EPC for property rental purposes

[mchu6am4]

Hi,

I am about to rent out a 3 bed property through an agent and I'm being told I'll need an EPC at a cost of £65+VAT?

Is this really needed and also can I get one cheaper without going through the estate agent? Any recommendations please?

Thanks, Ash

[jeffrey]

It is, sad to say. Read through the many, many threads here all about this very topic.

[mk1fan]

Yes they are a legal requirement.

You can get one done by anyone - it doesn't have to be the letting agent's, errr, agent.

However, £50 and up seems to be the price that competant inspectors are charging.

It's a silly peice of legislation that dumbs down the public, the calcs are real world inaccurate and the format is only appropriate for factory built goods.

On the plus side it's tax deductable and they're valid for ten-years (if the property remains un-altered).

[mchu6am4]

Thanks, any recommendation of assessors - Manchester area and what do assessors need to be accredited for, i.e. is there a body that I check if they are registered with?

[mind the gap]

You can get one done by anyone - it doesn't have to be the letting agent's, errr, agent.
This is wrong. EPCs cannot legally be produced by just 'anyone'.

It has to be a qualified Domestic Energy Assessor.

Put 'DEAs - Manchester' into 'yell.com' and it should produce a list for you.

[mchu6am4]

Would these people be suitable?

http://www.nweas.com/meettheteam.html

[islandgirl]

mine was £45 plus vat - http://www.credibleenergy.co.uk/?page_id=27
think they cover M/cr too
even did it on a bank holiday cos I was in a hurry!

[mchu6am4]

I cant remember now...but I purchased my house just over three years ago and not sure if I had this done as part of the buying process.

Can anyone confirm if it was a requirement as my existing EPC will still be valid???

[JK0]

I cant remember now...but I purchased my house just over three years ago and not sure if I had this done as part of the buying process.

Can anyone confirm if it was a requirement as my existing EPC will still be valid???

Yes, it should be in your HIP.

[mchu6am4]

Yes, it should be in your HIP.

My purchase was a bit before they introduced the HIPs...so not sure then if I had one done as part of the purchase...

[mk1fan]

This is wrong.

Oh, apparently you do have to use the Letting Agent's agent.

mchu, If it was [and assuming it was dated the same time] then it should still be valid as long as the property hasn't been altered.

There maybe a central database of EPC's (or I might be mixing it up with the insulation scheme) so a google search would be a starting point. However, for cost of a new one compared to the value of the property is pretty negligable.

[Stacey surveys]

mine was £45 plus vat - http://www.credibleenergy.co.uk/?page_id=27
think they cover M/cr too
even did it on a bank holiday cos I was in a hurry!

'Islandgirl had to pay for an EPC' 'LOL'

[islandgirl]

Ah our old friend returns
I am glad you find the fact that one has to comply with the law even if one does not agree with the law amusing. I aim to entertain. I was of course forced to pay for an EPC totally against my will and having read it I am even more convinced that it is a complete load of pointless rubbish. However I comply with the law. I did get it very cheap though, as cheap as humanly possible in my area and I now don't have to go through the rigmarole for another 10 years.
Anyway, Stacey surveys (as I am sure you do, every day, over and over again), your point is?

[Stacey surveys]

Ah our old friend returns
I am glad you find the fact that one has to comply with the law even if one does not agree with the law amusing. I aim to entertain. I was of course forced to pay for an EPC totally against my will and having read it I am even more convinced that it is a complete load of pointless rubbish. However I comply with the law. I did get it very cheap though, as cheap as humanly possible in my area and I now don't have to go through the rigmarole for another 10 years.
Anyway, Stacey surveys (as I am sure you do, every day, over and over again), your point is?

My point is change is hard, once you've done something once the second time becomes natural. In ten years time purchasing an EPC will become as natural as drawing up a contract. Unfortunately, the EPC you've just bought is unlikely to last that long! Fortunately, though you've managed to find a good local assessor on that island of yours, of which of course is what every property professional should do.

[islandgirl]

I don't think EPCs will be around in 10 years - perhaps they will actually come up with something useful. I wonder why my EPC won't last 10 years? It is an accredited company and the assessor was a very nice chap! I expect you charge a lot more for the same job and I therefore understand you trying to convince the world that EPCs are actually "rocket science" - we all have to defend the thing we earn our living from and I respect that. Carry on surveying (bet you see some sights in your job!)

[jeffrey]

Q: has anyone, anywhere ever heard of any case at all in which P or T refused to proceed due to poor EPC rating?

[islandgirl]

very good question - noone asks for it or wants it in my experience!

[mk1fan]

It would be interesting to know. However, when someone likes a certain style of property - Victorian say - then they accept that there are some negatives associated with that style. Unless of course they're an idiot.

[Stacey surveys]

'island girl'

No, I am sure the DEA you used was a good one and he also charged a reasonable fee , similar to mine. Sorry it must be my Welsh dryness. The EPC probably won't last ten years as they are due to reduce the lifespan, probably five years, maybe three.

[islandgirl]

Oh I didn't know that! Thanks for the heads up! As you can imagine I won't be chuffed if that happens but I will comply. Thanks again IG

[newquay]

Hi just in case anyone else is looking at this thread i only paid £35 including vat on my epc.

[Uncertain]

Q: has anyone, anywhere ever heard of any case at all in which P or T refused to proceed due to poor EPC rating?

I made it a condition of the offer I made on a property I just let that the EPC rating be at least a 'C'. I did that because the last place I let, at a time when I didn't even know of the existence of an EPC, was miserably cold this past winter. The flat I rented before that was so well-insulated that this last place came as a bit of a shock. I don't know what the EPC rating of the flat was unfortunately, but I'm assuming it was quite good. The last place, however, had double glazing, yet it still rated between an 'E' and an 'F'.

So am I understanding correctly based on this thread that the EPC rating can be misleading?

[mind the gap]

I made it a condition of the offer I made on a property I just let that the EPC rating be at least a 'C'. I did that because the last place I let, at a time when I didn't even know of the existence of an EPC, was miserably cold this past winter. The flat I rented before that was so well-insulated that this last place came as a bit of a shock. I don't know what the EPC rating of the flat was unfortunately, but I'm assuming it was quite good. The last place, however, had double glazing, yet it still rated between an 'E' and an 'F'.

So am I understanding correctly based on this thread that the EPC rating can be misleading?

Double glazing in itself does not make a vast difference to a property's rating (single figures percentage points); it makes the property feel a little cosier, that's all. The most important factors are loft and wall insulation and the type of boiler/means of heating.

You are very wise though to insist on as high a rating as possible when renting.

[islandgirl]

£35 FANTASTIC! You did better than me!

[mind the gap]

£35 FANTASTIC! You did better than me!

At that price, I would seriously doubt -or at least check - the DEA's credentials. £35 for a one-off EPC (ie not a multiple commission e.g. block of flats, or several properties near to each other) the numbers just don't stack up. Once the cost of using of the national EPC software is factored in, (not to mention mandatory annual CPD costs) the guy would be working for 90 minutes + travelling time, for about £20 minus the time spent and cost of travel to and from site...no brainer.I would think that anyone offering EPC for £35 will not paid the £3000 for their own professional training, either...that too must be factored in over the first few years at least.

I know several DEAs and for the above reasons, the rock-bottom price for a domestic EPC up to 10 miles travelling distance is £50.

For rural holiday lets, expect to pay a bit mpre still as they are often located more remotely (so greater travel costs). If it's any consolation, islandgirl, I don't understand why hoiday lets even need one!

[islandgirl]

No consolation but thank you MTG! I would get one for a £5 if I could (provided of course it was legit)!

[mind the gap]

No consolation but thank you MTG! I would get one for a £5 if I could (provided of course it was legit)!

Who wouldn't? But it wouldn't be (legit), of course!

[islandgirl]

Fair enough but as long as it does the job (ie complies with the law) I want the cheapest quickest and most rudimentary check possible!

[mind the gap]

Fair enough but as long as it does the job (ie complies with the law) I want the cheapest quickest and most rudimentary check possible!

Well, if you pay peanuts, you tend to get monkeys, and monkeys aren't renowned for their knowledge of energy efficiency. The one maxim which your sainted Jeffrey came out with whihc I think is true is that with any service for which you are paying, you can only ever have two out of three of : cheapness, speed, quality. You cannot have all three.

[islandgirl]

not bothered about the quality because (as you know) I think EPCs are a waste of time. Dont need speed especially. Cheapness will do me!

[mind the gap]

I think EPCs are a waste of time.

Run your reasons (for thinking that) past me again?

[quarterday]

I am about to commission an EPC on a rambling listed 1820s single glazed solid walled villa.

I don't think there is a single low energy light bulb in the place, but dozens of low voltage halogens which were all the rage some twenty years ago but not terribly energy efficient.

Loft insulation is impossible as the roof is a typical Georgian butterfly with central gutter at very low pitch!

This may set a record for the lowest EPC rating ever; albeit that I gather that some Government offices running air conditioning and heating, simultaneously hold that distinction in the realm of commercial EPCs!

Far from all tenants are concerned as to energy efficiency.

[Rodent1]

Well, if you pay peanuts, you tend to get monkeys, and monkeys aren't renowned for their knowledge of energy efficiency. The one maxim which your sainted Jeffrey came out with whihc I think is true is that with any service for which you are paying, you can only ever have two out of three of : cheapness, speed, quality. You cannot have all three.

Send me the monkey everytime - Epcs are nothing short of misleading for the average Joe, quoting energy running costs at completely outdated prices.

As for "quality" ....as long as it is legite it is nothing more than a ticket to prevent a fine in the extremely unlikely event that you should be requested to ever produce one. I havent even got paper copies for most of mine i just keep them stored on on my hard drive.


I do occasionally ask prospective T if they have ever heard of an "epc" which is generally geeted with a blank confused look.
It is also amazing to get the same response when i mention deposit protection ..even 4 years after it was introduced !!!



Normal price in S Wales £35 unless of course you book it thru a LA then it will be closer to double that, don't feed the parasites !!

[mind the gap]

Just because your Ts haven't heard of something does not make it worthless. Your comment about their ignorance of deposit protection proves my point.

I agree with you to some extent about the projected running costs which are valid at the time the EPC is produced - usually when the prop. is about to be rented out, but based on costs which will be out of date within a year. There is however (I believe) an index linked to current energy costs which you can use to update them.

The % rating is a useful comparitve tool for tenants looking at several properties, though. And surely the fact that energy prices are rocketing so fast as to make projected costs obsolete within a year tells us that we have to take energy efficiency more seriously? And if you don't know what the efficiency % was to begin with, how can you ever know how much you have improved it, or which improvements would give you a better return for your investment?

[Rodent1]

Bolx.

Running costs are calculated on "average usage" and imply a real cost which is extremely misleading and has no bearing on reality especially when the epc is nearly 10 years old.

As for index llinked tables - the average tenant works on the mathematical level of dividing a months rent by 4 to get a weekly rental amount - so will struggle with indexed tables.

Be real - just trying to work out the cheapest g/e supplier in todays market requires a degree in bullsh1t ti unravel the ridiculously deliberately overcomplicated tariffs put up by all suppliers. Anyone who believes the over simplistic quotes delivered by comparison sites needs a good shake !


In one of my many lives i used to be a utility broker - trust me i know what i am talking about !!


I wholeheartedly agree with energy efficiency but not epcs.
Loft insulation, wall insulation double triple glazing, A rated combi boilers, quality rads, draft excluders, le bulbs, solar panels, heat pumps, windmills, are all great.

....and a complete waste if time without educating people to switch things off when not in use.

Obligatory room pir sensors would be far more effective - no one in room - power automatically switches off.
I use these at home , in my shop and in ALL my HMOs along with loft ins, le bulbs, A rated boilers etc

So still no hint of use for an epc then!?

[mind the gap]

So still no hint of use for an epc then!?
There are none so blind as those who will not see!

First, in my reference to the energy price index, I didn't mean a comparison site nor that the Ts should have to update the running costs figures. An EPC should be able to be updated in seconds by applying to the national EPC database and quoting the property address, EPC registration, and energy providers used. LL/Agent should be required to do this when re-advertising the property, then showing the updated EPC to prospective Ts. I doubt you can do that yet, but it will come; when EPCs were first designed (as with so much legislation), nobody expected energy prices to double in a matter of a few years.

That is however something of a red herring in your argument (defective as it is). The projected running costs aren't, and will never be, the most useful aspect of an EPC although I'm sure Ts would like them to be more accurate. Your suggestions for energy efficiency measures might (or might not) be practical and useful. Who knows? Can you quantify the difference they'd make for any one property? How?

However, until you address my points, it seems futile to attempt to reason with you. Dismissing something as 'bolox' sends out a pretty clear signal that your views are set in concrete...now who does that remind me of? :D:

[Uncertain]

You are very wise though to insist on as high a rating as possible when renting.

The letting agency gave me every excuse under the sun why the EPC rating for the place I just let wasn't available. Once it became a condition of the offer, of course, one miraculously appeared. I don't know why they made such a fuss about it as the EPC rating turned out to be quite good.

It sounds like the EPC needs improvement, but it's better than no information at all to go on. Am I correct in understanding that the energy companies do not have to divulge energy costs for previous months?

[Uncertain]

It is also amazing to get the same response when i mention deposit protection ..even 4 years after it was introduced !!!

I think tenants will become more and more aware of it as they eventually find themselves in a position where a deposit is withheld unfairly. I knew about it, and thank goodness I did. The deposit was never protected, and, had the landlord not been caught, I would have been paying the cost for him to re-carpet his property. He became much more reasonable once he realized I was aware of the legislation.

[mind the gap]

I think tenants will become more and more aware of it as they eventually find themselves in a position where a deposit is withheld unfairly. I knew about it, and thank goodness I did. The deposit was never protected, and, had the landlord not been caught, I would have been paying the cost for him to re-carpet his property. He became much more reasonable once he realized I was aware of the legislation.

Absolutely. Gone are the days when students like my nephews and nieces handed over several hundred quid to an agent or LL at the start of the tenancy naively thinking they would get it back at the end if they cleaned the place until it sparkled. They would hand it back in a better state than they got it in (mainly because their parents had helped with the cleaning!), but the LL would always find some rubbishy excuse to hang on to the whole deposit, knowing that students would not have the wherewithal to sue him for it. It was seen (by many LLs) very much as a tax-free perk of letting.

Similarly, the sooner Ts wise up to their rights (to demand to see the EPC) and realise the advantages of comparing energy efficiency ratings for different prospective homes, the better. If LLs have any sense, they'll use a good EPC (65% +) to promote their property and a poor one (lower than 50%) as a wake-up call to do something about it, as an investment if nothing else.

I can only conclude that Rodent's Cardiff tenants are abnormally slow on the uptake, as mine in Newcastle and Leeds do ask to see the EPC and are very interested in the energy bills!

[islandgirl]

I agree totally with Rodent. Tenants here in t'north don't ask for it/care about it. As he says it is just a piece of paper I have to have to comply with the law. As for helping tenants to compare properties, tenants who are so thick they cannot look if a house has a) double glazing and b) loft insulation are never ever going to be able to understand the gobbledegook written on an EPC. And going online to have a look at the latest figures......I don't think so!!!!!! Even the agent who did mine thought it was a load of rubbish and he should know! We will agree to differ totally on this MTG and roll on the company offering them for a fiver!

[mind the gap]

I agree totally with Rodent. Tenants here in t'north don't ask for it/care about it. As he says it is just a piece of paper I have to have to comply with the law. As for helping tenants to compare properties, tenants who are so thick they cannot look if a house has a) double glazing and b) loft insulation are never ever going to be able to understand the gobbledegook written on an EPC. And going online to have a look at the latest figures......I don't think so!!!!!! Even the agent who did mine thought it was a load of rubbish and he should know! We will agree to differ totally on this MTG and roll on the company offering them for a fiver!

You can huff and puff and scoff as much as you wish, but I will predict this : whether you like it or not, within 5 years, your tenants (except perhaps in holiday lets) will care about the EPC of your property and they will be insisting that you do something about it, if it is below Band D. They will be forced to wake up to this because by 2016 energy prices will have at least doubled, possibly tripled (source : The Economist. The proportion of Ts' income they are forced to spend on heating and hot water and lighting (not to mention petrol/transport) will have rocketed, compared with even 5 years ago.

And you are wrong : prospective tenants cannot know how energy efficient a property is by looking closely at the type, thickness and the exent of the loft insulation (how many LLs will let them do that? It's probably against H & S for a start!). Plus, double glazing, as mentioned earlier, is desirable but not the most significant factor.

On the other hand, without an EPC, tenants cannot know whether there is cavity wall insulation or not, or how efficient the boiler is. The latter items are by far the most significant, way more important than the more 'visible' measures such as energy efficient light bulbs or dble glazing. And unless they are qualified surveyors, nor can Ts or LLs they know what the maximum practical improvement in the EE rating could be, for that property.

And just because you do not understand what is written on an EPC, does not make it gobbledygook - this suggests you've never looked at one, as I know you are intelligent enough to understand it if you wanted to. Like any technical document, you have to know how to read it, but the information if contains is meaningful, if you bother to find out why/how it can be useful to you and your Ts. EPCs are not perfect (the results for old properties can sometimes be anomalous, for instance) but they are nonetheless a good indicator of where the property is now and where it could be with improvements in place which would be cost effective within 5 years. The problem is of course that it is not the LL who reaps the benefits of those improvmeents in terms of reduced energy consumption - it's the Ts. But if the Ts take one look at your property and discover the bills will be twice or three times as much as another similar size one in the same area, you will be sitting nursing your good old-fashioned no-nonsense attitude to EPCs...and bank statements showing long void periods.

From 2015, Ts will also of course have the option, increasingly, of carbon-neutral homes (EPC 0% or even 'minus figures'), as all newbuilds will be by that point. I know what I'd rent!

In fact, the LLs with real vision and a competitive edge will be installing pv cells on roofs before March of next year...:(clap):

[islandgirl]

I liken your belief in EPCs to your view of the belief in creationism in the Bible thread. I wonder if we will all be on here in 5 years so you can either a) say I told you so or b) admit you were wrong!
All I ask is that everyone respects my right to huff and puff and scoff because I do enjoy it. The most fun I have had today in fact...

[mind the gap]

I liken your belief in EPCs to your view of the belief in creationism in the Bible thread. I wonder if we will all be on here in 5 years so you can either a) say I told you so or b) admit you were wrong!
I'll put it in my diary right away :(call):


All I ask is that everyone respects my right to huff and puff and scoff because I do enjoy it. The most fun I have had today in fact Interesting concept! Just because you enjoy doing something does not mean you have a right to do it...I think that's where the Vikings went wrong, wasn't it? And islandgirl, I'm concerned. If you seriously enjoy being told you're talking twaddle, you need to work on your self esteem...

[mind the gap]

I liken your belief in EPCs to your view of the belief in creationism in the Bible thread.

Why? I think EPCs are useful. I think the belief in creationism is totally useless. I'm struggling to spot the similarity!

[Rodent1]

You can huff and puff and scoff as much as you wish, but I will predict this : whether you like it or not, within 5 years, your tenants (except perhaps in holiday lets) will care about the EPC of your property and they will be insisting that you do something about it, if it is below Band D. They will be forced to wake up to this because by 2016 energy prices will have at least doubled, possibly tripled (source : The Economist. The proportion of Ts' income they are forced to spend on heating and hot water and lighting (not to mention petrol/transport) will have rocketed, compared with even 5 years ago.

And you are wrong : prospective tenants cannot know how energy efficient a property is by looking closely at the type, thickness and the exent of the loft insulation (how many LLs will let them do that? It's probably against H & S for a start!). Plus, double glazing, as mentioned earlier, is desirable but not the most significant factor.

On the other hand, without an EPC, tenants cannot know whether there is cavity wall insulation or not, or how efficient the boiler is. The latter items are by far the most significant, way more important than the more 'visible' measures such as energy efficient light bulbs or dble glazing. And unless they are qualified surveyors, nor can Ts or LLs they know what the maximum practical improvement in the EE rating could be, for that property.

And just because you do not understand what is written on an EPC, does not make it gobbledygook - this suggests you've never looked at one, as I know you are intelligent enough to understand it if you wanted to. Like any technical document, you have to know how to read it, but the information if contains is meaningful, if you bother to find out why/how it can be useful to you and your Ts. EPCs are not perfect (the results for old properties can sometimes be anomalous, for instance) but they are nonetheless a good indicator of where the property is now and where it could be with improvements in place which would be cost effective within 5 years. The problem is of course that it is not the LL who reaps the benefits of those improvmeents in terms of reduced energy consumption - it's the Ts. But if the Ts take one look at your property and discover the bills will be twice or three times as much as another similar size one in the same area, you will be sitting nursing your good old-fashioned no-nonsense attitude to EPCs...and bank statements showing long void periods.

From 2015, Ts will also of course have the option, increasingly, of carbon-neutral homes (EPC 0% or even 'minus figures'), as all newbuilds will be by that point. I know what I'd rent!

In fact, the LLs with real vision and a competitive edge will be installing pv cells on roofs before March of next year...


The use of energy saving measures and an epc have very little in common.
To make the most of energy efficiency the challange is to educate people to use less and switch off when not is use.
The government would have spent our money better by printing 10 billion "switch it off" stickers.



In fact, the LLs with real vision and a competitive edge will be installing pv cells on roofs before March of next year...:(clap):

The avarage T is at work all day - when they get home they will be billed as normal on Nat grid usage - savings will be minimal - unless LL opts for expensive battery storage and ac/dc converters....which are pretty much cost prohibitive at the moment.

[mind the gap]

T
The avarage T is at work all day - when they get home they will be billed as normal on Nat grid usage - savings will be minimal - unless LL opts for expensive battery storage and ac/dc converters....which are pretty much cost prohibitive at the moment.No, the occupant gets about 3-4 kw (free) during daylight hours.(Not all Ts are out at work anyway. Parents with children at home, carers and cared for, retired Ts, etc). Put washing machine, t/dryer, dishwasher on timers; fridge and freezer will be free; electric storage heaters can be charged up during the day to release free heat at night. LL is getting feed in tariff (up to £2000 p.a.) - system pays for itself within 6-9 years, then it's all profit.

I there was I thinking you were a creative business man!

Using less in the first place : that's exactly what energy efficiency measures such as insulation are designed to ensure. Agree about switching stuff off, though. Why are teenagers incapable of it? My son could do itperfectly easily when he was aged 4-12, then, ever since hitting 13, he finds he cannot.

[Rodent1]

No, the occupant gets about 3-4 kw (free) during daylight hours.(Not all Ts are out at work anyway. Parents with children at home, carers and cared for, retired Ts, etc). Put washing machine, t/dryer, dishwasher on timers; fridge and freezer will be free; electric storage heaters can be charged up during the day to release free heat at night. LL is getting feed in tariff (up to £2000 p.a.) - system pays for itself within 6-9 years, then it's all profit.

6-9 is over optomistic, 9-12 is more realistic.
Storage heaters ! more investment required then to increase payback time.
Feedin tariff is reducing year by year (unit rate) dependent on when you "get in".
The ideals are great - the reality and in going prices are not right yet - when they are i will be investing. At the moment I am looking into solar panels to heat my pool as the seperate boiler for this is on it's last legs and needs replacing.


I there was I thinking you were a creative business man!
I am !- i am also looking at biomass burners, ground heat source pumps and PV panels for my home (and the expensive battery back up) but right now - i am not entertaining doing this on my rental properties as it is cost prohibitive.




Using less in the first place : that's exactly what energy efficiency measures such as insulation are designed to ensure. Agree about switching stuff off, though. Why are teenagers incapable of it? My son could do itperfectly easily when he was aged 4-12, then, ever since hitting 13, he finds he cannot.

I have ranted and raed at my ove half and teenage daughter for many years about leving lights & TVs on - it is finally starting to work !!!!


...this does not change my opinion on the worthless use of an epc tho!

[islandgirl]

Why? I think EPCs are useful. I think the belief in creationism is totally useless. I'm struggling to spot the similarity!
The link was I think EPCs are useless pointless and a waste of time - I think you have a similar view of creationism!

[islandgirl]

Interesting concept! Just because you enjoy doing something does not mean you have a right to do it...I think that's where the Vikings went wrong, wasn't it? And islandgirl, I'm concerned. If you seriously enjoy being told you're talking twaddle, you need to work on your self esteem...
Now Vikings = there's a interesting subject. My Husband is one (DNA tested) so we have fun in my house as you can imagine!
As for self esteem - I am one of those rare people who is so confident that I don't need the approval of others to boost my self esteem - therefore I dont care if everyone thinks I am talking twaddle - they are usually wrong :D:

[Rodent1]

Now Vikings = there's a interesting subject. My Husband is one (DNA tested) so we have fun in my house as you can imagine!
As for self esteem - I am one of those rare people who is so confident that I don't need the approval of others to boost my self esteem - therefore I dont care if everyone thinks I am talking twaddle - they are usually wrong :D:


...loving it IG !