New HMO- what regulations apply?

[sparrow]

Hello all! I have a few questions to which i don't seem to be able to get reliable answers. I have spoken to the council, the HMO licensing bods at the council, someone specifically involved with private lettings at the council, 2 estate agents and the guy that came to do the EPC and all have said something different!

So, i let out properties in Scotland. One is classed as an HMO up there although is only three beds. I have to have a licence and yearly gas check,3 yearly PAT testing, 3 yearly electrical test on the property, a fire extinguisher and blanket which require yearly testing and door closers as well as mains connected smoke alarms.

Now i wish to let out a property in England which is 3 beds over 3 storeys. It doesn't have gas. I already have and EPC but i wondered what, if anything else am i required to do by law and what is optional but most good landlords would do?

Also I know there is an issue with deposits in England. Which scheme is the best to use?


Thanks

[jeffrey]

Disregard Scottish lets, for this purpose. You already know that law is different in E&W.
There are very many matters of which to be aware- too many to summarise here. Try looking through some of the more generic threads on RES. LETTINGS, to see what problems can occur and how best to avoid/minimise them.

[Scrungy]

Now i wish to let out a property in England which is 3 beds over 3 storeys.

Ignore the bods at estate agents and "someone in the council to do with lettings".
Focus on what the HMO department at the council tell you, which will be in writing and they are your only authority in this respect.

They may instruct you to carry out certain works depending on what they see, the type of property, design ,etc.

[sparrow]

Thank you both. I spoke to the HMO section within the council who said that i didn't require a licence and so he referred me to the general letting guy---who was no help.

What do i legally have to have done before i let my flat?

[bhaal]

How many individuals are you planning to let this property to and would you think they'd be related usually (ie are you planning to let to students or families?)

[sparrow]

3 people most likely unrelated.

[midlandslandlord]

I spoke to the HMO section within the council who said that i didn't require a licence and so he referred me to the general letting guy---who was no help.


3 people most likely unrelated.

At the very least you need the Council statement in writing. It may also be potentially different for each Council you deal with.

Getting it wrong is potentially criminal record territory.

I think that there are various courses around, including ones by Councils about their own innovations in this area.

ML

[sparrow]

Just spoken to the HMO dept again today and they now say that the property is an HMO as its over 3 floors but it doesnt require a licence as less then 6 people will be sharing.

I asked specifically about smoke alarms, portable appliance testing and periodic inspection report. They said it was not legally required but i could be prosecuted if they asked for the periodic inspection report and it hadn't been done. I don't understand this??? Also they said the portable appliance testing was required yearly but last time they said it wasnt required. Also i was planning to have smoke alarms fitted but not in the kitchen. Last time the gentleman said it was advisable but not required, this time they said i needed them in the kitchen also and fireproofing of the doors.

Is there any internet site that would have the correct information. The council aren't keen to put anything in writing.

[midlandslandlord]

I'm not sure what the state of play is in Scotland wrt HMOs, though from my limited reading they seem to have a greater standardisation than in England but are not yet as advanced in rolling out the HMO schemes, however one *very* important thing is to get your process and actions recorded so that you have a rationale and history for your actions. That alone will reduce chances of being trampled on by officialdom.



The council aren't keen to put anything in writing.


I bet they're not keen! Driving home my point...

When you have decided what you are going to do, put the things you are doing in writing to the Council with the stated sources of advice and the names of the officers who said it, with Certificates of Posting etc.

For record keeping, treat it like a "put it all in writing" dispute, and create a paper trail so that there is a record.

If later they decide to prosecute you either way (depending on which of the opinions they express is the one they want to make the public one, or if they get their head together), then you will have a defence.

The Scottish Landlords Association (whatever it is called) may be able to help.

ML

[mind the gap]

Now i wish to let out a property in England which is 3 beds over 3 storeys. It doesn't have gas. I already have and EPC but i wondered what, if anything else am i required to do by law and what is optional but most good landlords would do?

Also I know there is an issue with deposits in England. Which scheme is the best to use?


Thanks

Your property is definitely an HMO, as it will house 3 unrelated sharers.

Now, 3 beds over 3 storeys in England is not covered by mandatory HMO licensing but may be subject to additional HMO licensing by your local council, which is presumably why the person at the council mentioned the 3 storeys.

I recommend the DPS for deposit protection - free and simple to use.

If you do need a licence, your council will issue you with chapter and verse about what you must have in place before you and the property qualify.

Otherwise, as well as the EPC, you need by law to be satisfied the property is electrically safe (in practice, this means get an electrical safety cert too).

You also need to supply your Ts with an address for yourself in England or Wales at which notices etc., may be served.

Good LLs supply the Ts with written instructions as to how everything works in the property and phone numbers for emergency repairs.

Will it be let furnished or unfurnished?

[sparrow]

It seems much more difficult to know exactly what is needed in England as there appear to be no written rules and no one will give a direct answer. I have established that i do not need a licence. I will get a PIR for the electricals and it looks from what i can find online that i need to have this done every 5 years in England. Does this sound right? I'm not sure if i'm meant to have portable appliance testing carried out or if so how frequently this is required.

Also although the property is only over 2 floors itself, it comprises of the 1st and second storeys of the building so i'm thinking there might be some issues with fire regulations. I'm thinking mains wired smoke alarms in each room just because i think its a good idea and probably self closing doors (rubbish idea as they get wedged open but would be open to criticism if i didn't have them). I've also purchased a fire blanket and extinguisher as i need these for the Scottish flat and again i think these are useful.

What i don't know is whether i need fire doors (30 or 60mins) with intumescent strips and which doors would need to be replaced.

I'm sure there must be some guidance somewhere, i just don't know where to look. I would have thought the council would have a fire officer but the don't seem to.

MTG the flat is furnished.

[mind the gap]

It seems much more difficult to know exactly what is needed in England as there appear to be no written rules and no one will give a direct answer.

Which local council is this?

[sparrow]

Same place you have your flat MTG. There are rules for HMO licencing but nothing for those which don't require one.

[mind the gap]

Same place you have your flat MTG. There are rules for HMO licencing but nothing for those which don't require one.
So is your concern simply to provide accommodation which is practical/safe for your tenants, or are you worried there might be 'hidden' legal requirements which will come back and bite you on the bum?

[sparrow]

I currently live in the property i wish to rent out so i already know that it is safe and practical. I wouldn't never rent out a property which i felt was unsafe/that i wouldn't feel was safe enough for me to live in myself. However i also want to ensure my property complies with all the regulations as i don't want to miss something which i should know about. For example, i wouldn't fit door closers to my own doors or replace them with fire doors and i don't particularly want to do that to this property in order to rent it out. People disconnect door closers or wedge the doors open and in time the doors become warped as a result of this. However if this is a legal requirement then i will carry out the work. I just need to know what is required.

[mind the gap]

I currently live in the property i wish to rent out so i already know that it is safe and practical. I wouldn't never rent out a property which i felt was unsafe/that i wouldn't feel was safe enough for me to live in myself. However i also want to ensure my property complies with all the regulations as i don't want to miss something which i should know about. For example, i wouldn't fit door closers to my own doors or replace them with fire doors and i don't particularly want to do that to this property in order to rent it out. People disconnect door closers or wedge the doors open and in time the doors become warped as a result of this. However if this is a legal requirement then i will carry out the work. I just need to know what is required.

I wasn't suggesting for a minute that you would let out an unsafe property, don't worry!

It seems perverse of the council not to have the information readily available. This thread might be useful, though:

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?28616-Extra-fire-safety-measures-for-HMO&

It suggests getting the HMO dept in to inspect the property...failing that, the Fire Service are very helpful, too.

[HMO Landlord]

The advice from the others here is very good. (i'll probably just reinforce there advice) and you have mentioned a lot of what you need....fire extinguishers ect.

The council who deals with HMO's should be able to send out a pack of written info as it differs from council to council.

I would as a matter of course (no matter what council) get the hardwired and interconnected smoke alarms/sensors fitted (they need to have 9volt battery backup too if you are not going to live in the house), but definitely get one fitted in the kitchen too. Its the highest risk area. The kitchen sensor should be a heat sensor and not a optical or ionisation sensor this will save on false alarms.

Fire doors, If its residential in lincolnshire (where i am) then they are usuall FD30's. You can upgrade your existing doors with intumescent paint and a little extra wood but it will cost more than fitting new doors. (specialist company only). Dont forget 30min smoke seals in the frame or door. (fire doors and frames are great for sound insulation too). Door frames should also meet the same fire protection time as the doors.

Door Closers, if you don't need them on all doors (according to your council), i would recommend putting them on kitchen and all communal doors. This way escape routes should be protected as majority of people usually keep their bedroom doors closed anyway.

Change all the door locks on bedroom doors to quick release. They unlock from the outside with a key but open from the inside with a turn of a knob. Your escape (front door, back door) should be the same. Imagine 3 people in a panic running downstairs only to realise they left the keys to escape in the burning rooms, they could be trapped.

Do you have the correct glass in windows? Find out if it need to be safety glass! Glass merchants will know.

Google health and safety risk assessment (should cover environmental health too) from the government...its the law. And keep records.

When i started renting HMO's these were all annoying Health and Safety legalities which i didn't want. Now i can't sleep if i find out a smoke alarm doesn't work or a fire blanket has gone missing, so it's replaced as soon as possible. I lived in the houses whilst bringing them up to specification, keeping risks to a minimum.

There is another way at looking at it.....you could keep this building for years to come (so it's a business) and you can move into your next house and have peace of mind that this one is running as safe as it can. It's also easier to do the work now whilst you are around than to fill it with tenants and try to get the jobs done.

Information is so difficult to find so i hope my recommendations will help. Even if your council doesn't require such things, they could still save lives......and also costs in the long run too.

[HMO Landlord]

Oh forgot...i use My Deposits.co.uk to keep the deposits in.

[midlandslandlord]

I'm thinking mains wired smoke alarms in each room just because i think its a good idea and probably self closing doors (rubbish idea as they get wedged open but would be open to criticism if i didn't have them).


My understanding was that Fire Extinguishers were no longer a requirement (could be wrong), but if they were there you had to arrange for occupants to be trained. I could be wrong as I do not do HMOs myself yet.

I'd take a VERY serious look at a sprinkler system if refurbishing seriously as they are the most reliable fire suppression method, and are automatic.

The most important things really are being well-informed (and I admire your persistence) and detailed conversations with the Council - some are good, whereas Blackburn seem to be bonkers.

ML

[sparrow]

Thanks everyone! I am a bit clearer now as to what i am going to do. Midlandslandlord, i can't believe how persistant i have had to be to drag information out of the council. You would think they would want to help when someone is keen to be a safe landlord! I find it very strange that there are no guidelines for such matters.

What i also find odd is that only when an HMO requires a licence are there any rules. What about houses rented to families with young children, or smaller HMOs? Why aren't fire alarms etc mandatory for such properties? I would imagine 6 young men and women would have a better chance of escaping from a burning building than 3 young children for instance.

So basically, i am going to put fire doors with intumescent strips and door closers on bedroom, kitchen and living room and also possibly hot water tank cupboard as its right outside the two 2nd floor bedroom doors on the landing (fire officer recommended this). I'm having a heat detector fitted in the kitchen and smoke aralms in the bedrooms and 2 in hallway (one on 1st floor and one on 2nd floor) - all mains connected. I have purchased a fire blanket and an extinguisher. I have an electrician waiting to do a periodic inspection report and portable appliance testing. I dont have gas so CP12 is not needed and i have an energy performance certificate.

I'm not going to install a full sprinkler system as the flat is aready refurbished, i just want to bring it to a safe standard for renting. Also they are very expensive. I don't have locks on the bedroom doors as i think it might affect the type of contract the tenants could have. I looked into this for the Scottish flat and was advised to remove the locks.

Thanks for all your help. I hope i haven't missed anything!

[red40]

What i also find odd is that only when an HMO requires a licence are there any rules. What about houses rented to families with young children, or smaller HMOs?

HMO regs apply once it becomesa HMO, regardless if its licensable or not. The Housing Health and Safety Rating System applies to any residential property, which will include owner occupiers, rented house and HMO's

HTH