tenants argue in HMO and Hate Crime

[HMO Landlord]

Hi all.

Was just after some feedback on how to deal with tenants that hate each other.

I've a few HMO's that i always act as a bit of a father figure for all in the houses. Arguments erupt between the tenants and to such a degree that they get me involved. Now don't get me wrong, i do actually really care about these people but have got to a stage where i just cannot put up with it anymore. (No comments such as...you're in the wrong business).

I have discovered the hard way that you give an inch and they take it and deduct it from the next five miles that they are expecting. (see what i did there, trying to be all clever). Ok i was referring to the give an inch, expect a mile saying of old.

Today i had a tenant telling me that he couldn't believe that i wouldn't organise a meeting and sit in as a mediator to solve some hate issues that are in the shared house. I guess this is my own fault as i usually go way out of my way to help.

Here is a little background on his argument.
Person 1 is Homosexual, noisy and very dirty around the house but is a very pleasant person in 20's
Person 2 seems homophobic and very clean around the house but is very aggressive in 20's

According to person 1, person 2 has been threatening and writing abusive comments regarding sexuality on mirrors etc about person 1. According to person 1, person 2 has been stealing items from person 1. But i have no first hand knowledge of these things as i don't live there.

Now i believe this to be a hate crime and have put up posters in the house stating Hate Crime is illegal etc. (invites to any legal persons on this matter....Jeffers perhaps)

Person 1 told me he would leave if i didn't sort it out. At this point i offered him alternative accommodation in two different houses (both very nice houses) but he turned me down and said he doesn't want a shared house again. So i offered him a choice of two flats and he said no he wants me to sort out the existing household problem or he will move out.

I do not want to get more involved like in the past and am wondering just how far some of you persons would go to keep the peace in a house such as this, or legally must i get involved?

[midlandslandlord]

Hi all.

Was just after some feedback on how to deal with tenants that hate each other.

...

I do not want to get more involved like in the past and am wondering just how far some of you persons would go to keep the peace in a house such as this, or legally must i get involved?

OK - a forthright view. My quick reaction is that you've put one foot into a quicksand, and you'd be better taking it out again before you vanish bodily.

If it's "hate crime", then it's been turned into a police matter by recent laws, and I'd stay well away - as you could end up having various allegations (the usual harrassment and unlawful eviction, but also discriminination and heaven knows what else) levelled against you by one or both parties.

It's all grey areas, and - no matter which tenant it is - the grey areas of the law belong to the tenants and imo you're cruising for a bruising, despite the fact that you don't deserve it !

I'd say the line not to be crossed as a LL is between potentially civil matters and potentially criminal matters. But would Council TROs arbitrate or know someone who would?

How to deal with it? The general principle must surely be that they are entitled to the (not very) quiet (lack of) enjoyment of their property, and I don't think that an HMO manager has a mandated pastoral role. I think you've probably been more than generous in offering alternatives, so perhaps leave one or other to leave or take up the offer - can you make the same offer to both?

My 2p.

MTG?

ML

[HMO Landlord]

If it's "hate crime", then it's been turned into a police matter by recent laws, and I'd stay well away - as you could end up having various allegations (the usual harrassment and unlawful eviction, but also discriminination and heaven knows what else) levelled against you by one or both parties.



Thanks ML. That's a very good point. I did consider the fact that one of the tenants may feel that i could be biased towards the other etc and would take offence. But i didn't even consider that from a legal point of view, for e.g. getting accused of discrimination.

I'll look into TRO's too.

BTW what's MTG? :-)

[jeffrey]

what's MTG?
Mind
the
gap
(an LZ member who may wish to express her views on this topic).

[HMO Landlord]

Mind
the
gap
(an LZ member who may wish to express her views on this topic).

Ahh i see. Have seen the name several times. Thx.

[mind the gap]

My 2p.

MTG?

ML

I agree with your 2p, ML!

It is not the HMO LL's job to sort out disputes between tenants, especially legal disputes, although in practice I'm sure many do try to help resolve less serious issues where they can, especially where the Ts are young and inexperienced at the business of sharing with others who aren't family.

In my early years as a student LL I think we must have been too nice to our Ts, as they seemed to treat us as a mate/unpaid counsellor/general dogsbody and as ML suggests, you have to step back from that and keep the relationship amicable but professional. We have had phone calls at 4 a.m. saying the toilet won't flush, phone calls at mignight saying X is making bitchy comments about Y outside my door, he is smoking weed in the garden, Z won't do her share of the cleaning, so and so's bedroom smells...it gets silly.

If one of your Ts is acting unlawfully, then the others must report it to the police and let them deal with it. If one of them decides to move out as a result, then s/he must give proper notice. You should only really step in if you think there is sufficient ground to evict on using section 8 ground 14 (anti-social behaviour). Has it come to that?

The situation is slightly different if they are all on separate ASTs compared with being on a joint one, but the principle is the same.

[HMO Landlord]

I agree with your 2p, ML!

In my early years as a student LL I think we must have been too nice to our Ts, as they seemed to treat us as a mate/unpaid counsellor/general dogsbody and as ML suggests, you have to step back from that and keep the relationship amicable but professional. We have had phone calls at 4 a.m. saying the toilet won't flush, phone calls at mignight saying X is making bitchy comments about Y outside my door, he is smoking weed in the garden, Z won't do her share of the cleaning, so and so's bedroom smells...it gets silly.

The situation is slightly different if they are all on separate ASTs compared with being on a joint one, but the principle is the same.

Yep, yep, yep, yep yep iv'e had all these too. Strange, it seems that it doesn't matter where in the world you are, people are still people with the same problems. Thx for sharing your experiences, it does help.

Actually they are on individual tenancy agreements.

[HMO Landlord]

Well all seemed ok until a few days ago:

3 of the other tenants complained that the person 2 from original post was throwing away their unwashed knives and forks. Then two of the tenants complained that person 2 was smoking cannabis. Although i believe none of them will give a statement to the police.

Well i reported the cannabis to the police to cover my own back. Yes it is illegal to smoke or share with friends in your own home.

then last night:
Person 2 punched his girlfriend and then proceeded to punch person 1 from the original post as he came into the hall to see what was going on.

Person 2 got taken to the cells for the night.

Now for everyones benefit i need to get this unhinged person away from other people in the house before any more harm is done.

I've sent him a message saying that he obviously can't continue to live there anymore (he's probably still in the cell) so iv'e not heard anything back. So am wondering what anyone would suggest to get him out asap. He also quite randomly told me that he was an arsonist in his past, bragged about it a few months back. So i am very concerned for others in the house.

Now he's been carted away is that a criminal offence and could i simply fill in court forms for eviction WITHOUT issuing a section 8?

A bit more info:
He was my third ever tenant before i understood how important the LEGAL document side of the business was. I was more up on the safety side at the time. 2 months rent in advance (no deposit). Never had a tenancy agreement, been in the house about two years. I guess i need to not charge him rent for the next month so that it is not seen as a deposit. (which it never was).

[mind the gap]

Serve a section 8 Notice Requiring Possession citing ground 14 (anti-social behaviour). This allows you to apply immediately for a court order for possession. It will take a few weeks for the hearing to be allocated - you cannot however just throw his stuff out on the street, of course.

In the meantime, if you think he poses a serious threat to the safety of the remaining tenants, I believe you can get an injunction to prevent him from coming into the property. I am not sure how you do that, but I expect someone on the forum will know.

[Snorkerz]

I've sent him a message saying that he obviously can't continue to live there anymore (he's probably still in the cell) so iv'e not heard anything back. So am wondering what anyone would suggest to get him out asap. He also quite randomly told me that he was an arsonist in his past, bragged about it a few months back. So i am very concerned for others in the house.As MTG says, you can apply for a s8 under g14
you (more likely your other tenants) can apply for an injunction
BUT, you CAN'T deny him access to his home without one of those 2, to do so would be illegal eviction. I am concened that you have put that statement in a text.

[midlandslandlord]

Serve a section 8 Notice Requiring Possession citing ground 14 (anti-social behaviour). This allows you to apply immediately for a court order for possession. It will take a few weeks for the hearing to be allocated - you cannot however just throw his stuff out on the street, of course.

In the meantime, if you think he poses a serious threat to the safety of the remaining tenants, I believe you can get an injunction to prevent him from coming into the property. I am not sure how you do that, but I expect someone on the forum will know.

I think that interim action (court order's etc) is probably down to Ts not to you, while the eviction action is down to you.

If GF is also your tenant, then she can look at Exclusion Orders. Or if you are in Manchester, Wiltshire or West Mercia, they may be able to use one of the summary "eviction for 48 hours" police "go" orders, which are aimed at domestic violence.

In this situation what is the legal position if the front door lock is changed by the other tenants for their own safety (not by LL)?

ML

[HMO Landlord]

I am concened that you have put that statement in a text.

Thank you all for your quick replies. Yes i'll keep it legal.

The text message i sent him actually says he will need to leave asap rather than he can't live there anymore. But i see what you mean after reading my number 8 post.

I think if the tenants changed the lock the door would probably never open again...DIY is not there skill but it's an interesting thought.

Update:
He just phoned and denies everything and says it was all self defence. That he doesn't even smoke. That he wouldn't steal things. And why is he being targeted by everyone. Oh my....anyone want to buy an HMO.

[HMO Landlord]

Update 2:
GF has moved out for a week only, as she was recommended to by the police.