Do we realy need an EPC?

[Muddymike]

Hi Folks. I am new here and will be honest have joined to ask a question. Having said that I have learned a lot already from reading other questions and replies so will probably hang around.

We have an apartment joined to our home, it was originally a granny annex. for the past three years we have been letting it as a holiday apartment. I have been told we should have an EPC, but am unable to confirm if we really need one.

The apartment consists of 4 rooms and a hallway, and is attached to and accessible internally from our home, we share the use of a laundry room and back entrance hall. The heating and hot water is supplied by a gas boiler in our home. The electricity all comes via our meter. The weekly letting fee includes all heating and electricity. It is only let on a weekly basis to holidaymaker.

Do we need an EPC?

Mike

[jjlandlord]

A quick googling told me that EPCs are required for holiday lets since 1st April this year if property is rented out for more than 4 months combined in any 12 months period.

[JK0]

A couple of years ago, I had to get an EPC for a derelict house I was selling to be converted into flats. How mad is that?

[mind the gap]

A couple of years ago, I had to get an EPC for a derelict house I was selling to be converted into flats. How mad is that?

Assuming the building was being sold as one entity, I suppose they couldn't make a special case for yours on the strength that it was 'being sold to be converted'. There are regulations about the sale of property which are far more bonkers, to be fair!

And don't get me started on the fees some solicitors charge for sending out short, standard conveyancing letters along the lines of 'We write to advise that we cannot proceed with your purchase just yet as we await instructions from the vendor's solicitors. Yours, etc.' Nice money if you can get it!

[mk1fan]

For the sake of £50 I'd just get one done anyway.

[Muddymike]

For the sake of £50 I'd just get one done anyway.
Yes I know, but I keep thinking of all the other things I would much rather spend 50 quid on. I am sure most of our guests would also much prefer 50 quids worth of extra comfort or convenience than a meaningless certificate.

Mike

[banner257]

I do not know anyone who has found a certificate of any value, does anyone care what the certificate says. All the certificates I have looked at, always have exclusions due to the surveyor not being able to to check inside cavities etc. But the Government gets the VAT so they think it is a good thing.

[Snorkerz]

It's tax allowable and lasts for 10 years. That's around £3 - £5 a year once you take into account the tax. Why does everyone get so worked up about paying £5 a year to comply with the law?

[HolidayHomeInformation]

Also note the EPC certificate needs to be displayed on your website if you have one.

Will be interesting to see how Trading Standards enforce this new regulation when it becomes a requirement at the end of the month.

[Rodent1]

Since epc were introduced - i have NOT ONCE been asked to produce a copy for anyone at any time - complete and utter waste of time.....
Until guvmint decide that a min level must be attained ......which won't be too far away methinks..

[boletus]

It's tax allowable and lasts for 10 years. That's around £3 - £5 a year once you take into account the tax. Why does everyone get so worked up about paying £5 a year to comply with the law?

You claim it is only £5 a year. If you had more than one property would you think it worth getting worked up about? 20 or a 100 maybe.
Thats a lot of fivers to unnecessarily pay out every year if you're doing it merely to comply with the law. I note you don't make any claims for the benefits of EPC's here.

[Snorkerz]

You claim it is only £5 a year. If you had more than one property would you think it worth getting worked up about? 20 or a 100 maybe.
Thats a lot of fivers to unnecessarily pay out every year if you're doing it merely to comply with the law. I note you don't make any claims for the benefits of EPC's here.No, I don't make any claims for the benefits of having an EPC - I will leave that to MTG who has done so eruditely on many occasions. I do make claims for the benefits of being a law abiding citizen.

If I had 20 properties to obtain EPCs for, I would also have 20 lots of rental income to cover that cost. The number of properties is irrelevant because as the cost increases, so does the profit.

[Rodent1]

I object more to the cost of HMO licences. I do not disagree with the concept at all - just the rip off fees charged.

[boletus]

Hello Snorkerz,

If you are claiming the law requiring an EPC is justifiable solely because it doesn't cost much then I disagree.

If you are claiming there are other benefits to an EPC, that is a different matter and has already been fully covered on here.

I do not dispute you are a law abiding citizen.

I concede the number of properties is irrelevant, whether it is £5 or £5000 per year wasted, IF the legislation is wrong then perhaps it is worth getting worked up about and the law should be changed.

Regards, boletus

[boletus]

I object more to the cost of HMO licences. I do not disagree with the concept at all - just the rip off fees charged.
Although OT, I agree about the rip off fees (and also those that are charged for selective licensing).

[Ericthelobster]

Until guvmint decide that a min level must be attained ......which won't be too far away methinks..7 years, to be precise:

From the Guardian, 15 June (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/15/energy-bill-landlords-efficient)

"Landlords will be forced to refurbish hundreds of thousands of the UK's most draughty and energy-inefficient homes or find themselves blocked from renting them out, under proposals unveiled on Tuesday.

The government has bowed to pressure from campaigners and brought forward an amendment to its energy bill, discussed by MPs yesterday, that would stop landlords from renting out homes that fell into the worst two bands of energy efficiency – F and G. The clause was missing from the original bill."

[Rodent1]

Ya seee...............

[mind the gap]

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?38892-Green-Deal-energy-efficiency-what-effect-on-L

The usefulness of EPCs increases in direct proportion to the rise in the cost of household energy bills.

Unless one instals solar panels, a ground source heat pump or a windmill (which may or may not be practical/cost effective in the medium term for you), then domestic energy bills, it is fairly safe to say, are only going one way (up).

Scottish Power : increase of up to 19% from August...other providers' increases to follow.

[midlandslandlord]

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?38892-Green-Deal-energy-efficiency-what-effect-on-L

The usefulness of EPCs increases in direct proportion to the rise in the cost of household energy bills.

Unless one instals solar panels, a ground source heat pump or a windmill (which may or may not be practical/cost effective in the medium term for you), then domestic energy bills, it is fairly safe to say, are only going one way (up).

Scottish Power : increase of up to 19% from August...other providers' increases to follow.

We have an optimist in our midst :-)

... multiplied by the degree to which the number out of the EPC model actually reflects what is possible with energy efficiency.

In fact they promote reasonable practice by not being capable of reflecting best practice.

Example: excellent cavity wall insulation vs bog-standard cavity wall insulation. All they have is a tickbox unless you pay £££ for the alternative algorithm.

ML

[midlandslandlord]

7 years, to be precise:

From the Guardian, 15 June (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/15/energy-bill-landlords-efficient)

"The government has bowed to pressure from campaigners and brought forward an amendment to its energy bill, discussed by MPs yesterday, that would stop landlords from renting out homes that fell into the worst two bands of energy efficiency – F and G. The clause was missing from the original bill."

Surely one issue here is that houses which are incapable of meeting F & G may become illegal to be rented out.

It won't happen?

Yes it could. They just won't think about it when drafting the regulations.

This is the problem with many 'campaigners'. They live in offices within 400m of Westminster and rely on spreadsheets not reality.

ML

[mind the gap]

Surely one issue here is that houses which are incapable of meeting F & G may become illegal to be rented out.

It won't happen?

Yes it could. They just won't think about it when drafting the regulations.

This is the problem with many 'campaigners'. They live in offices within 400m of Westminster and rely on spreadsheets not reality.

ML

I hope it does happen. I would not wish a rental property rated F or G on a dog. The tenant would need a mortgage just to heat the place. If it makes LLs improve their draughty, poorly insulated properties or replace clapped out heating systems, then good.

[midlandslandlord]

As it happens I have an example to hand :-), MTG.

I'd welcome your comments.

Substantial 2 bedroom bungalow on half an acre, substantially refurbished in 2005 and 2007 in 2 bites. Well-built in the 1950s (the farming couple who built it for themselves lived there for 40 years) with stone block/concrete block cavity wall.

Current status:

Phenolic cavity wall insulation. IIRC that is 2-3x better than the normal 'warmfront' type. That higher quality does not even register in the EPC calculation.
250mm of roof insulation.
'Mostly' double glazed. One loo, the pantry and the back door (with its own corridor before you get to anything) are not double-glazed.
New kitchen, laminate floors etc which are not really relevant to energy.
Off-peak electric boiler with flexible boost, as the gas supply is half a mile away either way.
Radiators with TRVs, timer programmer, thermostats etc.

Energy efficiency rating: Just made it into F. 21 out of 100. All the EPC elements are 4*, except for Main Heating *, Windows ** and Hot Water ***. Floor insulation and Secondary heating do not apply.

The improvement potential is rated a "none possible" - which I question because the few windows not yet replaced could be doubleglazed. It won't make an E, though.

It is significant that EPC is a crude tool - a point I made earlier in the thread. When you use a crude tool to impose simplistic measures with little flexibility, you make serious mistakes. They could do it if there was a fit-for-purpose EPC system, which we don't have, or some flexibility in the new law.

Under the proposed amendment, this property could not be legally rented.

It is not drafty, nor over expensive to heat, nor poorly insulated, nor unsuitable for a dog. And it has been successfully rented for at least the last decade.

This is why having universal rules designed by chinless wonders with their heads up their bottoms wibbling away in Whitehall is *wrong*, and that is (partly) why we are in our current mess.

That's always the problem with mad, centralising, regulators. They think they know best in all cases.

They don't.

Special cases are necessary, because they exist in the world outside Excel spreadsheets, and rules must be drafted to permit exceptions.

Rgds

ML

[mk1fan]

I know of a building that would score highly (B) on an EPC but due to poor workmanship to the sub structure it costs a fortune to run (although it's improving as the workmanship is made good).

It is indeed a crude tool and not fit for assessing a building.

[asheri]

This will come on in 2018.

[JK0]

This will come on in 2018.

Asheri, are you building up your post count with inane posts so that you can link to some pathetic website?

[Mrs Dingle]

I have an epc on a flat that i rent out.

It says cavity wall insulation. assumed
Loft insulation. Assumed.
Recommend changing 50% of the lights to energy saving.
There are 5 lights.

The above epc on the flat is official.

In my opinion its not worth a fly.

[islandgirl]

anyone know if holiday rentals in scotland will need this useless piece of paper?