how many fires have been caused by a Gold fish bowl in the UK !I had thought my reference to alligators would have put the goldfish link in context.

45002
02-10-2011, 22:39 PM
I'm sure this will all end in a Purrfect solution :8):

theartfullodger
12-11-2011, 14:20 PM
...........

Not quite. I totally accept that OFT guidance is not 'law' they are of the opinion that a blanket 'no pets' rule would be covered by UTCCR. http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft356.pdf (page 68)

As UTCCR is a 'European law', I believe that decisions made in other EU states are binding upon our judges. If this is right, there was a case in Spain where such a blanket ban was considered unfair as it would have prevented goldfish http://www.letlink.co.uk/LUJ/lujdatastore/pdfComplete/2002April.pdf (page 30)

Became aware yesterday (oddly from a Scottish website..) of an English court case confirming UTCCR applies to LL/T -

London Borough of Newham v Khatun [2004]

see..
http://www.letlink.co.uk/case-law/unfair-terms/london-borough-of-newham-v-khatun-2004.html



HELD:
The High Court decided that the UTCCR 1999 do apply to tenancy agreements and other contracts relating to a transfer of an interest in land.
The council was considered a supplier and the tenant a consumer.

The Court of Appeal confirmed that tenants in both the private and public sectors are protected by the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999.
The UTCCR 1999 apply to contracts relating to land (including tenancy agreements), and do cover councils.



Assume you guys already knew about it..

So think it might be worth waving that case as well as OFT356 at agents, Landlords and Judges if and when required...

Cheers!

Artful