Is this a HMO?

[Surrey]

I have a large house with 4 bedrooms plus another couple of rooms downstairs. I have let it as an AST to 4 people (joint and several, 12 mths with break clause) but they want to sublet one of the downstairs rooms as a fifth bedroom (it's off the kitchen).
If I give permission for them to do so, am I setting myself up for problems?
Does it become a HMO?
Where can I find out what my obligations would be if it is, over and above a standard AST?
If one of the tenants lets their girlfriend move in (the rooms are all doubles) does it become a HMO?
If I give notice and the tenants also give notice to their sub-tenant but he doesn't move out, can I get the house back?
I am trying to do all the right things here - independently prepared and checked inventory, steam-cleaning carpets, etc etc, leaving the place in reasonable nick as well as getting CO monitor, smoke detectors, fire blanket in the kitchen (anything else I've forgotten?) but I don't want to find I've fallen flat on my face and set myself up for very expensive problems. I have read just about every thread on this section of the forums and can't find anything.

Thanks for your responses.

[justaboutsane]

It sounds as though you already have an HMO!! I would call the local environmental Health office and have a chat as it is better you go to them than the other way around!

[MrShed]

as a fifth bedroom (it's off the kitchen).


Does the door open direct into the kitchen? And is that the only door? If so, I don't think this is permitted - fire risk.

[red40]

Yep you already have a HMO as justaboutsane says, add another person/household and you may well fall into the depths of mandatory licensing of a HMO.

The only time it isn't a HMO is if you have only two person in two households for it to be exempt.

I would agree with justaboutsane and contact enviromental health or HMO section for a visit and get their thoughts. If you do do it wrong it can be extremely costly for you.

Below is prescribed standards for licensable HMO's

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20060373.htm

Also look up HHSRS which will give you an idea of what other 'hazards' can be found. The standards for self contained are still at draft stage and not due out for another few weeks.

[Surrey]

Yep you already have a HMO as justaboutsane says, add another person/household and you may well fall into the depths of mandatory licensing of a HMO.

The only time it isn't a HMO is if you have only two person in two households for it to be exempt.

I would agree with justaboutsane and contact enviromental health or HMO section for a visit and get their thoughts. If you do do it wrong it can be extremely costly for you.

Below is prescribed standards for licensable HMO's

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20060373.htm

Also look up HHSRS which will give you an idea of what other 'hazards' can be found. The standards for self contained are still at draft stage and not due out for another few weeks.

Thanks all, Red40 particularly, am reading and inwardly digesting the link. Also getting my cheque-book out.
After a very brief scan it seems the only thing I haven't done already is provide fire doors to the kitchen rather than normal kitchen doors, everything else appears to be adequate.

Do all houses that a bunch of student friends want to let fall into the HMO category? I know that a letting agent that I used to use put 4 unrelated students in a house on an AST and didn't make any mention at all of licencing as a HMO. (Could that be the letting agents being negligent???)

[red40]

Thanks all, Red40 particularly, am reading and inwardly digesting the link. Also getting my cheque-book out.
After a very brief scan it seems the only thing I haven't done already is provide fire doors to the kitchen rather than normal kitchen doors, everything else appears to be adequate.

Not a problem Surrey, but do check first with your EH section or HMO section, it is only once they have given you the ok that everything should be adequate.


Do all houses that a bunch of student friends want to let fall into the HMO category?

Yes they do, only if there is more than 2 of them in 2 seperate households then it becomes a HMO by definition. If there is more than five, in two seperate households in a property consisting of three or more storey and they share an amenity, then yes they fall into mandatory HMO licensing as well.

EXCEPT

If they are exempt as a HMO (excluding Part 1) under schedule 14(4) of the HA 2004 as per the link below to the Act

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/40034-at.htm#sch14

Which says the national authority may make regulations for an educational establishment, which the statutory instrument below

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20062280.htm


I know that a letting agent that I used to use put 4 unrelated students in a house on an AST and didn't make any mention at all of licencing as a HMO. (Could that be the letting agents being negligent???

It wouldn't be licensable because it would fall outside the above mandatory conditions for what is and what isn't licensable, i.e you only have 4 students, so you are 1 short for it to be licensed, also it depends on storeys, amenities and households, but no he wouldn't be negilgent in that respect, but with it being a HMO he may well have been.

[Surrey]

Not a problem Surrey, but do check first with your EH section or HMO section, it is only once they have given you the ok that everything should be adequate.



Yes they do, only if there is more than 2 of them in 2 seperate households then it becomes a HMO by definition. If there is more than five, in two seperate households in a property consisting of three or more storey and they share an amenity, then yes they fall into mandatory HMO licensing as well.

EXCEPT

If they are exempt as a HMO (excluding Part 1) under schedule 14(4) of the HA 2004 as per the link below to the Act

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/40034-at.htm#sch14

Which says the national authority may make regulations for an educational establishment, which the statutory instrument below

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20062280.htm



It wouldn't be licensable because it would fall outside the above mandatory conditions for what is and what isn't licensable, i.e you only have 4 students, so you are 1 short for it to be licensed, also it depends on storeys, amenities and households, but no he wouldn't be negilgent in that respect, but with it being a HMO he may well have been.

Point taken about getting official approval for it to be adequate, but clearly I'd like things to be in place when they come to inspect so that it'll be a rubber stamp exercise for them rather than them slapping an order on me to do stuff.

Your next bit about Schedule 14(4) worries me slightly as it was an ordinary house let through a letting agency to 4 students privately on an AST, NOT let to the educational establishment as required by Sched 14(4) so it doesn't appear to be exempt, unless of course I'm reading it wrong. It's standard practice round here AFAIK for that kind of let to happen. Otherwise the poor students would have real diffs finding somewhere to live unless landlords are prepared to get their properties licensed, and then they'd be more expensive because of extra costs of compliance which would then be passed on to the students. Oh well, that's for another discussion I suppose...

[red40]

I have a feeling you may be reading it wrong Surrey, so I will try to explain.

Schedule 14 gives details of exemptions of being a HMO (excluding Part 1).

If it isn't exempt as a HMO and meets any of the criteria set out in section 254 to 259 of the Housing Act 2004, it becomes a HMO by definition. i.e self contained flats (pre 1991), shared houses, bedsits, etc.

For the property to require a mandatory HMO licence it has to consist of as a minimum:-

5 person or more
2 seperate households or more
3 or more storeys, and
share an amenity.

So if you have a property that has

4 persons
2 seperate households
3 storey and they share a bathroom

it wouldn't need to be licensed as there are only 4 people not the required 5, it may meet the remaining criteria, households, storeys sharing of an amenity, but with 4 persons it is below the required number of 5 to become mandatory licensable.

Now just because it doesn't need a HMO licence, it would still be a HMO by definition, just not a licensable one.

[Surrey]

I have a feeling you may be reading it wrong Surrey, so I will try to explain.

D'uh! I was indeed reading it wrong, thanks for point out the "licensable" bit wonder if I bought some brown hairdye it would make any difference?

The new place doesn't meet all 4 of the criteria you list (only two floors) so is it safe to assume that although it is by definition a HMO it doesn't need to be licenced. The other place didn't because although it had 3 storeys etc it only had 4 people.

As for the new place getting a 5th person I suspect they should to do this by granting a license rather than them issuing a separate tenancy agreement. I have suggested they speak to CAB on the best way of doing this. They appear to be a good bunch (though time will tell) and I am keen for the tenancy to go smoothly so I will do all I can to meet my obligations so that if I do need to get heavy at any time I can be seen to have acted properly - I'm even helping them to move their furniture in!

[js12111]

Hi there,

can anyone help? reading the above helps a lot in definiing the hmo premises. How do they count the number of persons in the premises? (count their legs and divide by two)? or is it based on the names on the ast's.
My property could well be licensable one year and not the next depending on the tenants who take up the flats?

[red40]

How do they count the number of persons in the premises?

Usually EHO's use their fingers unti they get to ten, then they ring the office to call for an additional pair of hands.

One person is one person, if you have licensable property that differs from year to year, you would have to ere on the side of caution and most probably licence it. If you have no licence and are operating without one when the council call be prepared for the consequences, which can and are very hefty.

[js12111]

Thanks for the reply. It could prove quite difficult for some as we have seen a number of posts regarding do i don't i have an hmo, the current numbers bring it below the threshold 'great' (lucky them). six months down the track a tenants friend comes to stay and tips the property into hmo territory.