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Paul_f
15-05-2005, 20:05 PM
It's a few months since I've put a few teasers on the forum so it's about time we had a few more! No prizes but please have a go. P Pilcher did very well last time!


Tenant signs AST with landlord to move in 5 days hence, pays deposit and fails to turn up on the appointed day. Landlord has another interested tenant and lets the property to him 10 days later. Original tenant turns up on day 12 and states he has a legal tenancy - does he?
Landlord gives tenant 2 months notice on periodic AST, and tenant moves out 7 days later saying he doesn't need to pay anymore rent afterwards. Is he entitled to do this?
Tenant reports timber fence has fallen down and the landlord has failed to repair this. What if any, are the tenant's rights?
A group of 6 students rent a property and the first three named on the tenancy agreement fall out with the others and decide to move out. From whom can you legally demand either the rent or any arrears?
It's winter and icy. You are about to show prospective tenants round a property and there is sheet ice in the driveway. As the owners are away you use the shovel in the boot of your car and clear it away so that is is safer. One of the people looking round slips on the driveway and breaks a leg. Who's liable?
You as agent or landlord deduct monies from the tenant's deposit for cleaning of the property on the tenant's vacation. You add an administration charge of £25 plus VAT, and tell the tenant about this charge before you instruct the cleaner. Are you entitled to deduct these amounts from the deposit?
You have a guarantor's written agreement to "pay the rent" on behalf of the tenant should they default. If this is all that it says, how long do you think the guarantor might be liable, and would it extend to any dilapidations too?
The serving of a Section 21 Notice is the only way you are guaranteed to regain possession of a property on an Assured Shorthold Tenancy? True or False?

MrWoof
15-05-2005, 20:35 PM
1. I thought a tenancy agreement took effect on signing so a predated one would be illegal, if this is so, the original tenant has no rights.
2. Yes
3. If the landlord will not repair the fence (assuming it belongs to the property) then the tenant can, after giving the LL notice, arrange for the repair and charge the LL for the cost.
4. I,m guessing but the tenancy agreement should make all tenants jointly and severally liable so those who are left are responsible for the whole rent.
5. Once you take responsibility for clearing the ice, you have taken responsibility for their safety and are liable for it, just as you are at home if you clear your own drive imperfectly.
6. I would have thought not unless this was specified in the original tenancy agreement.
7. I would have thought the guarantor is responsible for the rent until the tenant leaves, not dilapidations though.
8. False, Section 8, (was the question number a clue?), various reasons, 2 months plus in arrears, illegal use of the property, causing a nuisance and probably more. I don't claim exhaustive knowledge.
9. Do I just need the parachute or do I need the reserve as well?:)

Editor
15-05-2005, 20:36 PM
A free copy of "Renting Out Your Property for Dummies" http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764570161/landlordzone-21/202-8184712-9957441 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764570161/landlord
zone-21/202-8184712-9957441)
to the first member to get them all right - Paul will be the judge!
Editor

zoe
16-05-2005, 14:33 PM
1. yes
2. yes ( I didn;t think so but we had this discussion recently on here)
3. tenant should request that the LL fix it is writting and give him a reasonable time period, after which he should be able to get some quotes and use the cheapest to repair the fence and then charge the LL.
4. Lots m ore information needed
5. agent
6. nope
7. 6 years and no.
8. false

Jennifer_M
16-05-2005, 15:21 PM
1. A tenancy is only effective in possession so no he doesn't have a tenancy
2. It seems he can do that
3. I guess it depends on the extent of the damage as a tenant is responsible for minor repairs. But if the whole fence is falling apart, causing problems, the tenant should contact the landlord in writing giving him a resonable delay to get it fixed. After that he can get quotes and get it fixed by a professional at the LL's cost. (Although I do feel there is a trick in this question)
4. The first three are still responsible for the rent until the end of the agreement unless agreed otherwise with the LL. In any way the LL can still chase the 4th named on the agreement (and not the 2 last).
5. The agents is (if I'm the agent).
6. It depends on the status of the deposit and if the tenant agrees to it. The price quoted has to be inclusive of VAT though.
7. The guarantor is liable for at least the whole term of the tenancy (unless the tenant moves out and the property is relet), or until the tenant moves out if it's a periodic tenancy. If the guarantor is only liable for the rent then it doesn't extend to dilapidations.
8. Wrong

Paul_f
16-05-2005, 21:22 PM
I've just got to comment on Mr Woof's second answer! This is common to examination answers - somebody hasn't read the Q! Don't embellish the question to produce an answer, just take it at face value!



2. No, tenant must still give the notice period agreed in the AST and pay rent to the end of that but he does not need to wait out the 2 month notice given by the LL. Who said anything about "agreed" notice period - it says periodic tenancy!!

benji
16-05-2005, 21:27 PM
1, yes
2. no
3.he is entitled to the fence being repaired by the landlord, i suppose he could complain to local authority.
4.from all 6
5.i would think the landlord
6.yes
7.indefinetely, not extend to any dilapidations
8.false

well it would be nice to find out how i've fared paul f.

Paul_f
16-05-2005, 21:33 PM
I think it's only fair to give people a fighting chance of at least a week to submit their "scribblings".

Poppy
17-05-2005, 12:36 PM
Here's my go...

1. Yes. Original tenant has signed agreement and paid deposit. Original tenant may have been on holiday/hospital/whateverrrrr at start of tenancy.

2. No. Tenant must give landlord one month notice on periodic - unless both landlord and tenant come to amicable alternative agreement.

3. Not sure. Minor repairs should be undertaken by tenant. Suppose depends how much it costs to repair the fence.

4. Any and all of the students. They are jointly and severally responsible for rent.

5. The person who cleared the snow is responsible.

6. No. Deductions from the deposit should be agreed between landlord and tenant first (not simply dictated by landlord). Deductions must be reasonable and backed by receipts.

7. The guarantor would be liable to pay rent until vacation/eviction (whether that's by mutual consent, court order, end of the fixed period). The guarantor would not be responsible for the dilapidations - write a better tenancy agreement.

8. False. Issue a Section 8 Notice for rent arrears in excess of 2 months.

Paul_f
17-05-2005, 17:45 PM
Just a comment on Zoe's answers


1. yes
2. yes ( I didn;t think so but we had this discussion recently on here)
3. tenant should request that the LL fix it is writting and give him a reasonable time period, after which he should be able to get some quotes and use the cheapest to repair the fence and then charge the LL.
4. Lots m ore information needed - why?, all the information you need is there!
5. agent
6. nope
7. 6 years and no. this isn't the answer to the question by the way, but is again an example of looking for "alternative" meanings - in law as far as I know you only can recover money owed for up to three years on civil matters, even the IR cannot go back beyond that; the Q means is there any limit of liability that the guarantor has to guarantee the rent!
8. false

Paul_f
17-05-2005, 18:02 PM
Nobody has more than four right answers; Q6 needs a bit more explanation -when I said "these amounts" I meant the £25 admin charge, plus the VAT, not the cleaning costs as they weren't specified! Sorry if it confused anyone, it's my own fault.

zoe
18-05-2005, 09:10 AM
paul


4. what kind of agreement/occupation do the tenants have
7. it is called a guess bassed upon what i know in other areas.

zoe

zoe
18-05-2005, 09:12 AM
paul

also in law debts remain recoverable for 6 years not 3.

zoe

Paul_f
18-05-2005, 14:34 PM
Zoe. Thanks for the update on recovery of a debt. I don't profess to know much about this, but I recently underwent an IR inspection and my accountant told me they couldn't go back more than three years in which to recover any unpaid tax, nor could you reclaim any overpayment after that period! I guess that's not a debt as such but an accounting error!

In answer to your other query, assume it's an AST.

attilathelandlord
18-05-2005, 15:04 PM
6 years limited definitely on debt chasing. 12 years I believe on mortgage debt.

Watch for the Inland Revenue though, my understanding is that they can go back 6 years, then if they find something they don't like, they can go back another 6 years from that ad infinitum. They will certainly chase you for back tax and interest unless they have investigated and signed off on those particular years.

That's how it was in my accounting days also.

Paul_f
18-05-2005, 15:30 PM
Cripes! What happens when I'm dead and my beneficiaries have spent it all! (Rest assured there won't be any left for my "beneficiaries", tee hee!)

ngadef
18-05-2005, 15:49 PM
It's twelve years in public sector cases where you have a Possession Order

But after six years you have to seek leave of the judge execute the warrant

Amanda
18-05-2005, 15:54 PM
1. Yes

2. Yes

3. Tenant must write to landlord giving a timescale for repairs to be done by, and inform the LL if they are not done by then he will obtain three quotes and arrange for repairs, deducting the cost from his rent.

4. All 6 - they are all on the tenancy agreement and jointly and severally responsible.

5. You are (whoever shovelled)
6. No

7. Guarantor must rent for as long as the tenancy continues, but is not responsible for dilapidations as this comes out of the deposit.

8. False.

Fingers crossed!!

ngadef
18-05-2005, 15:55 PM
A debt becomes statute barred under the Limitations Act 1980 if you don't take action to collect it for 6 years

attilathelandlord
18-05-2005, 16:43 PM
Paul, if you try something misguided like attempting to drop down dead in order to limit your tax liability no doubt they would dig up your corpse, drag it round at the end of a rope and then put your head on a spike at the Tower of London.

Although didn't Hotblack Desiato spend a year dead for tax purposes?!

If you had an estate they would no doubt try and get their hands on it if you owed them anything!

attilathelandlord
18-05-2005, 17:50 PM
1) No, didn't take possession of property.
2) Can move out early but will be liable for rent until end of notice period or if landlord finds new tenants quickly, until new tenants move in.
3) Give notice to Landlord that repair be made within certain time period, if not done then tenant gets quotes, has repaired and deducts cost from rent.
4) First 4 named on tenancy agreement. 5 and 6 are tenants in common and responsible only for their portion of rent.
5) I am.
6) Depends what has been written into contract. If admin cost plus vat written in, then possibly, although might be deemed unfair term.
7) Liable till end of tenancy (as ended by notice from tenant or landlord) anything after is mesnes profits and not specified as guarantor's responsibility so not recoverable from him/her. Dilapidations not specified as guarantor's responsibility so can't recover from him/her.
8) True if meaning meaning action from landlord. If tenant surrenders tenancy before end of term and landlord accepts, possession is also guaranteed. Ditto for death of tenant.

Jennifer_M
18-05-2005, 19:15 PM
I would like to change my answer to Q8 to True as serving s8 for rent arrears doesn't guarantee possession if tenant brings the rent due to less than 2 months arrears before going to court.

MrWoof
18-05-2005, 20:43 PM
I never did hear if Hotblack's dead year worked, Marvin would know.

Paul_f
19-05-2005, 16:50 PM
There I am, thinking, who's Hotblack Desiato? Google provided the answer although I'm none the wiser!

attilathelandlord
19-05-2005, 17:15 PM
You mean you're not a fan of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?!

MrWoof
19-05-2005, 20:52 PM
And here's me thinking Paul knew the answer to life, the universe and everything. Don't look it up Paul, its 9 x 6 = 42. Yes, you do have to know the book, film, radio etc to understand that one.:D

attilathelandlord
19-05-2005, 21:17 PM
How many roads must a man walk down?

That's right, 42!

But now we've got the answer, what's the actual question?!!

I always saw Paul as Deepthought!

Paul_f
20-05-2005, 07:58 AM
No, I know nuffink! Trivia is not my main diet, except for.....pop quizzes up to about 1975 and I could quote nearly every FA cup final since the last war, and when in my teens (a very long time ago!) could tell you every football league ground; sign of a misspent youth eh? Now I'm so comtemptuous about football and the "Rooneys" of this world. I do have a soft spot for one of the Premier teams and it's definitely not the team who just finished third!

MrWoof
22-05-2005, 17:58 PM
So, not Deepthought then...........Must be one of the mice.