Leasehold flat: leak from flat above

[Donkin]

I live in a Victorian house separated into three flats, I have the freehold but no lease. I live in the middle and the top and bottom flats are leasehold.

The people upstairs have had a new kitchen fitted, during the fitting I noticed a leak coming through the cornice. I informed them and although the leak went away the damp patch has spread and shows no sign of drying out.
Their lease does not specify that if they cause damage they need to fix it, so of course as far as they are concerned it isn’t their problem. The lease does say they are responsible for the underside of the floor joists and upwards.

The kitchen contractor damaged the outside guttering and that may be the source of the leak but it has taken two weeks to get it repaired. So I can’t tell if this is where the water is coming from. There is no guarantee that the guttering was the source of the leak.

Now they intend to fit a ceramic tile floor. When I mention the leak all I get is “the contractor ensures us there is no leak under the floor”.
What can I say, which will delay the floor so that the leak can be investigated properly, if it proves to be that the guttering is not the source of the water.

Do I have the right to say you are responsible now fix it within x days or else I will have someone in to investigate and fix at your expense?

My only concern is that I do not want them to fit a floor just for me to rip it up to fix a leak that they know about. This will do our already poor relationship a lot of damage.

Any help appreciated

[Poppy]

I am a freeholder.

Re-read the lease. Find any iota of a clause which indicates the lessee’s damage must be paid for or rectified by the lessee.

Does the lease specify any obligations by the lessee to the freeholder, such as to keep the property in a good state of repair?

Do you have the right to enter the property for inspection purposes?

Do you have the right to enter the property to mitigate any breaches of the lease by the lessee?

Any action you take yourself for which you can produce receipts, you should add this to the service charge of both your lessees as part of your obligations to keep the property maintained.

In the end, any action you take must lead to the complete resolution of the damage to your building.

Do your very best to keep matters open and friendly. Remind your lessee that you are only concerned with the maintenance of the building as a whole and (I suppose) their investment. (Keep solicitors out of it!)

[catcuddler]

Surely the 'underside of the floor joists upwards' includes the space between the underside of the joist and the top? Their pipes will be running in this void???

[Donkin]

Thanks Poppy

Yes there is a clause "Good and Substantial repair".
Yes I can enter for inspection.
Yes I can enter to repair Breaches of Lease, but only after two months.
There is no service charge only shared costs, Half (Upstairs) Quarter Quarter.

Trouble with the damage is trying to trace the source will be hard to do. Thats why I didn't want them to put the floor down.

It is too late now they had a nice ceramic tile floor fitted over the weekend. I have written to them to state that they have two months to rectify the leak. If not I will use my powers under the Lease to repair the damage. With this I reiterated my belief that the water was from a damaged pipe under their floor. They know that is where I will start and Solicitors here we come.


Do your very best to keep matters open and friendly. Remind your lessee that you are only concerned with the maintenance of the building as a whole and (I suppose) their investment. (Keep solicitors out of it!)
You must be kidding. The kitchen Contractor damaged the guttering, now that is the first place you would repair as it would be the obvious source of the water. NO Chance.
I organised the Contractor via his Head Office to fix the guttering (for free), Upstairs told the Contractor not to bother, they would get it fixed in a week or two after the kitchen was totally finished .
This is the type of idiots I am dealing with.

[Poppy]

Thankfully, it would appear that the lease contains repairing clauses, provision for you to inspect and a way of recovering your expenses.

BEFORE resorting to solicitors - is the lessee's flat mortgaged? Contact the mortgage lender. (Remember I told you about that in your thread entitled Lease Clause Explanation started on 29 Sep 05?)

[Phil]

Hi, similar to Donkins thread and what must be a common problem for everyone, I have a leak from above from an un-cooperative tenant. They are the leaseholder (as I am) of another flat 2 floors above mine in a tower block owned by the Council and managed by a TMO (Tenants Managing Organisation - run as a co-op). As Poppy's response noted, they would be a lessee and do have a responsibility but how is this enforced?

The leak is intermittant from their shower and runs down the pipe shaft behind the loo whose plaster wall is now soaked, mouldy and rotten (I could probably get environmental health onto it but that's not the main concern here) - and probably that of the bathroom but that is tiled and I cannot see yet. I have complained to the TMO and they have correctly identified who they think is the culprit (although this may be difficult to prove, which presents problems) however the tenant declared to them (verbally) that they do have a leak every now and then but that any forced entry would be "over their dead body". Hmm.

As a leaseholder, the TMO is not quite as fussed about my welfare as they are really there to help the rental tenants, but I am not sure of my rights and what the Council (and TMO) is responsible for. I also pay the Council annual Buildings Insurance and this states cover for "escape of water from any fixed tank, pipe or appliance" so assumes this covers it. Naturally I will take this up with them (any other advice is welcomed!) but this also raises the bigger question of when I move out and rent the property out, what happens everytime there is another leak? Do I just have to repair it everytime or is there something more I can push it onto someone else's responsibility?

Thanks, Phil.

[Poppy]

Does your council have a specific department which handles leaseholders' enquiries? Write to the freeholder/council/leaseholder department (whichever you think is most appropriate). Insist that they take action to rectify the source of the problem in, say, 14 days. Inform them that you want to be reimbursed for your repairs. Keep any receipts.

In this particular case, do not approach or contact the suspected tenant.

[Phil]

Thanks for your clear response Poppy. The TMO have in fact proved very worthy and have told the tenant that they will still force entry if necessary. The council's responsibility is not clear so I will write to them (as you note) for clarification and reimbursement of any receipted repairs. The TMO say the council tend to refuse the Building Insurance applying (or, I assume, expenses) unless it is their fault - in this case it would be the tenant so that would leave me in a quandry. Any advice/experience on this would be appreciated from anyone.

I will pick up with the TMO and let you know any council response. Meanwhile, have a good New Year everyone!

[Poppy]

Due to the fact the occupants are leaseholders, there are two ways of recovering your expenses:

1. Send them a bill and give them 7 days to pay.
2. Take them to court.

You're right, the council do not have an obligation to pay in this case.

[LHNM]

The council may not have an obligation to pay but they also have no right to prevent Phil from making a legitimate claim on a buildings insurance policy which he pays for. I would suggest he contact the insurer direct.

The problem will be that the insurer will probably want written confirmation from the tenant above that the leak has been fixed before authorising the repairs to Phil's flat, which will of course require co-operation from either the council or the TMO if that tenant is difficult. It is indeed a tricky situation.

[OwnerAloner]

Hello,
I have a query similar to Phil's, however both I and the chap above own our flats. We share a freehold with 7 other flat owners.

I've had water dripping in my loft space above my bathroom for just over a month now. I've informed the man above at the first spotting of the water and he is completely uninterested as he claims he's selling his flat in 2 months. The water is now causing bubbles on the ceiling so I got a plumber to come around and assess both our flats. The leak has been sourced and is coming from poor tiles in his tub. As it's a 7 hour job, he told them he'd book a time for them to come around later. He told me he would get them to come round once he's called our building insurance to see if they will cover it, etc. Meanwhile I've more and more damage occuring on my flat. What are my rights? I will call someone in to assess water damage to my flat and to sort it out, but obviously it requires him to do something first! I'm worried he's going to try and sell first and just ignore it.
Suggestions?

Many thanks.....

[Poppy]

Read your lease. What does it say about obligations to other lessees? Does it specify a clause to enter their dwelling to remedy breaches?

[Mia]

I need some advice.

There is a small leak coming from the flat above. It is intermittent, but It is not linked to the weather.

At present no damage has been caused (due to laminate flooring), however, rather disconcertingly the water is coming in via a light fitting which is now making a buzzing noise.... which is far from ideal...

Unfortunately, I cannot stress hard enough that I do not get on with the owners of the flat above. We simply do not see eye to eye on anything. This is made worse by the fact that we both own 1/4 of the freehold to the building (there are 4 flats).

How should I proceed?

For my own safety I need this problem resolved. I can write them a polite letter, but I know they will try and blame the weather or some like. Do I open up the ceiling from my side and get a plumber in to resolve the issue? Who pays?

Also, is the freeholder responsible as the pipes are to the bathroom of the flat above which run between the joists?

HELP!

[jta]

I need some advice.

There is a small leak coming from the flat above. It is intermittent, but It is not linked to the weather.

At present no damage has been caused (due to laminate flooring), however, rather disconcertingly the water is coming in via a light fitting which is now making a buzzing noise.... which is far from ideal...

Water will often run along the joists and exit at a light fitting.

Unfortunately, I cannot stress hard enough that I do not get on with the owners of the flat above. We simply do not see eye to eye on anything. This is made worse by the fact that we both own 1/4 of the freehold to the building (there are 4 flats).

You should , at least, put a note through his door telling him there is a leak. He may be unaware of it, and it's to his benefit as well to get it fixed.

How should I proceed?

For my own safety I need this problem resolved. I can write them a polite letter, but I know they will try and blame the weather or some like. Do I open up the ceiling from my side and get a plumber in to resolve the issue? Who pays?

If they are his pipes, his insurance.

Also, is the freeholder responsible as the pipes are to the bathroom of the flat above which run between the joists?

Internal pipework is normally the responsibility of the leaseholder.

HELP!


Don't delay, water can cause a lot of damage.

[Rallysally]

If the problem is with the pipes under the floor, is that not the concern of the freeholder? It is after all outside of the demise of the leaseholder.

[dominic]

As to your legal rights against the owner of the flat above, see this thread:

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=20419&highlight=payne+rogers

This assumes the leak is coming from the above flat, and not a pipe "travelling through" between your ceiling and their floor not serving either of you.

Calling on the freeholder's insurance is probably the easiest way to deal with this however -although this may have an impact on the premium you all pay by way of service charge in subsequent years.

[jeffrey]

Usually, a lease will provide that:
a. pipes etc. serving one flat only are part of the 'demised premises' defining the flat (so T is responsible); but
b. pipes etc. serving all- or at least two or more- of the flats are part of the common parts/facilities (so L is responsible).

[Mia.]

The leak is coming from the pipes that service the flats above mine, and they are not from pipes passing thought the space to another flat.

I send a note to the owner of the flat above but did not receive any acknowledgment back. This is really stressing me out. I cannot make a claim on the insurance as there is no visible damage done.

Even if I did open up my ceiling – there is a good chance that the leek might be coming from above his floor (say under the bath where he can’t see it).

I feel that I am between a rock and a hard place. Do I have to wait until something drastic happens (such as the ceiling falling in) before anything will be done?

[jta]

If, as you say, there is water coming through a light fitting, that is emergency enough for you to call a plumber and an electrician, it's dangerous, Speak to your insurance, let them do the chasing after everything has been made safe.

[harrietb]

I am living in New Zealand & i have let my flat to a great tenant. I own the lease hold of my property and there is another lease holder in the flat upstairs. My tenant got in touch with me at the beginning of the month to tell me there is a water stain on the ceiling in the bedroom. i contacted the property manager for the upstairs flat and informed him of the problem, he told me he is no longer the manager for the property and doesn't have contact details for the owner - he did give me the owners solicitors details, whom i contacted and asked him informing him of the problem and asked him to contact his client and get in touch asap. he mailed me and said he'd passed on the message. i didn't hear from the owner at all and mailed his solicitor again several times and again on Tuesday saying that if i'd not heard from his client by friday then i would be instructing a solicitor. i also emailed the Freeholder reminding him of his responsibility as the FH to ensure the LHs are not in breach of their leases also mentioning i'd be instructing a solicitor should this problem not be address. i received an email from the owner of the upstairs flat saying i didn't have tenants in my flat (???)
he'd inspected his property and there are no leaks and that he's having problems with the property manager hence the solicitor and the property manager is still contracted until June & that i'm 'now on his back' - his words - about something that does not exist - he finished his email with the words - THESE ARE ALL FACTS. I emailed him and his solicitor informing them i'm not in the habit of making up leaks!! i also pointed out that the leak may be under the floorboards and needs further investigation. i've still not heard from the FH. i received another email from my tenant today saying the water mark is getting visibly worse daily and that there are now bits of plaster falling from the ceiling!!!!

i've emailed all concerned, FH, LH, PM and LH solicitor stating the urgency of the matter and requested them not to ignore my request.

Can anyone advise what i could do now??? i'm worried I'll have to rehouse my tenant - i've got Landlords ins. for contents so this should cover me but still i don't want to loose my good tenant due to a situationout of my control.

i might add this is the 6th leak from the upstairs property - the last 1year ago lead to the bedroom ceiling collapsing and having to be replaced. i was assured the problems had been fixed but clearly not. Do i need to instruct my solicitor to go after the FH or would it be and idea to get letter to the owner of upstairs too??

Also can anyone recommend a solicitor for this type of issue?? My father and Sister in the uk are helping me out with this problem.

many thanks

a very frustrated harriet.

[Gordon999]

Water leaks in rented flats is always a big problem. You need to take photographs as proof to show to other doubting parties.

1. Do you have a floor standing hot water tank in your flat ? ( These tanks sometimes develope a leak at soldered joint to underside of tank and water escapes through the floorboards into lower flat below without being apparent to anyone living in that flat ) .
If you do, then ask the people upstairs to check the base of their water tank for signs of dampness.

2. The other place to check for water leakage is at gap between the edge of bath unit and wall where the silicone sealant is missing and water from shower spray head escapes down wall to flat below.

You need to report the insurance company of your water leak problem but you need to properly identify the origin of the water fault before you can start to do any ceiling repairs.

[harrietb]

Thanks for your response. My tenant sent me photo's the water is beneath the boiler from the property upstairs. i know this as the 1st leak i had was when the plumber put in the boiler and didn't attach the waste pipe (!!) god only knows what else he missed if he forgot about the waste pipe. we also had leaks due the other problem you pointed out...there wasn't any sealant at all...... so they put some round the bath - also there wasn't any sealant around the kitchen sink which is above my bed - leak number 3. then the tenant put the waste pipes hanging over the kitchen sink and left the flat which flooded the place - then the ceiling collapsed.

So i know that leaks are a problem...and i know that the problems are caused by bad management of the property - what i need to know if how can i get the freeholder and owner to do something as they are all ignoring my emails......

Can anyone recommend a solicitor??

thanks

Harriet

[harrietb]

waste pipes she hung over sink we're from washing machine.....sorry.

[Handson]

Ring the FH and get them to send someone out.

[gwiddicombe]

I'm the landlord of a flat in a leasehold property and it appears that there is a leak coming from the flat above into the kitchen of my flat. My tenant has had a chat with the person above (who I understand owns the flat and isn't a tenant herself), and she is adamant that the leak isn't coming from her flat. The leak is quite bad and needs sorting.

It got worse today (for info, here has been no rain/snow in my area over the last couple of days) and again the person above is saying there is no issue that she is aware of. I don't know if it's the result of a washing machine, toilet overflow, bath, washing up bowl or whatever.

How do I go about resolving this? Obviously, the leak is coming from somewhere and it needs to be sorted. I've been in touch with the leaseholders this evening (I left a voice message but will speak with them tomorrow hopefully), but I'm wondering how to go about getting this issue resolved.

TIA,

G

[jeffrey]

I'm the landlord of a flat in a leasehold property...I've been in touch with the leaseholders...
Well, you are the leaseholder; so you've probably been in touch with the freehold reversioner F (your own landlord).
That's the best way forwards. F almost certainly maintains a block insurance policy on which to claim for repairs.
The block insurer will then have subrogation rights- i.e. to take-over the claim. It may pursue anyone whose fault caused the leak.

[gwiddicombe]

Well, you are the leaseholder; so you've probably been in touch with the freehold reversioner F (your own landlord).

Yes, sorry...that was my mistake. I am the leaseholder and I contacted the freeholder. I've been in touch with them and they're saying I need to get in touch with the flat above myself....

[jeffrey]

they're saying I need to get in touch with the flat above myself
Well, tell them that they're wrong (and to read the ****ing lease).

[Moderator1]

Several largely similar questions on separate threads have been merged into this thread (hence the repetitive nature of answers).

[gwiddicombe]

Well, tell them that they're wrong (and to read the ****ing lease).

To be honest, the lease doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me. Obviously, I had a conveyencer who did the legal work and checked the terms when I purchased the flat. Should I contact him again to ask him to write to the Freeholder?

From reading some answers in the merged thread in some cases it seems to be the Leaseholder's resposibility to proceed and resolve. In the meantime, I'll see if the Leaseholder in the flat above comes back in response to my letter.

[leaseholdanswers]

To be honest, the lease doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me. Obviously, I had a conveyencer who did the legal work and checked the terms when I purchased the flat. Should I contact him again to ask him to write to the Freeholder?

From reading some answers in the merged thread in some cases it seems to be the Leaseholder's resposibility to proceed and resolve. In the meantime, I'll see if the Leaseholder in the flat above comes back in response to my letter.

Individula elaseholders are responsible for pipework that is in and servestheoir flat.

It is primarily for them to investigate, when a neighbour below reports water ingress.

:confused:Which room is the leak in an what type of room in in the flat above, and over the leak. Let us know as there are simple checks you can do.

If the leaseholder refuses to cooperate, then the freeholder can enforce the terms of the lease, however any costs they incur, such as sending a plumber, can be recharged to the flat owner BUT the landlord will ask you to indemnify him for those costs if there is any dispute over them with the flat owner above you.

Your agent should however check the insurance plicy to see if it includes trace and access, making it a no cost option ( in most cases) for the person with a leak in their flat.

Be nice patient persitant and polite.

[gwiddicombe]

Which room is the leak in an what type of room in in the flat above, and over the leak. Let us know as there are simple checks you can do.


The leak is coming into the ceiling of my utility room. I don't know for sure if the room above mine is their utility room too (looking at the outside of the building it would seem it is, in terms of pipe work), but mine has plumbing for a washing machine etc. It's a separate small room off of the kitchen.



If the leaseholder refuses to cooperate, then the freeholder can enforce the terms of the lease, however any costs they incur, such as sending a plumber, can be recharged to the flat owner BUT the landlord will ask you to indemnify him for those costs if there is any dispute over them with the flat owner above you.


OK, thanks for the info.

[leaseholdanswers]

The leak is coming into the ceiling of my utility room. I don't know for sure if the room above mine is their utility room too (looking at the outside of the building it would seem it is, in terms of pipe work), but mine has plumbing for a washing machine etc. It's a separate small room off of the kitchen.




OK, thanks for the info.

It is a fair bet that one of the pipes or fittings are leaking, and that i the palce tostart. I suspect it will be the washing machine and therefore run a half hour wash and drain, to see.

If it is a modern high spec room with a floor drain, then you may need to dye the water to check it, before putting in a camera.

One of these days the building regulations will require this country to tank these rooms with detra or similar......