Leasehold flat- wooden floors-noise problems

[Sa_Casa]

Hi, Am about to buy a flat, the problem we have is there is a wooden floor everywhere already whereas in the lease it's written that only carpet must be put in. I said to th vendor am not gonna buy a flat with a breach of convenant so my sollicitor asked them to pay an insurance policy which cover the cost in case I need to reput carpet everywhere.

Btw i'm confident that in case wooden floor even flooating is not allowed the insurance policy must be paid by the vendor not me... but he said he bought the flat like that so don't want to move from his position. it's a bit tricky as I don't want carpet in the flat and he doesn't want to replace the wooden floor so we both want the same thing but am gonna stick to the lease to be leagaly covered.

However, a friend of mine told me that if it's a floating wooden floor it could be allowed as there is like a foam beween the floor and the wooden floor which reduce the noise.. is that right ?
can you help me on this issue asap as we are about to do the exchange and the completion soon ? Thanks very much for your help, Sam

[Poppy]

In my opinion, clauses such as "keep floors carpeted" have been put there for the benefit and comfort of all the building's occupants.

If you think you want this flat, find out what the freeholder's and other lessees' attitude is to the absence of carpets. Are your neighbours silently stewing about the noisy wooden floors, regardless of who removed the carpet?

Strictly speaking, if you sign a lease of your own free will you should not set out to breach its clauses.

If you truly want bare floors, for your own peace of mind perhaps you should seek a different flat which does not contain such a clause.

[Sa_Casa]

Hi Poppy, tks for that, I wanted to asked to the freeholder and to the ground floor owners if they didn't mind the fact it's not carpeted ...am sure there is no problem as there is already wooden floor everywhere since ages.
However, my sollicitor told me it's not a good thing to go back and mention to the freeholder that there is a breach of convenant as he can ask for a search and complain about the actual seller and this could take weeks before I can buy this flat.
To sort this oout my sollicitor proposed to the vendor a insurance policy around £200 but he still refuse to pay it. which pressure can I put on him to pay it ? As he's the one who breached the lease so, cann't I put the pressur saying I'll mention this to the freeholder ? and this will cost him more than the price of this policy... ?

[Poppy]

Just stop.

Do you honestly think that bribing the existing owner with "I'll tell the freeholder unless you pay for insurance" will make him sell the flat to you?

Why would you want to buy a lease with the intention of breaching it? Has your solicitor explained the consequences of breaching the lease?

[Sa_Casa]

I have no intention to breach the lease but it's already done that's why I need the seller to pay an insurance policy that cover me in case i need to replace the wooden floor by a carpet.

[SteveP]

I have no intention to breach the lease but it's already done that's why I need the seller to pay an insurance policy that cover me in case i need to replace the wooden floor by a carpet.

I think the pint poppy is making is that if you buy the flat you WILL be in breach unless you replace the floor coverings with carpet. So you either intend to carpet or you intend to breach the lease. Since you want insurance "in case" you need to put down carpet it is clear you do not intend to do so unless someone forces you to. Ergo you intend to breach the lease.

[MrShed]

I don't agree with the threat of contacting the freeholder....but you maybe should contact them anyway. Maybe you can get it in writing that they would not persue such a breach? If they won't pay for such insurance, maybe the best way to find out the future is to discuss it with the freeholder. However, this is way outside of my area, this just seems like common sense to me - there are maybe reasons why you cannot do this!

[Sa_Casa]

SteveP and Poppy you're right..I visited the flat with wooden floor and do want to keep it as stated so yes it could be a breach..i'll take the risk but not without any insurance policy to cover the costs.

MrShed, I've asked this to my sollicitor but she said it could take ages before the freeholder takes it's decision and am supposed to omve in within a month.. and besideds that, he could refuse and asked the actual vndor to reput carpet everywhere via a legal action for brweaching the lease and it could take months I think...

am bit lost with what's good to do. all is sorted to move in quickly and can't the process as I gave my notice into my actual flat and all my staff are supposed to be sent from ireland in a month too so ...

[MrShed]

I would say the answer is simple then. If it is that important to you, then you are just going to have to take out the insurance yourself. How much are we talking about?

[Poppy]

Buy the property anyway (as you appear to be doing). If I were the vendor I wouldn't take out insurance for your benefit, because I know that my responsibility ends when you take over ownership.

Come at this from the point of view that maybe at some date in the future you will have to carpet the flat on the freeholder's or other lessees' insistence. I also hope that you will experience good relations with your neighbouring lessees.

I hope that you have full knowledge and proof of service charge payments and satisfaction that no other breaches have been instigated by the existing lessee. I hope that your solicitor has done his job in contacting the freeholder and asking relevant questions about the purchase.

Caveat emptor.

[Corinne Tuplin]

Hi Sam,

I have a client in this situation. The freeholder's Managing Agent spotted the wooden flooring and asked for it to be removed as it was contrary to the tenant's Lease.

I am in the process of negotiating a Deed of Variation to remove the offending clause. The property in question has had full soundproofing and is on the ground floor.

This may be something to consider later down the line.

Regards,

CORINNE TUPLIN
DIRECTOR
PRO-LEAGLE
www.proleagle.com

[frosty]

I would very much welcome any advice regarding the issue of wood / laminate flooring in my apartment block.

Firstly, this is what our lease says:-

"..To provide and further maintain carpets carpeting underfelt and other good quality soundproofing material on the entire floor surface of the Demised Premises in order to prevent the transmission of sound from the Demised Premises to any other parts of the Building.."

On the face of it, it appears that wooden flooring is simply not allowed, but it should be borne in mind that the developer sold the flats with wood or laminate flooring as standard.!

Our Residents Management Company has recently received a seemingly justified complaint from a leaseholder claiming that the people living above them are unreasonably noisy, with the situation exacerbated by the installed wooden flooring throughout.

(Whereas we have on several occasions instructed our managing agent to warn the individuals concerned, it seems that they choose to ignore the warnings).

We are now at a loss as to what to do, particularly as all the flats were sold with wooden flooring which we feel undermines our case somewhat.

Does anyone have any advice they can offer.?

Many thanks.

[jeffrey]

1. Developer (D) cannot claim that original flooring is in breach, as it installed this.
2. However, covenant could mean that lessees have to lay extra stuff on top of flooring, to damp down noise.
3. How long ago were flats first demised? If D is local and still around, contact it and ask how it envisaged the flooring being sound-deadened?
4. Does D still own f/r or was this transferred to your lessees-owned Mgt. Co?

[frosty]

Thanks for the reply, Jeffrey

1. Developer (a national company) is still going strong.

2. Flats (300+) variously demised between 2002-04.

3. The Developer sold the lease interest to a third party prior to the first flat being sold. The Residents Management Company do not own the f/r...

[pa2009]

Hi,

We laid wooden floorboards and new kitchen tiles in our flat. Our neighbour, who occupies the ground floor of a two storey period property, now complaints about the noise, apparently, she can hear us walking. We are planning to let the flat and our neighbour demands that this matter is sorted otherwise she will take a legal action against us.

There is nothing in the lease that would prevent us from having wooden floorboards, the floors have been insulated with good quality sound insulation and we have even offered to lay rugs.

However, this does not seem to be enough and our neighbour demands we have carpets and even suggested our kitchen tiles are changed (when I mentioned we had tile before in out kitchen, our neighbour claimed they were form a different material and not too noisy) otherwise she take matters to court.

We are pretty sure that our neighbour exaggerates about the noise as she used to complain about the noise even when we had carpets. We are not noisy at all and do not even wear shoes at home!

Our neighbour is well known as a difficult person and gets into a conflict with other neighbours as well as with the managing agent.

I am worried that our neighbour will:
1. manage to get the managing agent order us to put carpets through constant complaining to them
2. cause problems to our tenants as she has no hesitation to attack people verbally

Does she have a case? Could she force us to lay carpets?

We are also thinking of instructing a solicitor to deal with this matter.

I would be grateful for any advice on what our rights are and how we could resolve this matter. Any contact for a good solicitor who could deal with the above would also be appreciated.

Many thanks

[jeffrey]

Are you a long-leaseholder or only a short-term (AST) tenant?

[pa2009]

Hi Jeffrey,

It's a long leashold - nearly 100 years. We will be letting our flat out and already have a consent from the managing agent.

[jeffrey]

It's a long leashold - nearly 100 years. We will be letting our flat out and already have a consent from the managing agent.
OK- so, as long as you comply with the lease covenants, L and neighbour cannot do anything at all.

[pa2009]

But the lease states that noise must not be a nuisance to the other leasholder. And this is what the neighbour is pointing out - that the noise is unacceptable. The lease also states that we must not do anything which may be or grow to be an annoyance or damage to the neighbour or which could depriciate the neighbouring property. Our neighbour implies that will not be able to sell the flat because of the noise or that it will affect the price. I may be paranoid but the situation has considerably aggreviated and we are threatened with legal proceedings.

I assume there would have to be a third party involved to measure the level of noise to know exactly whether it is unaccaptable. Our neighbour has complained to the Managing Agent so much that even the Managing Agent already suggested we lay carpets.

[jeffrey]

Ignore the Managing Agent. What counts is what the reversioner (L) decides. Is L a company owned by all lessees; if so, are you a member?

[pa2009]

Could you please clarify what a reversioner is?

[pa2009]

We would like to discuss the matter with a solicitor and to have a formal letter written to our neighbour confirming that we are entitled to keep the wooden flooring and that the neighbour has no grounds for any legal action.

Would you suggest a good solicitor that we could contact?

[jeffrey]

Could you please clarify what a reversioner is?
OK.
1. X owns freehold land.
2. X grants lease to Y.
3. X still owns freehold BUT it's subject to Y's lease.
4. So X now has a freehold reversion: the freehold estate into which practical ownership will revert once Y's lease expires [disregarding any statutory rights, of course]. X is Y's reversioner or landlord.

[animal]

You may be interested in the following case:


It is instructive to have a look at a real-life example and one recent neighbourly dispute that reached the Courts concerned a very upmarket block in Kensington. The High Court considered the dispute concerning noisy neighbours in July 2002. Many of you reading this article may identify with poor Mr Stannard who had lived in his flat since 1971. However for the last ten years he has suffered a particular nuisance from noise invasion. The terms of the lease in the block had a fairly stringent requirement that there had to be floor coverings, carpeting and the like, to minimise noise transmission in each flat. Although for technical reasons Mr Stannard could not take full advantage of the terms of the standard lease the provision was material background and in any event Mr Stannard brought his action as one of nuisance where he did not have to rely upon the lease. The installation of a marble floor in the flat above gave rise to so much disturbance that Mr Stannard and his family had difficulty sleeping. They could hear hoovering and moving around during the day and because the family above them kept different hours, sometimes coming home in the small hours of the morning with friends and guests, the annoyance was made worse. Even chairs scraping on the floor in the kitchen came through to the Stannards’ flat. One of the fundamental problems that caused this difficulty which is not wholly uncommon is a failure in stacking arrangements so that the vertical distribution of accommodation is incompatible with the minimisation of noise invasion. In this particular case the kitchen and principal bathroom of the upper flat were directly above Mr Stannard’s drawing room. Both their kitchen and bathroom were floored with ceramic or similar tiles. Mr Stannard explained how anyone walking or running along the marble floor particularly in high heels created very audible noise in his flat. When everyone maintained carpets in position and the accommodation was vertically compatible, disturbance by noise was minimal. Where the marble floor was laid with some kind of resilient acoustic barrier the problem was again minimised. The Judge found Mr Stannard to be a highly intelligent and sensitive man who had suffered over the last ten or more years and it is interesting that he took that into account in deciding what Mr Stannard had to tolerate as reasonable. Was Mr Stannard being over-sensitive? The Judge thought not.

The case also illustrates one important feature in this sort of litigation – the need to have an expert to give evidence on your behalf. Here Mr Stannard had enlisted the support of a noise expert who gave technical evidence. Again it was interesting to see that the Court appeared to think it possible that the standard to be met might be different for new build as opposed to conversions where the requirements might be less stringent. In this particular case it was not necessary to determine that issue finally. The expert recognised that flats in urban areas do involve the tolerance of some level of noise but he thought that the noise Mr Stannard was suffering was above the modern standards of acceptability, particularly in luxury flats.

It was important to appreciate that the expert considered that the problem could have been substantially alleviated by the specification of technically correct media works involving the laying of an acoustic barrier to separate floor coverings from the structure below and alongside. Those leaseholders thinking of doing work which could create a noise problem are therefore well advised to take expert technical advice to ensure that they do everything possible to minimise noise since if they annoy their neighbours they may have to explain themselves in Court.

The Judge made it clear that there was no absolute standard to apply and ultimately it was a question of degree where the interference with comfort or convenience constituted a nuisance. The Court had to look at all the circumstances of the particular case and the discomfort had to be substantial to any person occupying the premises irrespective of their position in life, age or state of health. The fact that teenagers might tolerate some of the noise was not an indication of the standard to be expected by an adult occupier. The Court had to apply modern-day standards and should not be regressive. The mere fact that a floor covering such as linoleum was permitted by the lease in, for example, the kitchen would not absolve the leaseholder from a claim to nuisance if it led to unacceptable noise. The Judge concluded that on any objective standard of reasonableness the noise that Mr Stannard was suffering from was unreasonable, unacceptable and constituted an actionable nuisance. In reaching tis conclusion the Judge was not interested in whether or not the neighbours who made the noise had enough money or not to carry out remedial works.

In looking for the solution the Judge made it clear that he hoped that the parties would agree a specification of works to be carried out within a reasonable time that would deal with the problem. So, what does this case tell us about modern-day living in blocks of flats? Firstly if your neighbours are driving you mad with noise you do not have to put up with it. Secondly, you must be reasonable in your approach and the Court will look at this from a reasonable standpoint objectively. Thirdly you need to get a qualified expert to back you up in your assessment of the noise problem. Finally, so as to give yourself the maximum protection with regard to the costs of such a case you need to be seen to have done everything possible to have resolved the problem before heading for the Courts.

Hopefully Mr Stannard is now sleeping peacefully at night.

[pa2009]

Ignore the Managing Agent. What counts is what the reversioner (L) decides. Is L a company owned by all lessees; if so, are you a member?

The L is a private company, not owned by the lessees.

The lease also states that we must not do anything which may be or grow to be an annoyance or damage to the neighbour or which could depriciate the neighbouring property. Our neighbour implies that will not be able to sell the flat because of the noise or that it will affect the price of the property.

We will most likely get someone in to measure the noise levels and discuss a solicitor. We do want to be considered and look into this but also want to make sure that we are not deprived of our rights.

Many thanks for your help.

[surreygirl]

Why can you not be a little bit sympathetic to the person who lives below. They may have a genuine complaint. It is dreadful to have noise coming from above with people walking across in hard shoes etc and moving furniture even just getting up and pushing a chair aside can cause a great deal of noise.

I have a marple floor and therefore I have put felt on the bottom of chairs and tables, if I move furniture about I make sure that I lift it so as to avoid scrapping noises etc., I also wear slippers rather than hard outdoor shoes around the house.

Why not go down stairs and ask to liston to the noise. Get someone to walk across etc so that you KNOW what the noise is and how it sounds. Why talk about legal action and calling the owner below a "mentalist" why not try to communicate and work towards a sensible and mature solution. There is nothing like noise coming from above to drive you around the bend.

Carpet would have been the best option especially as you are going to let it out to tenants who very often are a bit careless.

[TC2009]

Why talk about legal action and calling the owner below a "mentalist" why not try to communicate and work towards a sensible and mature solution. .

1) flat was fully carpeted
2) several of the noise incidents (footsteps and moving furniture) he complained about occurred when the flat was vacant. So either a poltergeist above, or a bit of a mentalist below.
I never called him a mentalist to his face, that'd be like chucking petrol on a barbecue

[jeffrey]

I have a marple floor.
Maple or marble?

[pa2009]

Why can you not be a little bit sympathetic to the person who lives below. They may have a genuine complaint. It is dreadful to have noise coming from above with people walking across in hard shoes etc and moving furniture even just getting up and pushing a chair aside can cause a great deal of noise.

I have a marple floor and therefore I have put felt on the bottom of chairs and tables, if I move furniture about I make sure that I lift it so as to avoid scrapping noises etc., I also wear slippers rather than hard outdoor shoes around the house.

Why not go down stairs and ask to liston to the noise. Get someone to walk across etc so that you KNOW what the noise is and how it sounds. Why talk about legal action and calling the owner below a "mentalist" why not try to communicate and work towards a sensible and mature solution. There is nothing like noise coming from above to drive you around the bend.

Carpet would have been the best option especially as you are going to let it out to tenants who very often are a bit careless.


As for our flat - It was the neighbour calling out for a legal action first and not willing to negotiate amicably or come to a reasonable compromise. The neighbour complained about hearing us walking even when we had carpets - we can hear other neighbours in the house, of course this neighbour will hear some noise from us as well. We are considered and offered to lay rugs. We will also put a clause in the tenants agreement to only wear appropriate footwear. How would you feel if your neighbour wanted you to get rid off your marble flooring even though you just do not make unreasonable noise?

I think there have to be both parties willing to resolve the matter. Not just us and the neighbour dictating what we can or can not do in our own property.

As I said we will get someone to measure the noise levels and then go from there.

Thanks for all your comment, very helpful!

[jeffrey]

I have a marple floor.


Maple or marble?
Or do you Miss Marple?
[It was the Butler, in the lounge, with a poker wot dunnit]

[Bolly]

Hi, I own a leasehold flat and a share of the freehold. The lease contains a clause saying that floors should be kept covered by carpet and underlay or other suitable covering. The flat above me has had wooden floors installed and believes that this is a suitable covering. Has anyone had this clarified in law or know where I can find clarification please?

[jeffrey]

The wood does not 'cover' the floor at all. The wood is the floor. So, no, it cannot be a "suitable floor covering".

[Bolly]

Thanks Geoffrey - just to clarify - my neighbour has had laminate/wooden floor laid over the original wooden floor. Does your answer still apply? If so, what remedy to I have? He and I are both the sole directors of the management company

[Lawcruncher]

I think we need to look behind the words to find the purpose of the covenant, which I think has to be that the floor is covered with something that deadens sound.

[Bolly]

Thank you. That is very helpful

[jeffrey]

Thanks Jeffrey - just to clarify - my neighbour has had laminate/wooden floor laid over the original wooden floor. Does your answer still apply? If so, what remedy to I have? He and I are both the sole directors of the management company
Aha, that's not what you said! Either way, I doubt that a lamina is a 'floor covering' for any present purposes.

[jeffrey]

What remedy do I have?
Only to try and enforce (via Court, if necessary) your view- and mine/Lawcruncher's, I hope- of what 'floor covering' is meant to be.

[Tipper]

Tell your other party that if he would lay some 'proper' acoustic flooring then he can do what he likes above your head!

The condition in the lease is there to stop hard surfaces and the noise that emanates from them.

Latest Building Regs require acoustic flooring/ceilings and a sound test to ensure compliance in a converted house or new build for that matter.

Search for Building Regs Part E for full details.

[jth]

I am in a similar situation - I originally planned to have the floors sanded but have a carpet clause in the leasehold document. Can I have a new wooden floor laid over the carpets? Would this be likely to count for the purposes of the leasehold?

[jeffrey]

That depends on the clause, of course. What does it say, precisely?

[PhilN2]

Hello,

We live in ground floor flat of a period conversion and have laminate wood floor, but there is a layer of sound deadening material underneath as required by the lease (this is what the conveyance solicitor confirmed when we bought the flat). Our neighbor downstairs complained about the noise of us walking and asked us to remove our shoes when we are in, which we now do. He still complained so we offered to sit down and discuss but he says there is nothing to discuss unless we stop walking or address the issue (not sure what he means by that, but he keeps referring to the fact that there is nothing between the wood floor and the joists: I guess he means re-construct the building to a higher standard). In any case he doesn't dispute our compliance with the lease but he now keeps banging on his ceiling each time we walk. This can be persistent and very loud.

My initial reaction was that there is no reason why we should be more responsible than he is about the construction standards of this old building. Could anybody please confirm this

What is extraordinary is that we are already extremely discreet, we are away most week ends, have few visits, never stay up late and my wife has even cramps in her legs from tip toeing. But he bangs at 7pm when we walk only 4 steps to go from one sofa to another.

This is getting to the point where this is stressing us a lot and I'm wondering if by being accomodating and nice we make things actually worse (silence seems to encourage the bully). I'm wondering what can we do if this continues to deteriorate: at what point can you call the council, the police, or get any results from legal action (if so which one: harassment)?

Thank you very much for your help, I realise the subject is borderline for this forum, but I find the quality of the forum excellent

Phil

[islandgirl]

Phil - have a look at the "neighbours from hell in Britian" site - lots of stuff about noise in flats on there. I am sorry you have this problem and hope you resolve it - apologies but I have not faced this situation so cannot be of much help to you. Good luck.

[westminster]

There is probably a clause in your lease saying leaseholders mustn't cause a nuisance, annoyance etc, so complain to the freeholder about the behaviour of the other leaseholder.

[jeffrey]

PhilN2: there are many LZ threads, on this Forum, about the problems of wooden-floored flats. You ought to have a look at them and also (as westminster mentions) at whatever relevant covenants appear in your lease.

[PhilN2]

OK thank you, will have a look at other threads, regarding the covenant in the lease I should have mentioned that we all have a share of freehold and the neighnor downstairs is also a director, which I guess complicate the matter

[quarterday]

Some leases, as others have alluded to, do specifically say that floors must carpeted. Even if your lease, as is normal, says you mustn't cause a nuisance to others it is questionable whether in point of fact you are causing a nuisance. My advice to you is that the longer this goes on the less chance the man below has of forcing you to take up the laminate and put down carpet. It might be well worth buying some long carpet "runners" with good quality underlay beneath to fix , possibly temporarily along the hallways to deaden sound when you walk in that part of the flat. That might take the wind out of his sails.

Presumably as you are all shareholders in the freehold company there is no ground rent reserved. If there is, hasten to tender it, as acceptance of rent will go a long way toward waiving the alleged breach of covenant.

[animal]

Did the previous owners disclose a history of dispute over this issue?

If not, then why did the neighbour downstairs not complaint then? Or did the vendors not disclose a dispute?

[Gordon999]

Perhaps the layer of sound deadening material under the floor boards does not exist or not fully laid in space between the floor joists . ( or the wrong grade ( too thin ) of sound deadening material was installed if a cowboy handyman company did the installation ).

To investgate further , OP should sit in downstairs flat and ask someone to walk over laminate floor of upstairs flat to identify places where sound is coming thru at unacceptable level.

It may mean lifting the floor boards and adding extra sound resisting material. Older buildings were constructed for lifestyles of daytime living on the ground floor areas and sleeping on carpeted covered higher floors and noise between floors was never a problem. Check with local council to see if there is any standard for sound insulation used in wood floors.

[PhilN2]

Thank you

There was definitely no complaint from the previous neighbors, it should be noted that they have done some work to their place and in particular added ceiling lights, and we understand this can make things worse as the noise travel tghrough the holes.

There is definitely an approx. 8mm thick sound deadening material underneath the wood floor which can be seen, also we offered to put rugs, but they seem to have a problem with the whole thing: joists, floor etc whereas the lease states the flat starts from the floorboard: why should we be responsible for this?

[quarterday]

Actually, if you want to go on the offensive, you could quite reasonably complain that unless there was plasterboard boxing in of the recessed spot lighting or intumescent cloth covers (colloquially known as "fire hats") your downstairs neighbours have breached building regulations by perforating the fire wall that the plastered ceiling formerly represented. And in a way that's far more serious... If the spotlights are tungsten filament and or 12v dichroic with individual wound transformers (as opposed to electronic) they will generate significant heat representing an immediate health and safety hazard........

[westminster]

Thank you

There was definitely no complaint from the previous neighbors, it should be noted that they have done some work to their place and in particular added ceiling lights, and we understand this can make things worse as the noise travel tghrough the holes.

Yes, the sound will be travelling through the holes; you've already got a soundproofed floor so it's really up to the downstairs neighbour to soundproof his ceiling. And he's done the opposite, creating new pathways for the sound to travel through.

As quarterday says, I'd also be worried about the possible fire risk.

The fact that the neighbour is a director of the company owning the freehold does complicate things, but doesn't entitle him to breach the terms of the lease and cause a nuisance. Presumably there are other shareholders in the upper flats?

[Bolly]

Hi Phil, I live in a ground floor leasehold flat and the lease requires that flooring be covered in carpet and underlay or other suitable covering, and there is also a clause regarding not being a nuisance or annoyance to other neighbours. My upstairs neighbour had laminate flooring laid over his wooden floorboards in his sitting room which is directly above my bedroom. The noise on occasions is dreadful. It is impossible to sleep if they have friends round late at night or put their TV on surround sound with sub woofer which reverberates through my ceiling. I have tried to be polite about it and have even offered a contribution to special noise deadening underlay, but sadly relations have broken down. My solicitor confirms that in his view they have broken the clauses in the lease relating to carpets and underlay and nuisance to other neighbours and I am now in the process of complaining to the manangement company and to environmental health. I have only ever complained during evening/nighttime hours and even then, I have only complained when I am at my wits end.

It does make sense to try and resolve matters between you. Obviously you want to enjoy your lovely wooden floors and the neighbour downstairs hopefully just wants some peace rather than just cause trouble. I do suggest you go downstairs and listen to the noise and try to see each others points of view.

[CC1234]

Hello, I have a 999 yr lease on the ground floor. The flat above me has bare wooden floorboards and absolutely no insulation between our two dwellings. The freeholders daughter + partner + dog and soon new baby live in the flat above. I am constantly disturbed day and night, by every single sound and movement from the occupants flat above, which echos and crashes below, there is no privacy and the dog barking is a further nuisance. Generally the occupants are not 'noisy' as such (apart from the dog), but the lack of sound insulation and structure of the building is the problem - Victorian conversion. I am losing sleep (my bedroom is below their kitchen, and I have to adjust my sleeping hours to their movements) and I am suffering from increasing anxiety and tension from this ongoing intrusion. I work from home and find it difficult to concentrate with the regular disturbance, and especially when the dog is left alone and continually barks. For the past 2 years I have tried to discuss the situation amicably, but to no effect, and the relation between us has seriously deteriorated. Polite letters and requests for cooperation, over the past 2 years and recently to the freeholder are completely ignored, even when I have offered to pay for the required alterations to the floor and ceiling. Even a request to put a rug down and underlay has met with a rude refusal, with the retort that it is 'my responsibility'...and that I am 'over sensitive'. I have seen similar posts on this forum and know this is a common problem with conversion flats and bare wooden floors.

Please advise as to my rights and course of action, my lease states - right to enjoy.. without interruption etc.:confused:

Thank you very much in advance, any suggestions are appreciated. Kind Regards CC1234

[Moderator1]

Three threads on the same topic have been merged here.

[andydd]

Hello, I have a 999 yr lease on the ground floor. The flat above me has bare wooden floorboards and absolutely no insulation between our two dwellings. The freeholders daughter + partner + dog and soon new baby live in the flat above. I am constantly disturbed day and night, by every single sound and movement from the occupants flat above, which echos and crashes below, there is no privacy and the dog barking is a further nuisance. Generally the occupants are not 'noisy' as such (apart from the dog), but the lack of sound insulation and structure of the building is the problem - Victorian conversion. I am losing sleep (my bedroom is below their kitchen, and I have to adjust my sleeping hours to their movements) and I am suffering from increasing anxiety and tension from this ongoing intrusion. I work from home and find it difficult to concentrate with the regular disturbance, and especially when the dog is left alone and continually barks. For the past 2 years I have tried to discuss the situation amicably, but to no effect, and the relation between us has seriously deteriorated. Polite letters and requests for cooperation, over the past 2 years and recently to the freeholder are completely ignored, even when I have offered to pay for the required alterations to the floor and ceiling. Even a request to put a rug down and underlay has met with a rude refusal, with the retort that it is 'my responsibility'...and that I am 'over sensitive'. I have seen similar posts on this forum and know this is a common problem with conversion flats and bare wooden floors.

Please advise as to my rights and course of action, my lease states - right to enjoy.. without interruption etc.:confused:

Thank you very much in advance, any suggestions are appreciated. Kind Regards CC1234

Many leases specifically forbid wooden floors (at at least without proper insulation), does yours not say this ? Even if not the quiet enjoyment part maybe enough, there are many LVT decisions regarding wooden flooring even going as far as they do sound tests.

The problem is that if a breach has occurred it is not for you to take action, it is the freeholder and I am unlear as to what you can do to force him to take action.

Perhaps by neglecting to take action, he is in breach and you could take action (damages ?), against him ?

Andy

[leaseholdanswers]

s.

The problem is that if a breach has occurred it is not for you to take action, it is the freeholder and I am unlear as to what you can do to force him to take action.

Andy

Andydd has hit the right spot, check your lease for a clause that requires the freeholder to enforce the lease covenants for others albeit at your cost.

I had a client trustee who shared my abhorence of Satans flooring. To demonstrate to a recalcitrant "young thing- his words" he had the maintenance man go to the flat above and stomp around and move furniture.

They carpeted.

[andydd]

Andydd has hit the right spot, check your lease for a clause that requires the freeholder to enforce the lease covenants for others albeit at your cost.

I had a client trustee who shared my abhorence of Satans flooring. To demonstrate to a recalcitrant "young thing- his words" he had the maintenance man go to the flat above and stomp around and move furniture.

They carpeted.

There are many LVT decisions where they do just that, walk, stomp, talk, shout, etc and note the results.

Andy

[leaseholdanswers]

There are many LVT decisions where they do just that, walk, stomp, talk, shout, etc and note the results.

Andy

So next time anyone has a party they can say it was a noise test!:)

[andydd]

Not sure the LVT members I've seen look like party types :)

Andy

[leaseholdanswers]

Not sure the LVT members I've seen look like party types

Andy

I am sure that back in the 1950's they rocked to Bill Haley:eek:

[jeffrey]

Please advise as to my rights and course of action, my lease states - right to enjoy.. without interruption etc.:confused:

Thank you very much in advance, any suggestions are appreciated. Kind Regards CC1234
Have you had a chance, since post#53, to read some/all of this thread's previous posts?

[CC1234]

Thank you, yes I have read all these threads. My lease states "quiet enjoyment" with no specifics about the floor coverings. The ceiling lights have the required fire proofing and have passed building regs, although I realise this wont be helping the problem.

What is my legal position? and would I have a likelihood of success in the court instructing him to make the necessary sound proofing ie an insulated floor over his existing wooden floor. I am willing to share the costs. Thank you.

[quarterday]

I suggest you write to the freeholders setting out the cause of your complaint as you have here.

Quiet enjoyment in a lease doesnt actually mean what you might think it means it means enjoyment without a third party claiming right to occupancy of your flat during the period of your lease. But most leases do provide a "sweeper clause" barring any lessee causing a nuisance to the landlord or other of their leaseholders. Accordingly, you landlord is your first port of call. With a bit of luck matters will be solved before a paperchase ensues and the upstairs lessee will concede that hard echoic flooring has to be covered over with carpet/underlay. It is possible to instal acoustic protection so as to be able to have hard flooring without causing nuisance to neighbours below but it is an exceptionally fiddly job to do, will involve of course taking up all the flooring first, shimmying down joists to insert sound proofing under the top boards, and will cost the people upstairs an arm and a leg. The sound is vibrational and filling the voids between the joists will not do much, the bridge between the hard flooring and the joists has to be acoustically dampened. Its a horrible job to do, most especially retrospectively; and let's hope the people upstairs cave in and carpet over their boards.

[leaseholdanswers]

Thank you, yes I have read all these threads. My lease states "quiet enjoyment" with no specifics about the floor coverings. The ceiling lights have the required fire proofing and have passed building regs, although I realise this wont be helping the problem.

What is my legal position? and would I have a likelihood of success in the court instructing him to make the necessary sound proofing ie an insulated floor over his existing wooden floor. I am willing to share the costs. Thank you.

As Quarterday sais Quiet has nothing to do with noise, it means having paid rent etc you are left alone by the landlord/third parties.

If you refer to andydds post earlier you will see that there are various LVT cases which cover the criteria inc: construction, use, the lease, disrepair and individual sensibility.

[CC1234]

Thank you for these considerations and advice, your support is very much appreciated.

I consulted a Noise advisory service who have advised taking legal action, saying I have a good chance of success (Is this really so? How long would it take? Costs? Other considerations?).

Before I take that path, I wanted to explore all other avenues with the Freeholder - even thought this has been under discussion for 3 years, and raised in writing almost as soon as I moved in. He told me in 2007 that he was going to install an additional floor over the original boards to give better sound insulation...?

I wrote to him yet again in August 2010, after a particularly bad patch - the outcome of which was his daughter yelling at me down the phone, and her front door slammed in my face in response to my polite requests for them to stop the dog barking, and for the 2 new occupants to be aware of heavy footfall etc.

So I decided to only deal with the freeholder, and only in writing, laying out my case clearly. He has taken 4 weeks to answer, and replied today suggesting that: 1) Noise intrusion works both ways, and that I am disturbing the occupants above me, as they can hear me moving around, blinds being drawn, audible conversations etc, etc, (The difference being my sleeping space is immediately below their kitchen dining area, and I am woken and continually disturbed day and night in all areas of my flat, whilst they have 2 floors, with their bedrooms on the top floor). 2) That I should have addressed these issues before I moved in and when I had building work done. 3) That the gap between my ceiling and his floor should have been dealt with by me from below inserting 'sound deadening material' 4) That he could have 4 or 8 tenants in his property if he wanted to, and that there will be more occupants upstairs than at present (I have no problem with how many people live there as long as I cant hear them) 5) That since he has just replaced all his windows, he has no funds for other major works.

He then says that he would be pleased to hear expert advice, especially if supported by substantial guarantees...

I would welcome suggestions as to the next steps I should take? :confused:Thank you.

[andydd]

Blinds being drawn ?...did he not mention pins being dropped too ?

Andy

[leaseholdanswers]

Blinds being drawn ?...did he not mention pins being dropped too ?

Andy

And how dare they breathe!

Actually this is not unusual there are some who expect silence, and like myself in days gone by, not so fortunate that the offening owner above me was cute flitty blonde about 5 2 and so wore very high heels so it sounded like jousting woodpeckers! One pair of cute silly furry slippers led to relative quiet and no need for a lawyer!

[Gordon999]

CC1234,

Seems there is no sound insulation between the upstairs floor and your ceiling below.

I would suggest you get a competitive quote from 3 ceiling plaster board companies to "remove existing ceiling and insert insulation to underside space between joints and recover with new sound reducing board".

And then consider if you want to pay the entire cost for getting a good night's sleep.

If not, then sell your flat and buy a house.

[leaseholdanswers]

CC1234,

Seems there is no sound insulation between the upstairs floor and your ceiling below.

I would suggest you get a competitive quote from 3 ceiling plaster board companies to "remove existing ceiling and insert insulation to underside space between joints and recover with new sound reducing board".

And then consider if you want to pay the entire cost for getting a good night's sleep.

If not, then sell your flat and buy a house.

If you do this and frankly it might be chaeaper than lawyers costs, consider a ceiling that is suspended from the joists, you can use board but its not nailed directly to teh joists.

Insulation absorbs airborne noise but conducted vibration noise are reduced by reducing the contact between plaster and joist.