Multiple Residents but no HMO

[Strachanovich]

Hi there... I live in a nice quiet residential area (or used to!)

Recently one of our neighbours who was unable to sell his property, but moved out and handed it over to a letting agency.
We were told 2 students would be moving in - I thought this strange at the time as it is a 5 bedroomed house.

We have now come to realize that there are at least 5 or 6 students living at this property and they have their friends round most nights to sit in the garden, blast out loud music till all hours and generally make our lives miserable - there can be up to 12 of them at any one time coming and going at all hours and not just the weekends. We have had words with them and are told it won't happen again but usually starts up again within a day or two.

The police have been called countless times due to the noise which can go on to 2 or 3 am
Everyone else in the street is either a family with kids or OAP.
No HMO was applied for, to the best of my knowledge, as everyone would have objected.

What, in your opinion, would be the best way to go about this.
The letting agency will no doubt play dumb because as far as they are aware it is only two students (yeah right) - but we know very different.

I would very much appreciate any advice on this troublesome matter - i have young kids who are having their sleep disturbed by these inconsiderate idiots and it's only a matter of time before I go round there and banjo the lot of them....

thanks in advance

Strachanovich

[Snorkerz]

Is he property higher than 2 storeys high?
Are there lots of other HMO properties in the area (say over 50% of the street?)

If the answers are both no, then the property may well not need a HMO locense - but a phone call to the HMO officer at your local council will verify this.

In which case, you deal with this as per any other 'nuisance neighbour' issue - probably start with the Environmental Health Officer at your local council with regard to noise polution, and the police with regards to disturbance of the police / any criminal matter.

[Strachanovich]

Thanks for your quick reply - The property is 2 storey - but the students occupy the bottom half. There are a couple of other HMO properties in the area but they are no trouble at all.
I was always under the impression that 3 or more unrelated habitees required an HMO. The owner of the property would be utterly horrified if he knew what was going on here - but he's away on his travels and can't be contacted.

[Phlash]

There is a difference between what is classified as an HMO under the housing act, which is along the lines you describe above, and whether an HMO requires a licence.

A licensable HMO will generally need to be 3 storeys to fall under the licensing category, otherwise it is perfectly acceptable and the Council or planning departments need not be informed. (Other detailed factors apply)

I would contact the agent in the first instance. (I manage HMO's, and our agency has protocols for such problems, your agency might too.)

If it persists, then suggest that you follow Snorkerz advice.

They are in fact just a normal neighbour, despite there being 5/6 of them, and it sounds as though any prior objection would have been a waste of breath since it appears there is nothing that they have done wrong in putting multiple tenants in the house.

[Phlash]

PS. I find an open relationship between neighbours of HMO's is the best course of action, for all.

Hint: If they are students, a door bell knock at 9am to discuss any problems lets them know what it is like to be woken up without it being harassment!! Students are predictable and many still asleep at that time....that can be used to your slight advantage without it being unreasonable in the eyes of any reasonable person.

"Sorry to have woken you, but I just wanted to chat about last night in which my children were also woken up. I don't mind you having the odd party, but could you let us know when we should expect some noise and perhaps try to make it a little quieter after 11pm. Thanks, and have a nice day! PS. Here are some homemade flapjacks to welcome you to the neighbourhood, and I hope you might be available for the BBQ get together later this summer?"

That will put them on the back foot...

Tends to be a much better approach than the police knocking on the door, which just heightens the bravado and can escalate the problem.

[Strachanovich]

So basically I'm screwed then is what you're saying?

Without wanting to get all up myself this isn't an area that should have students living in it - as their way of life will always conflict with those who just want a bit of peace and quiet - people around here have paid substantial sums of money for their homes and they and I didn't do that to live next to a buch of ingrates that don't give a toss for their neighbours - I would never have moved here if that was the case.

There is also the fact that we were lied to.
The letting agency understands that there are only 2 named tenants - but we can prove there are way more than that.
I've tried the nice approach, I've talked to them to make them understand how much their noise affects us all in the street but to no avail. It's not as if it is just now and again either - i make that 5 nights out of the past 8 they've been at it - gangs of students all shouting, swearing and being complete arses along to a soundtrack of heavy bass music and it drives us all to utter distraction.

How do i explain to my four year old who gets continually woken up by this racket that there is nothing I can do about it short of taking a baseball bat to them?

The police aren't much use and I don't believe they should waste their time on such nonsense either - they have bigger things than noisy students to worry about.

Thanks for your advice anyway, it is much appreciated.

[Phlash]

I understand the annoyance.

From my experience though, and you can cast this aside as you may wish, your annoyance and tone demonstrated above will undoubtedly come across to the students even if you believe you're being nice when you communicate with them. I can tell that from residents I speak to from the off, because as agent I am tarnished with the same brush.

The problem here is that this gets their back up, and so the walls go up and carefree attidtude entrenches.

I understand it is hard to really play nice, but you have to view it as a quasi game and forget that you just want a cricket bat in your hand. The sooner you have had them around for afternoon tea/BBQ and they have met your son, the sooner they feel a responsibility for his welfare - sleep!

I am not pretending that such action is easy, but the students are expecting you to start shouting and screaming about their behaviour. Throw them a curve ball and you may soon find that they are far more responsive.

We get our tenants to do exactly this with their neighbours, because students can be on the receiving end of a lot of horrible treatment as well. It's about breaking down barriers, and blowing away their expectation of hate from neighbours. A lot of students wonder why they should bother because they are normally written off before they move in.

Of course, exceptions always apply.

With regard to your point about the placement of HMO's, local council policy is, generally to do what you are seeing on your doorstep - Put HMO's in places that are not densely packed with HMO's in order to get a more even spread across different areas. They do this through the planning permissions required in various places now, as a consequence of local councils issuing Article 4 directions. If someone did have to apply in your area, they'd probably get permission easily, compared to a place with lots of HMOs. They are trying to avoid studentification. Policy is therefore attempting to do what you are seeing.

[mind the gap]

Although in principle I agree with Phlash, I can understand your frustration. I let to students in a very 'studenty' area of Newcastle and I must admit there have been a couple of years when I would not have wanted to have lived next door to some of my tenants. Having said that, the majority are lovely and they feel much maligned when older residents in the street assume they will be loud, messy and antisocial.

It was in fact my student tenants who tracked down and alerted the next door landlord to the fact that water was leaking out of his front door after the Christmas break (major burst pipe incident - ceilings coming down, etc). All he said to them was 'Bloody students! I told them to leave the boiler on frost setting'.

If the students next to you continue to be loud and antisocial despite the friendly overtures recommended by Phlash, then you may find some redress with your local council's noise abatement officer. You will need to keep a detailed written log of the disturbances, though.

[Strachanovich]

Despite my tone of frustration, I and the rest of the street have been nothing but accomodating towards these guys - yes it was a bit of a shock to the system when they first moved in as we weren't used to that level of noise, and it really is a quiet leafy street, but we were all young once and I have been very aware of not coming across as a moany so and so - I'm only 39 which isn't that old :D ...is it?
The main problems have arisen later at night and therein lies the crux of it.

But now that I know I can't do much about it (other than waste police time & complain over and over again) I'm quite disheartened by it all to be honest.

Might be time to start thinking of a move...

[Snorkerz]

FWIW, if they're students, they may be moving out soon, if not for good then you should at least get a summer respite as they go home to mummy! Maybe it's time to start getting a dialog gong with the landlord about his next set of tenants. After all, students, who have migratory tendancies, are more expensive tenants than a family who may stay for five years or so - and would keep you and your neighbours happy. Maybe one of you even knows someone who would be an ideal tenant - cousins, nephews, workmates etc. This would be a very pro-active stance.

[suile]

Find out which university/college the students are attending and complain directly to them. We DIDN'T do this in time when we were plagued by noisy student tenants (they were only there for one term but it was long enough) and I seriously regret not taking more direct action.

Apparently, there are sanctions that can be taken against students causing neighbourhood nuisance re their courses, and the educational institutes are very keen not to get a bad reputation for themselves. Quite apart from anything else, it makes it hard for students to get housing once word gets around about their behaviour.

[Phlash]

Agree with Snorkerz, they will probably be changing tenants this summer.

At which point you can try and employ some of the things mentioned in this thread.

Understand the shock factor, and the feeling that it's not what you signed up for. To avoid in the future you'll always need to rule out 5+ mile radius around a University, which could cut your choices severely.

If open dialogue is as you say achieving nothing, hope that it dies down as Easter break draws to a close and the exam season begins again, and if it continues then start logging as Snorkerz says. Then take to the appropriate body.

[Strachanovich]

Thanks for the advice Snorkerz, Phlash and others - it's all very much appreciated.

I'd never thought about contacting the Uni direct, so will maybe give that a go if all else fails.

Cheers

[Phlash]

With regard to Suile's comments.

It is very unlikely that any typical student agent or landlord would uncover their past behaviour. A house can get a reputation, but the students in them simply move on. Many contracts are signed without reference to prior tenancies/behaviour.

Secondly, in your local universities are anyuthing like mine, if the accommodation is off campus then they probably won't touch any individual complaints, since it is outside of their duristiction. They will probably point you to some university written literature saying what students' best practice is, but anything more than that would be a great bonus.

[QuestForFreedom]

Move to the countryside! Cows parties are much quieter.

[mind the gap]

Move to the countryside! Cows parties are much quieter.
Until the bulls gatecrash them!

(Basil brush style : Boom! Boom!)

[Wickerman]

Agree with Snorkerz, they will probably be changing tenants this summer.

At which point you can try and employ some of the things mentioned in this thread.

Understand the shock factor, and the feeling that it's not what you signed up for. To avoid in the future you'll always need to rule out 5+ mile radius around a University, which could cut your choices severely.

If open dialogue is as you say achieving nothing, hope that it dies down as Easter break draws to a close and the exam season begins again, and if it continues then start logging as Snorkerz says. Then take to the appropriate body.

We never used to worry too much about landlord references from student tenants - until now. Yesterday I visited a student property on a pre-checkout inspection to find that they had set fire to some furniture and dragged it outside, smashed up two doors, and set one of them on fire, causing fire damage to a wall and ceiling.

Quite what the tenants were hoping to achieve is beyond me, but its a police matter now (given statement today).

[mind the gap]

We never used to worry too much about landlord references from student tenants - until now. Yesterday I visited a student property on a pre-checkout inspection to find that they had set fire to some furniture and dragged it outside, smashed up two doors, and set one of them on fire, causing fire damage to a wall and ceiling.

Quite what the tenants were hoping to achieve is beyond me, but its a police matter now (given statement today).

Their finals didn't go quite as well as expected, then?