Environmental Health Officer's demands re works

[fitzy]

Just moved out of my house into a new one and rented the origional out. Neighbours of that property being a pain and complained to the EHO on the very first day. It's a large three bedroom house and I have rented it to a mother and daughter, the daughters boyfriend and two other friends of theirs. Very happy with them, they seem very pleasant and the house is spotless.

Question is:

The EHO said that I need to do alot of work to the property eg. self closing fire doors, hard wired smoke detectors, hard wired heat detectors, fire blankets and fire extinguishers. He says that I need to do this as the group is not a family and therefore is a HMO. All of the individuals are on the same AST agreement.

I am more than wiling to carry out the work if it is required by law, but it seems to me that the EHO might be wrong as I thought HMO's were if more than six people occupied the same building or that they were all on separate agreements.

Any help greatly appriciated

Cheers

[cnrsoper]

It would depend on your local council, where abouts is the property?

you do however have a HMO, as the household is composed of more than two family groups.

[shamstar]

keep mother,daughter and boyfriend and ask others to leave, explaining that if they stay the rent will go through the roof to cover all the work that will be needed and yes i am sure it will run into thousands! Of course if the friends are related to the mother and daughter they might be classed as 1 family and thus no probs. Otherwise .....

Hard wired fire alarm, fire resistant ceilings and fire proof doors, emergency lighting, registration fee etc etc

[red40]

A House in Multiple Occupation (HMO) is defined in Section 345 of the Housing Act 1985 (as amended) as ‘a house (or flat) occupied by persons who do not form a single household’.

A contract signed by all the tenants (a joint tenancy) and may not be an HMO because all tenants are occupying all of the property and have equal responsibility. To class as an HMO, the dwelling would need to have been built or adapted to enable occupants to live as separate households.

A group of occupants who share a house may, alternatively, have a joint tenancy. They would form a single household and each tenant would be entitled to occupy the whole of the dwelling. the agreement would be between the landlord and tenants as a group, e.g. one contract signed by each tenant.

A household is normally regarded to be a person, or group of people, who live as a family group, sharing domestic duties and paying a single rent.

So on the basis of what fitzy has said I would say that, yes, the EHO has got it wrong. I am sure Council tax would be able to clarify the situation as they should have it down as a single occupancy house.

Dont know where you got the six persons from fitzy but the above definition should help you ;) it can be a HMO with 2 persons, seperate households.

[fitzy]

Thanks very much, was thinking back to when I rented my first house (as a tenant). We were a group of individuals who got together soley for the purpose of renting a house. No fire doors or extinguishers there. I am based in Lincolnshire now not London so I suppose things could be different. I will contact the council tax office to find out.

Thanks again

[Dan]

My local council (Reading) were very helpful on this issue. One of my tenants invited the EHOs in and they contacted me about the property being a HMO. It was news to me as I'd never heard of HMOs at this stage. Reading Housing department sent me a load of pamphlets about being a landlord. It was very organised - Landlord's Information Pack.

Anyway, I recently had a group of four students who wanted to rent the house and I was sure that they would qualify it as a HMO as they weren't related. I telephoned the council and they said it was not a HMO if there was one agreement and the individual rooms did not have locks on them.

If I were you, I'd telephone the council or go and see them to get some advice. Just don't be adverserial with them

[jghomer]

I received a letter from the local EH dept today stating that are inspecting one of my rented properties on monday.

Surprised at this i called the tenant, who told me that she has a very drafty front door (not reported to me) and wanted the house checking!!

Anyone have experience of these visits? It's my first. How awkward & picky can they be, and what are their powers?

I'm also thinking i don't want a tenant like this in my property to be honest, and will probably S21 her very soon. Will there be any problem with this?

[Esio Trot]

For a tenant to involve EH at this early stage without contact with you, means that there is no reciprocity of relationship.

I would not delay issuing a s21. I would do it straight away.

This is not a tenant I would want.

[porridge]

I received a letter from the local EH dept today stating that are inspecting one of my rented properties on monday.

Surprised at this i called the tenant, who told me that she has a very drafty front door (not reported to me) and wanted the house checking!!

Anyone have experience of these visits? It's my first. How awkward & picky can they be, and what are their powers?

I'm also thinking i don't want a tenant like this in my property to be honest, and will probably S21 her very soon. Will there be any problem with this?


I had exactly the same with me, agree with esio, serve S21 now !

As for EH, THEY CAN BE A NIGHTMARE, tenant walks around with them and fills their head with nonsense, I had a priority 1 fault against the property, had to have a periodic inspection to BS 7671 standard, cannot understand why, needless to say I complied and the electrics were found to be in excellent order, but it cost me £250 for the pleasure.

They will find the silliest faults !!!!!!!!!!

[jghomer]

Thanks Chaps.

Helpful comments as always :-)

[porridge]

Thanks Chaps.

Helpful comments as always :-)


Best advice I can give is that you should work with the EH Dept, whilst they can enforce improvements to be made, they will work with you on a structured timetable.

[Esio Trot]

Best advice I can give is that you should work with the EH Dept, whilst they can enforce improvements to be made, they will work with you on a structured timetable.

And if it's to involve any structural/building/plastering type work, you'll probably get them to agree that this is better done when the the place is empty. i.e. after you have evicted this tenant ;)

[Paragon]

ESIO - Since we still don't have a Thank You button, I hearby thank you for your latest post.

[jghomer]

Well the EH man inspected the house today & said it's one of the nicest he's seen :-)

Their complaint about a slightly drafty front door is valid, but he can't force the issue with me as it only really requires a bit of draft excluder.

I would happily have done this for them if they'd not gone to this extreme!

Anyway, it ended well :-)

[Paragon]

Well the EH man inspected the house today & said it's one of the nicest he's seen :-)

Their complaint about a slightly drafty front door is valid, but he can't force the issue with me as it only really requires a bit of draft excluder.

I would happily have done this for them if they'd not gone to this extreme!

Anyway, it ended well :-)

I would have thought draft excluder is down to the tenant going to B&Q and sticking it up themselves.

[jeffrey]

I would have thought draft excluder is down to the tenant going to B&Q and sticking it up themselves.

Oo, er, missus. That avoids a draught from your rear elevation, at least, and stops anyone coming in up your back entry [see "Viz" for more].

[Paragon]

Oo, er, missus. That avoids a draught from your rear elevation, at least, and stops anyone coming in up your back entry [see "Viz" for more].


And the teletubby says Uh Oh!

[attilathelandlord]

I would have thought draft excluder is down to the tenant going to B&Q and sticking it up themselves.

My thoughts exactly Paragon, but probably not in the way you meant!

[Paragon]

LOL - Couldn't have written that any better if I had thought about it for a week. Well spotted guys. There is too much humour on this board, must get more serious.

[sjcollett]

Hi, hope somebody may be able to help? About 2 years ago I called the council for advice about turning a house into a HMO. In the end I did not do a HMO but today out of the blue they have called me and asked to visit. I was rather taken aback. He gave me the impression he had been going through records and it was a case of closing them down as the original person I had spoken to had now retired. My question is - can EH just decide to visit, do they have to have a reason?, do I have to let them in? It is a private house which I have rented out and the tenants are very good and tell if there are any probs. I don't have anything to hide, it just kind of makes me wonder what a visit may entail as I have never been visited before. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks. Sam

[Bel]

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=12099

You may find this thread of help/interest

[Bel]

Also; how many tenants do you have in your property? If more than 2 are they sharers or a family?

[sjcollett]

Thanks that was very interesting and useful...although the property is not a HMO! I have informed the EH of this and as yet I have not heard back. From the thread you sent it would appear that they have to tell me the reason for the visit as right now I am lost as to what they want and why! The property is now 4 individual self contained flats with 1-2 people per flat as normal and is council tax banded as such. I told them this but they said that was a different dept. I didn't want to sound obstructive but I did want to know why they wanted access as these are private individual flats and I have to protect my tenants right to privacy!

[Bel]

I take it that the conversion was all "above board" with buildings regs approval etc? If the conversion is sub-standard then it could be a HMO.

I think you are well within your rights to ask the purpose of the visit and by what authority; and do they expect to see the inside of each flat for which you will need to get permission from each tenant to allow.

To be honest, you must be a busy person, as are your tenants, and you needent be bothered to act on their request unless there is a need to.

Please post back what happens.

I know that some councils are assessing HMO's to see if there are ones that should be having licences but have not applied. They start with the most obvious ones and then work down the list to the less obvious ones. I hope you have a fire risk assessment and suitable precautions.

[Jayboyd]

We have lived at this rented property for 4 months.

Even though we made a list of problems from day 1 nothing has been done to fix the mould/damp (despite a letter from doc saying she suspects that is causing my 5 month old daughters cough/illness), leaking roof onto electrics, padlocks on windows without keys, no gas safety certificate and more.

I called environmental health 2 weeks ago and was told I should get a call back that afternoon. 3 days later I called back, and was told it can take a few days. 1 week later still I called back and was told it could take a couple more days....it's now over 2 weeks since I called and despite explaining that the doctor has said the mould/damp is causing my daughter to be ill (and not able to open the padlocked windows for ventillation) they haven't called.

My question is how long do these things usually take? I went to environmetal health hoping to complain about my landlord/agent but now I want to call someone to complain about environmental health!

[Borat]

After a formal complaint to the council the Local Government Ombudsman. info at www.lgo.org.uk.

You can take civil action against disrepair but this isn't an easy process so best to see a solicitor if you can get legal aid.

[caroline7758]

You could try contacting your local councillor- they might be able to get things moving.

[Moderator1]

This thread consolidates several others asking the same basic question.