Guests of HMO tenants

[IronsE11]

Can a HMO landlord prevent their tenant from having visitors or overnight guests if there is no reference made to the issue in the tenancy agreement?

My partner is a HMO tenant and I occasionally stay at the property. The maximum I have stayed there for is 2 consecutive nights. I do not pay any rent (I.e. My partner is not subletting the property).

In the last week, the landlord has been present at the property for up to 6 hours a day, walking the hallways and sitting in the kitchen. I have been informed that she put a note out informing the tenants that any visits from guests must be logged with her beorehand! It seems clear that the landlord is paranoid about the room being sublet and so is spending a disproportionate amount of time at the property to ensure this is not the case.

As a landlord myself, I find this behaviour totally bizarre and possibly unlawful. The tenancy agreement states that the tenant should be able to enjoy quiet use of the property, and that the landlord can inspect at reasonable hours during the day. There is no mention of guests! Surely the landlord's behaviour, time spent at the property and time of day this occurs at is a breach of the terms of the agreement (on Saturday the landlord was at the property from 6pm to 11:30pm!).

Can the landlord legally impose this sort of restriction?

Thanks in advance for any help on this issue.

[jeffrey]

If the hallway and kitchen are not part of anyone's tenancy, what do you claim to be wrong with L's conduct?

[IronsE11]

I'm not sure what the legal implication of casing the comunal hallways and kitchen for 6 hours a day/night is, but I find it very strange behaviour.

Informing the tenant that they can not have overnight guests or even visitors without her prior consent (when this is not stated in the tenancy agreement) is surely uninforceable?

The note left this morning threatens legal action if the above is not complied with!

Aside from this, there are other issues which suggest the landlord is not in a fit state of mind. Suffice to say, my partner is looking for another place to rent, I just want to know where we stand in the mean time. The last tenant of the room was accused of subletting and found some of his belongings disposed with!

[jeffrey]

Informing the tenant that they can not have overnight guests or even visitors without her prior consent (when this is not stated in the tenancy agreement) is surely unEnforceable?
Yes. Only what the Letting Agreement stipulates is enforceable; new rules cannot be added on a whim.

[IronsE11]

Thank you very much jeffrey.

I will ask my partner to write to her landlord informing her of this. I presume any action taken to evict my partner as a result would be unlawful, as the terms of the tenancy agreement have not been breached as a result of my occasional presence.

Unfortunately it doesn't appear as though we can do much about the L/L's continued presence in the property for large periods of the day/night as it is only in the communal areas. I do however find this behaviour strange and unreasonable, and I know it is disconcerting for a couple of the other tenants.

As an aside, I noticed there is no HMO certificate displayed in the property, and the L/L only accepts rent payment in cash. Do you think this could be an indication that the L/L does not have the required license or is trying to avoid paying tax on her rental income?

I only ask because I have feeling this could get messy.

[mind the gap]

As an aside, I noticed there is no HMO certificate displayed in the property, and the L/L only accepts rent payment in cash. Do you think this could be an indication that the L/L does not have the required license or is trying to avoid paying tax on her rental income?

I only ask because I have feeling this could get messy.

Ring your local council (housing or HMO dept), tell them the address of the property and they will telll you whether it is a licensed HMO. If it isn't and you describe the set-up (How many floors? How may unrelated sharers?), they will tell you whether it should be licensed.

Any cash payments for rent should only be handed over in exchange for a signed receipt.

[IronsE11]

Many thanks.

[IronsE11]

what do you claim to be wrong with L's conduct?

Wow, I've just seen the letter from the Landlord (her English not mine):

Serious Notice to all Tenants in the House.

All tenant must report to the landlord if they bring anybody in the house. If Landlord find out the Tenants broke the rules serious action will be taken against Tenants immediately and it could end up in court and will be kick out of the house straight away. No overnight staying and sleeping without landlord permission. If the management find out the Tenants let people staying overnight with no permission we taking the matter as subletting (that tenant will be out immediately). The management is watching the house 24 hours. Any suspicious tenants room will be checked and inspect by the management for evidence and proof.

I am drafting a letter to the landlord highlighting how many breaches of the TA this constitutes but I have a feeling that my partner's belongings are going to end up on the street! This women is clearly not right in the head! My partner is currently looking for alternative accommodation.

I'm calling up the Local Authority tomorrow and I pray (that as I suspect) she is not HMO registered. The resulting fine will be our parting gift.

[Snorkerz]

I presume any action taken to evict my partner as a result would be unlawful,No, not if it is done under section 21 of the 1988 Housing Act.

You might want to follow some of the advice on this page to prepare yourself incase your partner is illegally evicted. http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/illegal_eviction/0-22

[byterider]

I have a feeling the OP would be more than happy if a s21 was issued as this would give an appropriate amount of time to get new accommodation lined up. It seems to me that the LL probably doesn't even know what a s21 is and that her idea of eviction might not exactly fall within the law.

OP, where is your partner's HMO based?

Just to finish with in my AST I have a a few clauses relating to guests:

1) Tenants are allowed guests but if it is for more than 2 nights then I must be informed an agree to it.

2) All other housemates must be informed and introduced to the guest.

3) If the guest is causing problems the other housemates have the right to ask them to leave without being challenged.

(These are not the exact wordings as I don't have a copy of my AST with me at present)

[IronsE11]

No, not if it is done under section 21 of the 1988 Housing Act.

You might want to follow some of the advice on this page to prepare yourself incase your partner is illegally evicted. http://tenancyanswers.ucoz.com/index/illegal_eviction/0-22

Thanks for the information.

The AST runs until May, so I presume that the landlord can not issue a Section 8 notice as my partner has not broken the terms of the AST? My partner will be long gone by then, and as the LL has already breached the terms of the AST (she has already entered her room without permission amongst various other things) I presume the agreement can be terminated by my partner prior to May? I am currently looking in to the correct process for initiating this. I presume a letter must be sent to the LL infomring them of said breaches?


I have a feeling the OP would be more than happy if a s21 was issued as this would give an appropriate amount of time to get new accommodation lined up. It seems to me that the LL probably doesn't even know what a s21 is and that her idea of eviction might not exactly fall within the law.

OP, where is your partner's HMO based?

Just to finish with in my AST I have a a few clauses relating to guests:

1) Tenants are allowed guests but if it is for more than 2 nights then I must be informed an agree to it.

2) All other housemates must be informed and introduced to the guest.

3) If the guest is causing problems the other housemates have the right to ask them to leave without being challenged.

(These are not the exact wordings as I don't have a copy of my AST with me at present)

You're right. As explained before, my partner will be long gone before any notice to quit period is issued, however she does not want to be legally liable for rent payments until May and so she is eager to go down the corect path in regards to terminating the agreement.

The HMO is in Tower Hamlets (Isle of Dogs) London. I have called the LA and the property is not HMO registered. The LA are aware it is a HMO and a visit from an inspection officer is pending. I really hope they nail her.

I think your rules regarding guests are reasonable. I get on very well with one of the other tenants, one I have never met (he is never there) and the other is basically acting as a spy on the LL's behalf.

I presume your rules are stipulated in your Tenancy Agreement? I have a friend who does not allow guests in his HMO, but he clearly states this. My partner entered in to an agreement where there was no mention of such "rules" and is now being bound by them!

The letter from the LL pretty much sums her up as a person and LL. I just want to make sure that my partner does everything to the letter of the law when dealing with the situation.

[IronsE11]

*but he clearly states this in the Tenancy Agreement...

[byterider]

The agreement can only be terminated before the end of the contract if both parties agree to it. If your partner just leaves then technically the LL could chase her (through the legal methods) for rent. Legally even if your partner does leave, the LL will not be able to get anyone to replace her until the end of the AST as it is only a few months away, and it is unlikely she will be able to prove your partner will have vacated the property permanently in this short length of time.

However in this instance I would imagine if your partner left then the LL would probably just get someone else in anyway and therefore would not a have leg to stand on if they tried to pursue your partner in court for rent.

This situation is complicated as the advice that follows the law may not be the best advice given your situation, however, I am not saying under any circumstance that you should deviate away from the law!

It would be interesting to see what advice the legal experts offer.....

My rules on guests are indeed in the AST

[IronsE11]

The agreement can only be terminated before the end of the contract if both parties agree to it.

Surely the agreement can be terminated by either party if the other regularly breaches its terms?


This situation is complicated as the advice that follows the law may not be the best advice given your situation

Unerstood. On the bright side, no deposit has been paid and no inventory provided (the LL clearly isn't the brightest spark) so if she wants to play hard-ball...

I have offered my partner rent-free temporary accomodation available immedietely, should the LL decide to illegally evict her (i.e remove her possessions and change the locks). This is less about the problem of finding alternative accomodation, and more about holding the LL accountable for her despicable behaviour.

[jeffrey]

Surely the agreement can be terminated by either party if the other regularly breaches its terms?
No. L can serve T under s.8; T cannot serve L (unless using a break clause).

[byterider]

Only the courts can decide if a breach has occurred. You can't just move out cancelling the contract just because you personally feel a breach may have happened.

If I were your partner I would ask the LL if you can mutually agree (in writing) to cancel the contract and just get the hell out. It really doesn't sound worth antagonising the situation until at least you are both out of it. When clear if you want to exact revenge by writing to the council about any breaches etc that you feel have been broken do it then.

[IronsE11]

No. L can serve T under s.8; T cannot serve L (unless using a break clause).


Only the courts can decide if a breach has occurred. You can't just move out cancelling the contract just because you personally feel a breach may have happened.

Ok, I doubt the courts will come in to, but I would imagine writing a letter to the L/L detailing the breaches would act as good insurance in the event that said breaches are referred to in court.

My partner will be moving out shortly and I think the L/L wil be more than happy to mutually terminate the agreement.

The thing that really bothers me is that I am not able to go round there and see my partner in the mean-time due to the threats that have been made by her L/L in the form of this ridiculous note (which has not been given to my partner but simply put up in the communal areas).

If and when I do go round there, I want to make sure my partner is on sound legal footing if the L/L does try to evict her immediately. I really wouldn't put it past the L/L to dispose of my partner's belongings and change the locks whilst she is at work!

Now that really would make me angry!

[byterider]

If the LL tries to evict your partner immediately without a court order then you call the police!

[Snorkerz]

If and when I do go round there, I want to make sure my partner is on sound legal footing if the L/L does try to evict her immediately. I really wouldn't put it past the L/L to dispose of my partner's belongings and change the locks whilst she is at work!Did you read the link in post #9?
With regard to your partners belongings - this page is written from a landlords point of view, but texplains what they can and can't do with your goods (and the pitfalls of doing otherwise) http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/uncollected_goods.htm

[boletus]

Hello IronsE11,

Thanks for sharing your experience, the Landlady sounds a complete nutter. I would probably react similarly.

But disregarding the LLs behaviour, you do realise you are the cause of all this. In practical terms it's none of your business. Your girlfriend is the one losing her home and may be getting into a messy confrontation that perhaps she really doesn't want.

Definately none of my business, but I thought a different view might help.

[Snorkerz]

Hello IronsE11,

Thanks for sharing your experience, the Landlady sounds a complete nutter. I would probably react similarly.

But disregarding the LLs behaviour, you do realise you are the cause of all this. In practical terms it's none of your business. Your girlfriend is the one losing her home and may be getting into a messy confrontation that perhaps she really doesn't want.

Definately none of my business, but I thought a different view might help.
Good advice.

We don't really do relationship advice on here - but your girlfriend is a grown up now and may feel you are 'taking over' a situation that she feels perfectly competent to handle herself. That won't do her self-respect much good, and may make her resent you. By all means offer help - but if she says no, then let her sort it out herself, knowing that you are there in the backgound ready to help if asked.

Why don't you get GF to have a read on here, so she knows what her rights are?

And, to copy boletus' last line - Definately none of my business, but I thought a different view might help

[IronsE11]

Hello IronsE11,

Thanks for sharing your experience, the Landlady sounds a complete nutter. I would probably react similarly.

But disregarding the LLs behaviour, you do realise you are the cause of all this. In practical terms it's none of your business. Your girlfriend is the one losing her home and may be getting into a messy confrontation that perhaps she really doesn't want.

Definately none of my business, but I thought a different view might help.


And, to copy boletus' last line - Definately none of my business, but I thought a different view might help

Not at all, I appreciate your input. I wouldn't post this on a public forum if I wasn't prepared to consider other people's opinions.

My girlfriend is incredibly stressed by the situation. She works very long hours in the City and simply wants to live in peace. She really doesn't have the time to deal with all of this.

The landlord's conduct essentially means that my girlfriend wants to move out regardless of me not being allowed there. It's completely her choice. Aside from the issues alluded to on this thread, the L/L has caused her no end of headaches since she moved in; Changing the locks (without notice) when my g/f was at work, and then requesting she meet her to pick up the new set of keys that evening being the most notable!

I am trying to help as much as I can by researching what her rights are and by providing her with alternative short-notice accommodation if the worst comes to the worst. There is no way she can continue to live there however she has become very good friends with one of the other tenants (who is also exasperated by the L/L's behaviour), and may possibly move in with her. The situation is such that she may need to stay at the property for another month or so until the other tenant knows what her circumstances will be.

In addition to this, I become a L/L myself last week, and so researching this sort of thing is particularly useful for me.

As I quality manage a HB/CTB/CTax department, hopefully I can also bring something to the forum in the way of advice for L/L's dealing with LHA issues.


Did you read the link in post #9?
With regard to your partners belongings - this page is written from a landlords point of view, but texplains what they can and can't do with your goods (and the pitfalls of doing otherwise) http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/uncollected_goods.htm

Yes I did read and thank you. I understand what the L/L can and can't do by law, but what she may decide to do is another matter entirely. She would be foolish to break the law, especially as the LA are already sending around an inspector regarding her HMO license (or lack of).

[Steve C]

I'm not going to make any comment on the legalities of what has been said as there are many on here who are far more experienced and qualified to do so than I am. Nor am I going to comment on this case in particular as it is very hard to make judgement when only one half of a situation is heard. Instead I will share some of my own experiences.

As well as a couple of houses let as single AST's, I have a property let to 5 individuals on five separate agreements in their own rooms. When I purchased the property several years back it was already an established HMO and was let out on a bills included basis. (No mention of the bills here, so not sure how relevant it is.) It therefore follows that every time a tenant has somebody stay over, it is me who pays for them to have a shower in the morning or chuck a few bits in the washing machine or even make a cup of tea come to that. Whilst I have never complained about the odd night over, I do run a business and not a charity.

I have found that no matter what the sex, the nationality, or the working status, be it unemployed, student or teacher, there is nothing that levels everyone better than someones routine being upset because they can't get in the bathroom in the morning because people are in the house "that shouldn't be there". Then instead of five adults you end up sorting squabbles between five, two year olds.

As I said, five tenants in five separate rooms. If each had someone to stay over that would be ten in the house and ten people just ain't gonna work.

Over the years I have had quite a few people come and go, most have been ok. I cannot recall anyone who has been there because they like the company, it tends to be because it is a lot cheaper than a bedsit or one bedroom flat. With that benefit of cheap accommodation there are unfortunately some limitations as to the way tenants live. Most people understand that, but unfortunately there have been a few who feel that they should have the same freedoms to do as they please as if living in a house on their own. Just an observation on the last point, the most unreasonable and problematic tenants, without exception, white, British and under 30.

It is also my opinion that HMO's are only really suited to singles.

[Steve C]

Aside from the issues alluded to on this thread, the L/L has caused her no end of headaches since she moved in; Changing the locks (without notice) when my g/f was at work, and then requesting she meet her to pick up the new set of keys that evening being the most notable!



This post was obviously being typed at the same time as my last post and whilst I did not want to comment directly on the original posting, I had a situation where I did a similar thing ie changed locks and requested meeting to hand over new keys. Without exception every tenant was pleased I did. Not my favourite way to spend an afternoon, change lock and get a dozen keys cut, but I believed that an undesirable ex-tenant still had a key. So from your post where you believed the LL was acting in a particularly bad way, I believe I was doing the opposite.

[IronsE11]

It is also my opinion that HMO's are only really suited to singles.

That is fair enough. If the L/L feels this way then it is up to them to include a clause in the tenancy agreement to this effect. This landlord has not, and is now trying to retrospectively do so in the form of a threatening notice.

As an aside, I would point out that aside from the occasional shower and charging my phone, I do not use the communal facilities. It could also be argued that when my girlfriend stays at my place, she does not use the water/electricity that she would do if she were at her property.

Swings and roundabouts as they say - I have never taken the proverbial, and would happily contribute to bills (for the one night a week I may stay over) if it meant that the situation was resolved amicably.

[IronsE11]

This post was obviously being typed at the same time as my last post and whilst I did not want to comment directly on the original posting, I had a situation where I did a similar thing ie changed locks and requested meeting to hand over new keys. Without exception every tenant was pleased I did. Not my favourite way to spend an afternoon, change lock and get a dozen keys cut, but I believed that an undesirable ex-tenant still had a key. So from your post where you believed the LL was acting in a particularly bad way, I believe I was doing the opposite.

Fair enough Steve, I believe the L/L may have been doing the same (the undesirable ex-tenant in this case was actually removed for "sub-letting" believe it or not).

My g/f in this case was going to a xmas party straight from work and wasn't due to get home until 12am. The L/L wanted to meet my g/f in the afternoon which wasn't possible. My g/f had to get one of the tenants to wait up and let her in when she got home which is unreasonable.

If you are going to do essential maintenance such as this, you should give the tenant more notice (i.e. not ring them up on the day and say I need to meet you in a couple of hours!!!)

[IronsE11]

I'm currently writing a letter to the landlord. As per her assertion that "overnight guests will be treated as sub tenants and therefore be kicked out immediately" I would like to provide her with a legal definition for subletting. Does anybody have one as I can't seem to find anything definitive online!

Thanks in advance.

[Steve C]

Fair enough Steve, I believe the L/L may have been doing the same (the undesirable ex-tenant in this case was actually removed for "sub-letting" believe it or not).

My g/f in this case was going to a xmas party straight from work and wasn't due to get home until 12am. The L/L wanted to meet my g/f in the afternoon which wasn't possible. My g/f had to get one of the tenants to wait up and let her in when she got home which is unreasonable.

If you are going to do essential maintenance such as this, you should give the tenant more notice (i.e. not ring them up on the day and say I need to meet you in a couple of hours!!!)

I am not going to defend a poor landlord, because at the end of the day they give the rest of us a bad name, and I'm not saying she went about it in the right way, but let me just play devils advocate for a second. There is a fair chance that somebody who has been forced to leave before they would like, could potentially be pretty p!ssed off. Not knowing all of the circumstances, I'd just say this. A fire door is a real pig to re-hang and a fire extinguisher let off under a door is none too pleasant either.

With that, this devil now needs some sleep.

[DrunkenJedi]

The HMO is in Tower Hamlets (Isle of Dogs) London. I have called the LA and the property is not HMO registered. The LA are aware it is a HMO and a visit from an inspection officer is pending. I really hope they nail her.

If the local authority find that the house is an unregistered HMO, the LL will be given notice to take steps to comply with the rules and take any measures they deeem necessary.
If the LL is not willing to do this, the LL must then issue notice to every tenant to leave at the earliest opportunity, which would be the end of each tenant's expiry of their tenancy agreement or SPT period.
The LL could then not re-let the property as a HMO and this may cause the LL some loss of income or void while they try to find a family perhaps.

Because of the above, I was going to suggest that you or your GF threaten the LL with a HMO inspection if they don't allow her to leave and to release her from all obligations of the tenancy agreement in writing from x date.
But seeing as an inspection is already pending, this won't work of course.

It is likely that the inspection may uncover other things that the LL has or hasn't been doing and which will put her into more trouble.
LL's like this tend to have other dirty goings-on/illegal activity/practices and these may come to light during or after the inspection.

[jeffrey]

Since I don't think your partner wants to stay at this house, I was going to suggest that you threaten the LL with a HMO inspection if they don't allow your partner to leave when they want and to release them from all obligations of the tenancy agreement in writing from x date.
Take care- this advice looks a little like incitement to blackmail.

[DrunkenJedi]

Perhaps, but sometimes its a quicker resolution to a very thorny problem.

[boletus]

Perhaps, but sometimes its a quicker resolution to a very thorny problem.

Do not, as some ungracious posters do,
Show me the steep and thorny way to heaven;
Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine,
Himself the primrose path of dalliance treads,
And recks not his own rede

Ophelia.

[Snorkerz]

I'm currently writing a letter to the landlord. As per her assertion that "overnight guests will be treated as sub tenants and therefore be kicked out immediately" I would like to provide her with a legal definition for subletting. Does anybody have one as I can't seem to find anything definitive online!

Thanks in advance.I can not give you a 'legal' definition of subletting, other than you can not have a tenancy or subtenancy because you do not have exclusive possession of any part of the property. In legal terms, you are an "excluded occupier" or lodger, with virtually no occupation rights.

[IronsE11]

I can not give you a 'legal' definition of subletting, other than you can not have a tenancy or subtenancy because you do not have exclusive possession of any part of the property. In legal terms, you are an "excluded occupier" or lodger, with virtually no occupation rights.

Thanks.

I have used a general definition of the term subletting and explained that as my girlfriend has not accepted rent payments or entered in to any form of commercial agreement with an overnight guest, she can not be deemed to be subletting the property. (Obviously the letter is written in the first person and signed by her).

I also pointed out that it is illegal to evict someone without a court order and threatening to do so also amounts to a criminal offence.

Finally, I stated that my girlfriend is a reasonable person and willing to discuss and compromise regarding any house rules.

I showed it to a lawyer who said it is fine.

Now it's over to the L/L. It's inevitable that my girlfriend will be moving out sooner rather than later, but at least she knows that she won't end up with her stuff on the streets (without severe ramifications for the LL) if I come round to see her for an evening this weekend.

[jeffrey]

I also pointed out that it is illegal to evict someone without a court order and threatening to do so also amounts to a criminal offence.
BUT that's not so for someone who is a lodger.

[IronsE11]

BUT that's not so for someone who is a lodger.

Thankfully my girlfriend isn't a lodger.

[mind the gap]

Do not, as some ungracious posters do,
Show me the steep and thorny way to heaven;
Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine,
Himself the primrose path of dalliance treads,
And recks not his own rede

Ophelia.

An excellent response, although I fear it will fall on deaf ears...:)

[Snorkerz]

Thankfully my girlfriend isn't a lodger.No, but you are her lodger.

[Bel]

Thanks.

I have used a general definition of the term subletting and explained that as my girlfriend has not accepted rent payments or entered in to any form of commercial agreement with an overnight guest, she can not be deemed to be subletting the property. (Obviously the letter is written in the first person and signed by her).

I also pointed out that it is illegal to evict someone without a court order and threatening to do so also amounts to a criminal offence.

Finally, I stated that my girlfriend is a reasonable person and willing to discuss and compromise regarding any house rules.

I showed it to a lawyer who said it is fine.

Now it's over to the L/L. It's inevitable that my girlfriend will be moving out sooner rather than later, but at least she knows that she won't end up with her stuff on the streets (without severe ramifications for the LL) if I come round to see her for an evening this weekend.

You may be correct and logical , but i hope you have very limited expectations on the kind of response you will get from the LL. Some would seem to prefer to break the rules before they are seen to 'give in'.

[IronsE11]

No, but you are her lodger.

But I'm not the one being threatened with eviction!

The situation has got to the point where the L/L's behaviour is so bizarre it's almost funny. On Friday night, the L/L was in the premises until 11pm and then there again at 7am the next morning wearing the same clothes. There was a mattress in the hallway. My G/F syated the night at my place, but the other tenants at her place are convinced the L/L stayed the night on a mattress in the HALLWAY!!!

She has also told one of the other tenants that she is now a 'live-in L/L' (sleeping in the hallway whilst the 4 bedrooms are occupied by tenants). One of the other tenants told the L/L that she has a friend visiting for a few days (actually a boyfriend but that wasn't stated), and the L/L has asked for a picture of the friend as "There are people watching the house and they need to know who the person visiting is".

Laughable.

I've also studied the T/A and it apears that there is no mention of occupation of an individual room on it (The T/A just has the property address). Could that mean that my g/f and other tenants have exclsuive rights to the entire property? Obviously, the L/L does not have a HMO license as has already been established. What are the legal implications of this, and is the legally L/L allowed to do what she is doing, regardless of how unreasonable it is?

[mind the gap]

My G/F syated the night at my place

:)That sounds exciting! Like 'gyrated'. Is it difficult?

[IronsE11]

:)That sounds exciting! Like 'gyrated'. Is it difficult?

Haha - Unfortunately it's just a case of me typing "t" and "y" the wrong way round, as opposed to something taken from the Kama Sutra!

[DrunkenJedi]

But I'm not the one being threatened with eviction!

No, but your presence, which your GF is allowing, is the cause of the threat.

[Snorkerz]

Firstly, even if LL did move in, it would not affect your GFs tenancy - she would not be demoted from tenant to 'excluded occupier' (lodger).

If all the tenants have an AST specifying the full property, then they can't all have 'exclusive rights' - it is not exclusive if you have to share it with others!

However, you are on the right lines. Technically, whoever was the first tenant, has a tenancy on the full property. Therefore the landlord had no right to let to the 2nd, 3rd etc - You can't sell the same tin of beans twice. Therefore T2, T3 etc can not have a valid contract with LL, they must be lodgers of T1. Therefore, their rent should be paid to T1 - they have no obligation to LL.

However, you would need to get a solicitor (expert in Landlord & Tenant Law) to argue that one.

Sleeping overnight in a hallway is hearing towards harassment - perhaps have a word with the Tenancy Relations Officer at the council to see if they can intevene.

I have missed a few posts - did you acertain if a license was needed for the property? If it is needed, and there isn't one, then GF has an opportunity to claim some of her rent back.

[IronsE11]

No, but your presence, which your GF is allowing, is the cause of the threat.

Well actually, she isn't allowing my presence! I haven't so much as knocked on the door since the notice was posted!

The situation will no doubt be sorted when my g/f has a better of idea of where and when she needs to move. In the mean time, the L/L has got her way, but if that means her spending up to 15 hours a day in the property and sleeping on the floor in the hallway then it's a rather hollow victory. Especially when neither of us are even there!

The women is insane, and I have no doubt that she is treading on some thin ice from a legal perspective.

I will be speaking to the LA regarding the situation, and will be posting on the messageboards where the L/L advertises the rooms, to warn prospective tenants. This may seem petty but I actually see it as a public duty to anyone who is unlucky enough to consider moving in.

[IronsE11]

Firstly, even if LL did move in, it would not affect your GFs tenancy - she would not be demoted from tenant to 'excluded occupier' (lodger).

If all the tenants have an AST specifying the full property, then they can't all have 'exclusive rights' - it is not exclusive if you have to share it with others!

However, you are on the right lines. Technically, whoever was the first tenant, has a tenancy on the full property. Therefore the landlord had no right to let to the 2nd, 3rd etc - You can't sell the same tin of beans twice. Therefore T2, T3 etc can not have a valid contract with LL, they must be lodgers of T1. Therefore, their rent should be paid to T1 - they have no obligation to LL.

However, you would need to get a solicitor (expert in Landlord & Tenant Law) to argue that one.

Sleeping overnight in a hallway is hearing towards harassment - perhaps have a word with the Tenancy Relations Officer at the council to see if they can intevene.

I have missed a few posts - did you acertain if a license was needed for the property? If it is needed, and there isn't one, then GF has an opportunity to claim some of her rent back.

Thanks

That is exactly what I'm getting at. I understand that the legal issues are complex, but I'm pretty sure the L/L has broken a number of rules.

When I said "exclusive use" what I meant is that if the tenancy relates to the entire property (as opposed to an individual room) then surely the L/L can not enter it without permission? As you mentioned, the tenant who signed the T/A first has exclusive use of the property. The property can't be deemed a HMO as there is no licencse, and the T/A's don't relate to indivdual rooms.

As it happens, my g/f was the last of the 4 tenants to move in, but all of the T/A's were signed on the same day (a couple of months after she moved in). I believe they were backdated accordingly, as no T/A's existed before then.

Like I said, the entire set-up seems completely dodgy.

[Snorkerz]

When I said "exclusive use" what I meant is that if the tenancy relates to the entire property (as opposed to an individual room) then surely the L/L can not enter it without permission? agreed


The property can't be deemed a HMO as there is no license, and the T/A's don't relate to individual rooms.TAs don't have to individual for it to be a HMO. If it is at least 3 people forming different 'households' it is a HMO - full stop.

If it consists of at least 5 people AND is 3 storeys or more - it is definitely a HMO which requires a mandatory license. (just 'coz it doesn't have one, doesn't mean its not a licensable HMO)

Some authorities add additional licensing, which means that properties in some areas that don't need a mandatory license, still need a license (if that makes sense). This tends to be in areas where HMOs are profligate - for instance close to universities.


As it happens, my g/f was the last of the 4 tenants to move in, but all of the T/A's were signed on the same day (a couple of months after she moved in). I believe they were backdated accordingly, as no T/A's existed before then.Why did they sign the tenancy agreements?

[IronsE11]

TAs don't have to individual for it to be a HMO. If it is at least 3 people forming different 'households' it is a HMO - full stop.

If it consists of at least 5 people AND is 3 storeys or more - it is definitely a HMO which requires a mandatory license. (just 'coz it doesn't have one, doesn't mean its not a licensable HMO)

Some authorities add additional licensing, which means that properties in some areas that don't need a mandatory license, still need a license (if that makes sense). This tends to be in areas where HMOs are profligate - for instance close to universities.

Thanks again for the info.

I've just spoken to the LA who have confirmed that a license is required for a HMO with 5 people or more. I queried whether this would include a "live-in" L/L, and whilst it does, as there are only 4 bedrooms and 4 tenants, the L/L can simply claim they are checking-up on the property and stay there occasionally. Apparently this is quite common.

The LA are still investigating the property, however it appears that the lack of a mandatory license is not an issue.



Why did they sign the tenancy agreements?

I don't know. I thought it was odd that there was no T/A signed prior to moving in.

Still it only became apparent that the L/L was a toal nut-job after the T/A was signed! Believe it or not, my G/F actually had verbal assurances from the L/L that there was no issue with guests before she moved in!

It looks like the fact that the T/A's relate to the entire property is probably the only thing that could act as a barrier to the L/L's continued presence in the property which as you have pointed out is bordering on harrassment.

I might investigate this further and write the L/L another letter (on behalf of my g/f and one of the other tenants) which informs the L/L that she is not allowed in to the property! If nothing else it would probably make her blow a fuse!

[Snorkerz]

It is quite wrong of me to say so, but sometimes, forcing the other party to blow a fuse can be a very effective way to get them to take a step too far - and give you something that you can really take action over.

Incidentally, blowing a fuse shouldn't be an issue - all HMOs should have a reasonably modern consumer unit with trip switches.

[IronsE11]

Incidentally, blowing a fuse shouldn't be an issue - all HMOs should have a reasonably modern consumer unit with trip switches.

Funny you should mention that...

A problem with one of the sockets in my g/f's room actually caused a power overload which blew the power adapter on her TV.

[Steve C]

If LL is as mad as you say, maybe she is sleeping at the property because the old man has chucked her out and she has nowhere else to stay. Fancy getting up in the night to use the loo and tripping over that in the hallway.

[IronsE11]

The L/L asked my g/f to leave this morning. Gave her one month although I think this was verbal, and not a proper written notice. I won't know until I've spoken to her.

Apparently the L/L knows my name and has substantial evidence that my g/f has been subletting the property to me (evidence that would hold up in a court of law).

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[DrunkenJedi]

Well at least your GF will be out of this awful living situation.
There is nothing the LL can do to you or your GF worse than giving you notice to leave.

I think a nice celebratory dinner at your fav restaurant with some bubbly is in order.

[IronsE11]

Well at least your GF will be out of this awful living situation.
There is nothing the LL can do to you or your GF worse than giving you notice to leave.

I think a nice celebratory dinner at your fav restaurant with some bubbly is in order.

That's the way we're trying to look at it. I just pity the next person who moves in there.

[mind the gap]

That's the way we're trying to look at it. I just pity the next person who moves in there.
If she (LL from Mars) conducts viewing while GF is still living there, tell GF to make a point of asking prospectives what they would like to know about living there. She should then steer them to one side, gaily chatting and reassuring the LL along the lines of 'Oh, don't worry, I'm more than happy to show X round...I'm sure she'd like to hear all about it from the horse's mouth! Don't worry, I promise to tell the whole truth!'. LL cannot argue with that...and if she does, the desired effect will ahve been achieved anyway.

[HMO Landlord]

What a great post, very interesting and i really wanted to add something but too many knowledgable people here.

Erm.....
Erm....

Congratulations maybe in order for the girlfriend getting out. Hoorah.

Serious note.

GET IT IN WRITING! Sorry to shout, but if landlady has agreed to girlfriend leaving then please get it in writing. Otherwise, given the landlady's history you may find girlfriend at risk of legal action. Who's to say landlady won't suddenly decide that the girlfriend has broken the tenancy agreement after the girlfriend has moved out and then chase you for more monies etc, etc. If it comes to it, you and your girlfriend could type a letter stating that both parties agree to exit tenancy, get landlady to sign it.......Get someone independent to witness it.

One more thing....it may sound silly at this point but landlady shouldn't be blocking hallways with obstructions (mattress), that would be against health and safety laws, esspecially in an HMO.

[mind the gap]

One more thing....it may sound silly at this point but landlady shouldn't be blocking hallways with obstructions (mattress), that would be against health and safety laws, esspecially in an HMO.

i agree...but have you ever tried telling an obsessive, unhinged woman who has slept on a mattress in a corridor all night, that she is a fire risk?

Sooner you than I...!

[Snorkerz]

Sooner you than I...!MTG you suprise me, I thought you would enjoy telling her - and demonstrating the risk by setting fire to the mattress - with her on-board! :eek:

[mind the gap]

MTG you suprise me, I thought you would enjoy telling her - and demonstrating the risk by setting fire to the mattress - with her on-board! :eek:

You have got me completely wrong and I am rather hurt. I am utterly non-violent. I once scoured Homebase-type stores throughout south west France for a humane mousetrap, for goodness' sake! (You can imagine the responses I got!)... I would not knowingly set fire to anything not in a fireplace.

[Snorkerz]

You have got me completely wrong and I am rather hurt. I am utterly non-violent. I once scoured Homebase-type stores throughout south west France for a humane mousetrap, for goodness' sake! (You can imagine the responses I got!)... I would not knowingly set fire to anything not in a fireplace.MTG, I apologise, but providing IronsE11 has fireplaces in the HMO, perhaps we could work out a compromise?

[mind the gap]

MTG, I apologise, but providing IronsE11 has fireplaces in the HMO, perhaps we could work out a compromise?

Er..no thanks, I'll pass on the re-enactment of Miss Havisham going up in flames. Been there too many times with Year 10s over the years!

[HMO Landlord]

Maybe they could wait till she's asleep on mattress and roll it op like a swiss roll. Prop her up in the corner or something. Unless it states in Tenancy agreement that tampering with the landlady is not allowed of course.

[midlandslandlord]

You have got me completely wrong and I am rather hurt. I am utterly non-violent. I once scoured Homebase-type stores throughout south west France for a humane mousetrap, for goodness' sake! (You can imagine the responses I got!)... I would not knowingly set fire to anything not in a fireplace.

I'd have thought that there'd be a market for live mouse traps, since surely you get a better price for live mice vs dead. (Compare with sheep exported live or dead).

ML

[mind the gap]

I'd have thought that there'd be a market for live mouse traps, since surely you get a better price for live mice vs dead. (Compare with sheep exported live or dead).

ML

Well, judging by the looks of total bafflement and the Gallic shrugs I encountered when asking for one, I had to conclude that even the French draw the line at eating mice these days. The possibilities for recipes are interesting though.

Entrecote de Petite Souris avec Jus
Souris a l'ail et a l'enveloppe
Souris au Gratin Fumé

etc.

[midlandslandlord]

I'd go for Mouse Kiev, then you can keep them in one piece.

Of course, most cultures (except us squeamish lot) prefer rats, or horses.

Nothing beats the face pulled by a normal urban "Femme d'Un Certain Age" when informed that there is a piece of horse in the fridge.

I never tried it with rat.

Mischeviously...

ML

[IronsE11]

Serious note.

GET IT IN WRITING! Sorry to shout, but if landlady has agreed to girlfriend leaving then please get it in writing. Otherwise, given the landlady's history you may find girlfriend at risk of legal action. Who's to say landlady won't suddenly decide that the girlfriend has broken the tenancy agreement after the girlfriend has moved out and then chase you for more monies etc, etc. If it comes to it, you and your girlfriend could type a letter stating that both parties agree to exit tenancy, get landlady to sign it.......Get someone independent to witness it.

Thanks very much for the advice. My g/f had a meeting with the LL last Friday and it was agreed (verbally) that she would move out in a month. I will make sure my g/f gets this witnessed in writing though. I think the LL wants my g/f out as much as she wants to leave, so I don't see the LL causing further problems but you never know...

My g/f did make it clear to the LL that she is under no obligation to leave as she has not broken the terms of the tenancy agreement but that she would do so as it is in the best interest of both parties.

The LL is still adamant that my g/f has been subletting and says that she has definitive evidence of this! On Friday, she produced a log-book with the times that every tenant has entered and left the house in the last month. She has a relative watching the property at all times. Creepy!

Anyway, this "evidence" was a letter posted to the house to an addressee who does not live there. She believes the letter was mine, and therefore constitutes proof that I was getting my mail redirected there. Suffice to say this is laughable. The letter wasn't even addressed to me!

Fingers crossed my g/f she has better luck at her next place!

[DrunkenJedi]

Fingers crossed my g/f she has better luck at her next place!

Instead, why not ensure the tenancy agreement provides for visitors staying over and that it is very clear what the rules are in this respect?

Yes, you cannot know how the next LL will be like, but you can ensure that you and your GFs concerns, issues, safeguards, etc., are clearly raised and discussed with the LL (not the LA unless in writing) before you commit to a property and that anything agreed is memorialised in the tenancy agreement or other connected document that you sign.

[IronsE11]

Instead, why not ensure the tenancy agreement provides for visitors staying over and that it is very clear what the rules are in this respect?

Yes, you cannot know how the next LL will be like, but you can ensure that you and your GFs concerns, issues, safeguards, etc., are clearly raised and discussed with the LL (not the LA unless in writing) before you commit to a property and that anything agreed is memorialised in the tenancy agreement or other connected document that you sign.

It was discussed briefly with the LL prior to her moving in.

The LL said there was no problem with guests, and it was only when she somehow got it in to her head that my g/f was subletting, that her behaviour took a turn for the stranger.

My g/f is temporarily moving in to my family home where this obviously won't be an issue, but I dare say she will formalise the issue of guests in writing, prior to signing a TA at her next place!

[DrunkenJedi]

It was discussed briefly with the LL prior to her moving in.

Many a disagreement, argument, hostility, fight, battle, war have commenced & continued because of misunderstandings, a lack of clarity, mismatched ideas and nothing written down.
On this occasion, you'll benefit from the saying "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" and now that you are aware of how things can end up when not properly agreed/understood/documented, you & your GF will most likely approach every other agreement/commitment with more vigilance and verification from the other parties as to what is agreed.

Good luck to you and your GF.

[IronsE11]

Thanks.

That's all very true. You live and learn, and we certainly have.