Licence Agreement - Withholding Rent

[Arteta]

I am a student living in a 17 bedroomed house, there are houses either side of us making a total of 47 students in the enitre premises.
We share common areas and as far as I can tell from the contract, only the rooms are private areas to us.
The landlord does not live on-site. We have cleaning services 3 times a week and in addition to our rent we're being charged a 'service charge' for all repairs.
Everybody is charged for the internet regardless of whether you have a PC (though not in the contract or on the website) and if there's a breakage in house A then houses B & C will still get their share of the bill. Literally all damages and bills are shared throughout 3 properties. As far as I can tell it is a licence agreement and this means they don't have to protect our deposit (which they haven't anyway).
We have had many problems this year with management.
The cleaner, also known as the 'property manager' (separate from Landlord) refuses to clean sometimes if it's 'too messy' (nothing extreme like bodily fluids) and she leaves an hour early almost every shift, which is a quarter of her shift. We are not entitled to reimbursements. The cleaning is minimal. The property manager enters some bedrooms without permission. They put up a notice on the board to say all viewings for next year commence on 8th December and that's the whole notice for the year, so sometimes we'll wake to a knock on the door and there's 6 students waiting to come in. That same property manager has been talking to some other students saying how if she loses her job then she knows where we live (non-term time addresses) and she's hinted physical violence but not said it, and everybody in the house knows it's aimed at me, because i'm the one who complains and she doesn't like me. She also said she can't wait to collect our census forms for information, I did it online though. This is isn't enough to go to the police though.

Some repairs have taken months to happen. Next door has been without proper heating for months, one students room has developed mould and he's going to the doctor for breathing problems. A student in my house had a broken window latch during winter so she couldn't close her window and she filled in a 'report form' which was consequently binned by the property manager that does not like her, when the landlord was phoned 3 weeks later he said he didn't know about it and it was fixed, she had been relying on a hairdryer to keep the room warm. Many students had been waiting on matresses/beds for about 6 months. When the only oven in the 1 communal kitchen broke it took about 10 days to be replaced and some people lost food. Both washing machines and both driers between all students have been broken since August when we signed the contract, we got 1 washing machine replaced only a month ago.
The landlord has switched off power without notice and a student lost some university work.
The property manager throws out our things regularly; shampoo, toothbrushes, magazines, alcohol, food and has been known to throw away the odd shoe and then deny it. The landlord justifies it though by saying anything left in the common areas can be thrown. The property manage has been known to turn off freezers during summer when some students leave and some new ones come in, bad for students signing on for a second year with food in the freezer.

We have complained about how unusable the internet is since August and they tried to put in an additional line in January and have charged us extra despite our signed petition to say we will not pay. The internet is still not good and waiting an hour for a webpage to load is normal. Not good for final year students.
Whenever a student locks themselves out of their room the property manager is supposed to come and open the door for £20, she never does but gives out the code to the master key, then everybody knows the code for weeks until it's changed, then it happens again. People go into eachothers rooms for pranks

We have to pay for washing tokens to use the broken washing machines from the property manager when she's on shift (remember she leaves early all the time) even though we pay for electricity and water on the machines. This was not advertised when we signed the contract.

Whenever anything breaks we don't get any bills. I've seen the end-of-year report given to students last year and it says things like 'Invoice 1598 - £300' and we don't know what the bill is for.

On top of everything the landlord and property manager are just rude. They leave rude notes and try to 'punish us' by not giving us washing token and such. The landlord told one students father that he must 'exercise discipline or they will run riot'. We are children to them and must be patronised. There is a complete lack of respect and they aren't afraid to break the rules.

We've complained to the landlord about many things and even tried to have a chat about everything and he ignores some questions, he blindly defends the property manager.

I have complained to Unipol/ANUK and they are currently in the process of reviewing the property, but it still doesn't help us when it comes to paying the bills at the end.
The initial research i've done seems to tell me that because I have a licence agreement I have barely any rights and I have to swallow all of this and pay them all of the money, or I'll end up worse.

I've written 5 separate petitions that are going round all 47 students, I currently have 130 signatures accross them all and I have about 10 more students to meet. The petitions cover the bad cleaning services, the master key, the internet, repairs and entering rooms.

Now my question is do I have any rights here??? I cannot bare to pay them all the money and bow down because I am a helpless student with no rights.

There was a house party recently and they are milking it for all it's worth, letters have been sent out to guarantors (and students) saying that there was excessive damage, lives were at risk and the police have been involved.
This is massively exaggerated. 4 Fire extinguishers were let off and somebody wrote on the walls (I kicked him out) and some paintings were smashed. The party ended at 5am on a Sunday morning, management were round at 9am Sunday to take pictures of the place and milk it. If they hadn't come round until Monday as usual the only damages would have been extinguishers and damaged paintings, the rest of the house was cleaned and walls were washed. There's probably only £500 damage MAX split between all students, and almost all of that money is extinguishers, but I'll bet my ass that the bill will end up being thousands. I will not pay for a single thing until I have a full list of damages. So I'll pay any excess later.


I was thinking about paying the rent, but withholding the charge for the internet and a quarter of the money that goes towards the cleaning (using last years end-of-year financial report) since she doesn't wor kfor a quarter of her shift. I was also going to deduct my deposit and tell them to keep mine, so they can't just take what I owe from my deposit.
Please note that they never take any money from people's deposits like a normal landlord. They pay for all damages with the service charge paid for by all students (£17 per week each) and then the deposits are left unscathed. This is why we'll take the deposit amount off our bill, because all damages would come out of the service charge. This year because of this party it might be different though, they might touch the deposit.

Am I setting myself up for a legal disaster? There may be a few of us all doing this together. Maybe as many as 10 people. Maybe only 2 of us.

Any help is GREATLY appreciated. This is making my life very stressful right now.

[jeffrey]

Way too long for a full reply; sorry.
Why do you think that you have only a Licence?

[Arteta]

You can't offer any advice? :(
Even in bullet points?

Well the contract says it's a licence agreement, plus they're so confident about it that they haven't protected our deposits and have admitted it.

I also checked with Shelter England's Tenancy Checker

When I check the box saying "I'm provided with services as part of my rent (Cleaning, provision of meals or laundry)" it immediately says i'm an excluded occupier with minimum rights.

[robbo23]

Are you being provided with cleaning, laundry services or meals? From what I have read the property manager looks after the common areas of the property rather than your room?

If you have a look at the paperwork that was signed by you and your guarantor it will tell you the form of agreement that is operating. Either an AST or license.

Whilst the property manager is probably overzealous (assuming what you have said is correct) I can understand the landlords reaction after the all night party. A party of 47 tenants plus all their guests may have generated some complaints to the environmental health dept and police and has probably caused disturabance to other neighbours.

What you are probably not aware is that the landlord has very strict property management regulations that will apply to a property used in this way (Sui Generis) and fire safety is pretty high up the agenda.

In my own opinion I find your 'laissez faire' attitude of causing £500 worth of damage and not worrying about it really quite immature.

[jeffrey]

If you have a look at the paperwork that was signed by you and your guarantor it will tell you the form of agreement that is operating. Either an AST or license.
That could be very misleading. A 'Licence' can in law sometimes create a Letting Agreement (Tenancy).
See Street v. Mountford re why/how.

[Arteta]

Are you being provided with cleaning, laundry services or meals? From what I have read the property manager looks after the common areas of the property rather than your room?

If you have a look at the paperwork that was signed by you and your guarantor it will tell you the form of agreement that is operating. Either an AST or license.

Whilst the property manager is probably overzealous (assuming what you have said is correct) I can understand the landlords reaction after the all night party. A party of 47 tenants plus all their guests may have generated some complaints to the environmental health dept and police and has probably caused disturabance to other neighbours.

What you are probably not aware is that the landlord has very strict property management regulations that will apply to a property used in this way (Sui Generis) and fire safety is pretty high up the agenda.

In my own opinion I find your 'laissez faire' attitude of causing £500 worth of damage and not worrying about it really quite immature.
Immature because I'm not too worried about it? There's a new one. Do not assume my personality based on my feelings towards one event. I'm not very happy with the damages, I did not get involved with any of them and I was the only person at the party policing the place so don't assume i'm careless. £500 between 47 people is £10.60. It would be more immature if I worried about that amount.

Yes we're being provided with cleaning, not in the room, but of the common areas. Well we're supposed to anyway. Now that it's half-term for students she hasn't even bothered coming in today, and i'm supposed to pay for that?

I can understand the landlords being anxious about the party, but not everybody was involved and it shouldn't matter so long as they get their money for damages, which they will. My talk of withholding some rent does not extend to damages, if they can provide an accurate/fair list of the damages and their costs then I will happily pay, despite not having much to do with this party.

[robbo23]

Agreed Jeremy, should have said told you what you have signed rather than what type of agreement is in force.

[Arteta]

That could be very misleading. A 'Licence' can in law sometimes create a Letting Agreement (Tenancy).
See Street v. Mountford re why/how.
I don't do law, so I can't argue here, but I will type up the beginning of the licence (after the page where it establishes the name/address of the licensee and guarantor.



1.1 In this Licence Agreement unless the context otherwise requires the following expressions bear the meanings assigned to them as follows:-
1.2 the Clauses and Clause Headings in this Licence Agreement are for ease of reference only and shall not be taken into account in the construction or interpretation of any covenant conditio or proviso to which they may refer.
1.3 the Licensor means the estate owner of the reversion immediately expectant in the form hereby granted.
1.4 the Licensee means the party named as the Licensee in the particulars and shall include successors in title and permitted assigns of the Licensee (if any).


I don't really understand any of this but shows they believe it to be a licence. On the Front page it says Student Accommodation Licence Agreement.

[robbo23]

I didn't assume anything about you, I just said it was immature (in my opinion) not to worry about causing £500 worth of damage.

Have you had a look at the paperwork that you signed? Is it an AST or license?

[Arteta]

Please don't let the section about the party change any of the arguments, that was one event that I was barely a part of and does not justify anything else the landlord has done for the whole year. I want this thread to be about the bigger picture, which is the way we've been treated this year and whether or not I have any rights to refuse payment for some of the services we did not receive.

Also thankyou for helping me discover whether this is actually a licence agreement.
I can't afford a solicitor so this is really helpful.

[robbo23]

Ah your post has just come through.

So the question is...

Is it a license or an AST. I suggest you contact Jeffrey as a private client. He can advise you of your position.

[Arteta]

Ah your post has just come through.

So the question is...

Is it a license or an AST. I suggest you contact Jeffrey as a private client. He can advise you of your position.
I have scanned in the entire contract. I would be insanely grateful if somebody could please skim through it.

[jeffrey]

Agreed Jeremy, should have said told you what you have signed rather than what type of agreement is in force.
Jeremy? Who's that?

[Arteta]

Jeremy? Who's that?
Blame Robbo, I didn't get your name wrong :D

[Snorkerz]

Ah your post has just come through.

So the question is...

Is it a license or an AST. I suggest you contact Jeffrey as a private client. He can advise you of your position.Do you have exclusive use of any areas?
How does your 'agreement' describe your room? (obviously, change identifying bits)

How does one see the agreement you have scanned?

[Arteta]

Do you have exclusive use of any areas?
How does your 'agreement' describe your room? (obviously, change identifying bits)

How does one see the agreement you have scanned?
I don't fully understand what you mean for both questions. The only area that is 'mine' is the bedroom. The rest is all for common use, including 6 bathrooms and 3 kitchenettes available on different floors. Anybody can use any bathroom, even if it's the opposite side of the house.
I think you're best off just seeing the contract.

I will upload them as images separately unless I can manage to create a PDF including all images.
I could either send by e-mail or I could just upload them to somewhere like rapidshare/fileserve so anybody can download.
I have crossed out all important details, I'd rather not post publicly though in-case my landlord gets wise and spots this.
Let me know what you think.

[Snorkerz]

Is there a lock on your bedroom door?

Can you type the exact words from your agreement describing the room (again, the actual words can be changed to protect your privacy) so if our real address was room 223, Hallam Towers, Brentwood, BR4 3RE, you could give this example:

Room 321, Grotty Towers, Anytown, AT1 2AA

I'm not sure you have enough posts to upload images - but if you want me to, you'll find my email by going to my profile and then downloading my v-card.

[Arteta]

Is there a lock on your bedroom door?

Can you type the exact words from your agreement describing the room (again, the actual words can be changed to protect your privacy) so if our real address was room 223, Hallam Towers, Brentwood, BR4 3RE, you could give this example:

Room 321, Grotty Towers, Anytown, AT1 2AA

I'm not sure you have enough posts to upload images - but if you want me to, you'll find my email by going to my profile and then downloading my v-card.
Yes there's a lock on the bedroom door.
Well it just says on the first page:

RELATING TO
Room No. 11

45 Anywhere Street
Anytown
AN1 5HJ
I'll attempt to get your e-mail address now then.

[Snorkerz]

I am pretty sure that if you have exclusive occupation of any area (ie no one else is allowed in there) then it can not be a license. The lock on your door should be enough to show that you do have exclusive occupation of room "11".

If it's not a license, it will almost certainly be an AST


The bottom line is ("family" situations excepted) that if you grant de facto exclusive possession you will create a tenancy,

Schedule 1 of the 1988 Housing Act has a list of the tenancies which can not be ASTs, if its not on this list - it's an AST. The list is too long to copy here - but this is the link - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/schedule/1

I am very very inclined to think you have an AST tenancy, no matter what it says on the paperwork. If I write "beans" on a tin of peas, that doesn't make them beans! If I am right, your deposit should be protected.

It is also my understanding that you can only be held responsible for the areas that you have possession of - therefore damage to communal areas isn't your problem. I know another member had a similar situation with their student sons landlord charging each occupant of a block like yours for a picture that had been nicked from the foyer. I'll try and find that post, or get an update.

[Arteta]

I am pretty sure that if you have exclusive occupation of any area (ie no one else is allowed in there) then it can not be a license. The lock on your door should be enough to show that you do have exclusive occupation of room "11".

If it's not a license, it will almost certainly be an AST



Schedule 1 of the 1988 Housing Act has a list of the tenancies which can not be ASTs, if its not on this list - it's an AST. The list is too long to copy here - but this is the link - **Removed**

I am very very inclined to think you have an AST tenancy, no matter what it says on the paperwork. If I write "beans" on a tin of peas, that doesn't make them beans! If I am right, your deposit should be protected.

It is also my understanding that you can only be held responsible for the areas that you have possession of - therefore damage to communal areas isn't your problem. I know another member had a similar situation with their student sons landlord charging each occupant of a block like yours for a picture that had been nicked from the foyer. I'll try and find that post, or get an update.
I'm sorry but I just do not understand enough of that page to make a decision. This is my first real instance in where I'm trying to read an act.
Thankyou for the information, but I'll need somebody else to determine whether my agreement is a Licence or AST.

If it is an AST then I imagine that changes things massively. Does that mean I don't have to pay for cleaning or any damages outside of my room? Also I can take the company to court for not protecting my deposit?
This could be massive if true. But haven't I agreed in my contract to give the company that amount of money? So even though I may not have to pay for damages outside of the room, I have agreed to pay for an amount that will be consequently used to pay for damages.

[Sad S]

As far as I recall, students in living in university accommodation (including halls of residence) do not have the protection of ASTs - it's one of the exceptions, and they occupy under licence.
Are you a student at a university? Who is your landlord?

A good place to go for advice is your students' union, who will know a lot about local circumstances.

[Arteta]

As far as I recall, students in living in university accommodation (including halls of residence) do not have the protection of ASTs - it's one of the exceptions, and they occupy under licence.
Are you a student at a university? Who is your landlord?

A good place to go for advice is your students' union, who will know a lot about local circumstances.
Yes I'm a student at university, but it is not university owned accommodation, It's private. So I think according to that list it still may be an AST.
I don't want to say the company name because they may find it on Google, but I can e-mail it if you want.
I went to the students union initially and they sent us on to Unipol, an accreditation body for students, and there's an investigation going on currently, but my problems now spill into the legal domain and neither Unipol or the students union can help there.

[Arteta]

I've been given advice from the local government Housing Advice.

The advisor seems to think it is a Licence Agreement because:
- The landlord retains control over the entire premises (I don't think they have access to my room though unless there's an emergency)
- I'm sharing the house with others that are not featured in my contract.
- The landlord provides cleaning services to the common areas of the house.

Can somebody please confirm if it's true? Previous advice has headed towards being an AST, but the advisor doesn't think so.

Apparently I have to pay my rent and then try to claim back through the small claims court. It basically means the company can do whatever they want to me and I have to pay. If the cleaner doesn't want to clean then it's ok, if they take 6 months to fix something then it's also ok, however if I step out of line even once I can be evicted and still have to pay the rest of my contract. It seems that the company can even break the law by not giving me my money back, by the time the courts hear about it I would have been due rent and the money would have been used.

If the small claims court don't work then i'll just have further proof that there is no justice and will push me even further to leave this country forever.

[jeffrey]

The advisor seems to think it is a Licence Agreement because:
[1]- The landlord retains control over the entire premises (I don't think they have access to my room though unless there's an emergency)
[2]- I'm sharing the house with others that are not featured in my contract.
[3]- The landlord provides cleaning services to the common areas of the house.

Can somebody please confirm if it's true? Previous advice has headed towards being an AST, but the advisor doesn't think so.
My counter-arguments would be like this:

1. So what? It would be equally true if you owned a long leasehold and L owned the freehold reversion.
2. So what? It would be equally true if you owned a long leasehold flat and other people owned others.
3. So what? It would be equally true if you owned a long leasehold and L provided 'service charge' services.

Thus you are still able to claim that the letting is an AST, unless L or that 'adviser' has any better ideas!

[Arteta]

My counter-arguments would be like this:

1. So what? It would be equally true if you owned a long leasehold and L owned the freehold reversion.
2. So what? It would be equally true if you owned a long leasehold flat and other people owned others.
3. So what? It would be equally true if you owned a long leasehold and L provided 'service charge' services.

Thus you are still able to claim that the letting is an AST, unless L or that 'adviser' has any better ideas!
Good, i'm glad you're not contributing knowledge to this thread. I now regret such a long first post that deterred some people from bothering.

This advisor may be wrong. I know he had to 'research' before getting back to me. Remember this is a local government advisor and may not have the same knowledge or resources as a private solicitor in property.

Are you absolutely certain it's an AST? I can send you the contract also, it's now compiled into an electronic format. I would be very grateful.

Also what's the next move for me if it is an AST? I will claim for my deposit that wasn't protected, but do I have any right to refuse payments for any damages outside of my exclusive area?

[Snorkerz]

The landlord retains control over the entire premises Not if there is a lock on your door he doesn't - well no more so than an AST in a regular HMO

I'm sharing the house with others that are not featured in my contract.As you could do with an AST in a regular HMO

The landlord provides cleaning services to the common areas of the house.As they would have to with an AST in a regular HMO (section 7(1)(a)
The Management of Houses in Multiple Occupation (England) Regulations 2006)

None of the 3 points raised make a license the only option - as I stated earlier, I am pretty sure it does not fall under any of schedule 1 of the 1988 Housing Act, and if it doesn't it is an AST. Ask your advisor which bit of schedule 1 applies (ie why, in law,it isn't an AST)


Apparently I have to pay my rent and then try to claim back through the small claims court.Yes, you have a contract, if you want to take action because the landlord has breached the contract, you can only do so if a judge agrees with you.


however if I step out of line even once I can be evicted and still have to pay the rest of my contract.That would certainly not be the case if you could prove it was an AST. Tenants can be evicted before the end of their contract - but as above, only if a judge agrees that that is appropriate, and they'd only do so for a serious breach.


It seems that the company can even break the law by not giving me my money back, by the time the courts hear about it I would have been due rent and the money would have been used.ANYONE can break the law, it is up to the victim (civil) or police (criminal) to take action to bring the culprit to justice. It is true that the court process can be slow - but the alternative would be either chaos, or a court infrastructure that the country can not afford - resulting in hugely increased court fees.


If the small claims court don't work then i'll just have further proof that there is no justice and will push me even further to leave this country forever.That would be a shame - you came over as an inteligent person, this comment makes you sound like a baby throwing his toys out of the pram.

[Snorkerz]

Also what's the next move for me if it is an AST? I will claim for my deposit that wasn't protected,see this http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/my_deposit_isn_t_protected/0-4


but do I have any right to refuse payments for any damages outside of my exclusive area?
Yes - what will happen is one of 2 things - you can refuse to pay, and they will have to sue you - you then argue the legalities in court (if they bother to sue)

Or; they take the money from your deposit, and you sue for it's return (and any other deductions they may have already made).

I have read your 'license agreement' and I think the use of the words 'demised premises' also indicates that you have exclusive occupation of your room. I also believe that if you have exclusive occupation of your room, it can not be a license. However, I'd really like Jeffrey or Lawcruncher (or other legal eagle) to confirm if my opinion is right.

[Arteta]

see this http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/my_deposit_isn_t_protected/0-4


Yes - what will happen is one of 2 things - you can refuse to pay, and they will have to sue you - you then argue the legalities in court (if they bother to sue)

Or; they take the money from your deposit, and you sue for it's return (and any other deductions they may have already made).
Thankyou very much for your comments. I certainly owe you. Unfortunately I have further questions.

1. Which one would you recommend out of the two? Option 1 would be better at the moment because I could really do with the money right now whilst i'm still studying, later on I should have money, besides I have no money to sue them with as I can't afford a solicitor at this point in my life.

1. Should the retrieval of my deposit go separately to my other problems?
I've just written a letter (due to be revised) to go to my landlord. It's very long though as it's also a complaint. I'm hoping it'll inform him of all of the house problems and consequently lead to the punishment of his staff. This letter is 5 pages long. It's possible I could send a complaint separate to both the deposit and the reimbursement cases.

2. The link you posted me advises that I give him 14 days to give it back - is this necessary? If I do this I may get £250 back, whereas if I just proceed then I'll get £1,000.

3. Does that mean I can refuse paying for the cleaning services? Even my entire service charge of £17 per week?
It sounds too good to be true, afterall I agreed to pay them a certain amount of money, it's up to them whether the money goes towards damages or not.
I personally have not damaged anything (to my knowledge) and if I could evade the whole thing it would be amazing.

The only problem is that I've already paid the first 3 rent periods, and the upcoming period is the final one. If I were to evade many costs I'd have to deduct from this next payment what i've already paid in the others.

Sorry for the questions. I like to be thorough. Also sorry for letting you down, to be honest my mind is made up about leaving the UK, the culture and weather has made up my mind. I know that we have a very good legal system and the citizens are protected, but at the same time I tend to hear only negative things about the law, not to mention that this is my first ever real encounter with a legal dispute and it's proved to be very tricky, with many pitfalls. Now I understand why lawyers are so well paid (although it was partly obvious earlier). Maybe it is throwing toys out of the pram, but after relatively few positive stories coming my way in regards to the law it's hard to stay positive.

[Snorkerz]

1. Which one would you recommend out of the two? You won't have the choice - as the landlord currently holds your deposit, number 2 is almost certainly what will happen.


1. Should the retrieval of my deposit go separately to my other problems?
I've just written a letter (due to be revised) to go to my landlord. It's very long though as it's also a complaint. I'm hoping it'll inform him of all of the house problems and consequently lead to the punishment of his staff. This letter is 5 pages long. It's possible I could send a complaint separate to both the deposit and the reimbursement cases.Too long. Give just the main details as they won't fully understand all that in one go - it's human nature. Don't worry about staff being punished. That is out of your control, you have no contract with the staff.

At this stage, I would keep the deposit protection separate from the house complaints, but they can be combined if it gets to court cases.


The link you posted me advises that I give him 14 days to give it back - is this necessary? If I do this I may get £250 back, whereas if I just proceed then I'll get £1,000.That is a big assumption that you will get £1k. If I were your landlord, I could get out of that easily, if they put their brains in gear, they could too. You do have to serve a ltter before action - a primary part of the 'Civil Proceedure Rules' is that both parties should try and resolve this before bringing it to court (because, as you have discovered, the courts are incredibly busy) - failing to do so could have your case thrown out, and you don't get your £250. The letter before action is your proof that you have attempted to resolve this amicably.


3. Does that mean I can refuse paying for the cleaning services? Even my entire service charge of £17 per week?No, the landlord as an obligation to maintain and clean the property, that does not prevent him charging you for the service - in pretty much he same way as we have to pay council tax because the council are obliged to empty the bins.

[Arteta]

You won't have the choice - as the landlord currently holds your deposit, number 2 is almost certainly what will happen.
Yes but I haven't paid my last rent period yet. I could withhold most of it and let them sue me? Or will this appear negative in the courts and strip me of everything?


Too long. Give just the main details as they won't fully understand all that in one go - it's human nature. Don't worry about staff being punished. That is out of your control, you have no contract with the staff.
Well you're probably right about me confusing, I did that on the first page of this thread. I'll cut it down to just the facts. The original point of the letter was to try and win the owners a little bit, he's only ever hearing about the bad things we do, he's getting a one sided story and I wanted to just tell our side and the bad experiences we've had. I was hoping that he doesn't know everything and that his staff are just trying to keep him happy, if I could expose the situation then he might punish his staff, which in my opinion deserve it. He might also offer us compensation if he knows just how bad we've had things. I wanted to ask what he would have done if he was getting such a service? I want him to understand.


At this stage, I would keep the deposit protection separate from the house complaints, but they can be combined if it gets to court cases.
Do I copy the letter from the link exactly, or do I have to explain that it's not a licence agreement?


No, the landlord as an obligation to maintain and clean the property, that does not prevent him charging you for the service - in pretty much he same way as we have to pay council tax because the council are obliged to empty the bins.
Ok, this is where it gets messy. I have agreed to pay the landlord the weekly service charge, some of it goes on cleaning and some of it on damages, however they see fit as it's just a pool of money to them. So I have to pay for services such as bins, electricity, water, cleaning but I DO NOT have to pay for any damages? This will be hard to discover how much is going towards services and how much is damages, especially when they do not provide a full list of damages. I have last years 'end-of-year' report and they literally put things like "Invoice 158 - £300", "Hilarys Blinds 4463757 - £600". We get no more information than that.
The advisor told me it's ok under a licence agreement to do that.

[Snorkerz]

Yes but I haven't paid my last rent period yet. I could withhold most of it and let them sue me? Or will this appear negative in the courts and strip me of everything?I may not show you in your best light, but it wouldn't - as you put it - strip you of everything.


Do I copy the letter from the link exactly, or do I have to explain that it's not a licence agreement? Maybe change the 2nd paragraph along the lines of:

The Housing Act 2004 introduced the concept of "Tenancy Deposit Protection" and obliges private landlords to protect/register AST tenancy deposits with one of 3 approved schemes. Despite its claims to be a license, my agreement forms an assured shorthold tenancy as defined in section 1(1) of the 1988 Housing Act (as amended).

[Arteta]

I may not show you in your best light, but it wouldn't - as you put it - strip you of everything.

Maybe change the 2nd paragraph along the lines of:

The Housing Act 2004 introduced the concept of "Tenancy Deposit Protection" and obliges private landlords to protect/register AST tenancy deposits with one of 3 approved schemes. Despite its claims to be a license, my agreement forms an assured shorthold tenancy as defined in section 1(1) of the 1988 Housing Act (as amended).
Thankyou for the edit.

Well the company has kept my money illegally, so if I keep their and wait for them to sue me then surely it's equal?

[Snorkerz]

Thankyou for the edit.

Well the company has kept my money illegally, so if I keep their and wait for them to sue me then surely it's equal?Not really, because you can't make the statement in bold until a judge makes that decision. However, I know where you are coming from. Two wrongs don't make a right though.

Of course, not paying rent may result in eviction.

Edit: Just to be pedantic, in this situation it would be unlawful, not illegal.

[Arteta]

Well actually I'm only going to be here for another 2 months, so they haven't got long left to evict me, plus they have to give me notice. I reckon i'll be out before they evict me.

I'll have to think about things, though i'll most likely pay the full rent to please the court. Then I'll take the company for as much as I can.
If I didn't include anything about the licence agreement being a tenancy in the request for the deposit, they're more likely to ignore my request, but then in court would they get 'let off' for thinking it's a licence agreement because I didn't tell them that it's not?
This way i'm more likely to get the £1,000 instead of the £250.

[jta]

Snorky.

Just a thought! As OP says, if he's only there for a couple of months then the LL does not have time to evict him, if, as seems possible, it is an AST then it would be to the OP's advantage to say nothing until his tenancy has finished. There would be no chance of the LL doing a 'late protection' then. What d'ya think?

[Arteta]

Snorky.

Just a thought! As OP says, if he's only there for a couple of months then the LL does not have time to evict him, if, as seems possible, it is an AST then it would be to the OP's advantage to say nothing until his tenancy has finished. There would be no chance of the LL doing a 'late protection' then. What d'ya think?

I thought you had 2 weeks to protect the deposit. So surely he's already too late?

[Snorkerz]

Snorky.

Just a thought! As OP says, if he's only there for a couple of months then the LL does not have time to evict him, if, as seems possible, it is an AST then it would be to the OP's advantage to say nothing until his tenancy has finished. There would be no chance of the LL doing a 'late protection' then. What d'ya think?Depends on the outcome of Potts v Densley & Pays.


I thought you had 2 weeks to protect the deposit. So surely he's already too late?Yes, but so long as the landlord gets it protected during the tenancy AND before the court hearing, the 3x penalty will not apply. The case above will decide if a landlord can protect the deposit after the end of the tenancy and still avoid 3x.

[Arteta]

Depends on the outcome of Potts v Densley & Pays.

Yes, but so long as the landlord gets it protected during the tenancy AND before the court hearing, the 3x penalty will not apply. The case above will decide if a landlord can protect the deposit after the end of the tenancy and still avoid 3x.
So what are you saying?
Don't send them any letter until the end of the tenancy?

[Arteta]

I have a new situation.
A few house mates are adamant they want to withhold £90 for the lack of internet we've had for the year out of the rent due in 2 weeks, as well as the £250 deposit. This means £340 per person. We may have as many as 35 people willing to do this. This will mean the company will get £11,900 less than they expected.

What are your thoughts on this? Dangerous ground?

If a lot of us can do it will they really take all of us to court?
If we just withhold £90 then they'll take it out of our deposits, so we have to take our deposits also and tell them to keep ours.