Dishonest Letting Agent

[sbaz]

Hi, been reading the posts and have learnt a lot but still would like advice on my predicament....

I was introduced to a letting agent at a friends rental property, he gave good reports about the agency . The letting agent gave me her card, I rang the office and left a message that I have a property to let.

Someone responded and booked an appointment to view my property. This same lady that I had met turned up. She was very energetic and positive, said she had many tenants ready to move in, all ready checked and vetted etc. Gave me a list of things to do to get property ready. She took my spare keys to show to prospective tenants.

A week later she said a family had agreed to move in, and brought the tenants to my residential house after office hours as they could not make it any other time. People seemed pleasant enough, and I had verbal confirmation from agent that she had done all necessary checks. I still asked to see some documentation, and she assured me she would drop it off next day. We signed AST agreement for a 12month term.

The tenants gave 1 month advance rent, and deposit. Agent took her commission for the year up front out of the monies.

That's when her demeanour changed. She stopped responding to our calls, she was never at the agency, then she suddenly said she had left that agency, but would still be dealing with my property. I was not happy about this and asked for all the paperwork, inventory etc and contact details for tenants to secure deposit in a scheme. After alot of pestering she finally brought the inventory (unsigned by tenants), a copy of driving licence photocard and bank statements. She took the inventory back with her and said it would be returned signed once all the outstanding work in the property had been done. (things like, fixing an interior door handle, and providing more hooks for a curtain etc, very minor). I found this to be very petty and just an excuse to not give me the inventory. She has since become very aggressive and rude,and keeps saying I am stressing her out with all my questioning....

Before signing agreement she had confirmed rent would be paid via standing order. After exchange, she said tenants wanted to pay cash and that she would collect monthly from them and pass to us. I did not agree to this, but she would not budge and insisted it had to be this way....

I have since looked at the documents provided and have found that the signature on the DL is different to the one on the agreement. I have also had it confirmed from the police that the copies of ID provided are both fake!.....I haven't told the agent I know this, I want to know where I stand and my rights before I do this....

I have since been to the letting agency physically and it is always locked, no-one there.

I wanted to ask you learned people, if the tenancy agreement has been signed under false pretences, is it still valid? Is this a civil matter or fraud? can / should the police do anything? (they have told me to seek legal advice and keep trying to speak to the manager at the agency). Should I just wait and see if she does pay the rent, and take it from there?

[johnboy]

Was the deposit protected correctly?

[sbaz]

I have registered with DPS, but since the difference in signatures and fake documents, I am apprehensive as to what to do if the tenant is not who he claims to be?....I have a mobile number for the tenant which he never answers, and does not return calls. He is never home when I visit the property.

I have a feeling the agent and tenant are both in on this scam, and may be subletting...?

[Paul_f]

She was very energetic and positive, said she had many tenants ready to move in, all ready checked and vetted etc. This doesn't add up because no agent carries out reference checks on all applicants before they have decided upon a property to let.

[sbaz]

should I serve a section 8 under point 17 and ask to see original ID 's to prove the agreement is valid?

I have registered with DPs but have not logged the money yet. Do I need to do this to serve the above notice? it has only been one week since this fiasco started so am still within my 14 days....

[sbaz]

This doesn't add up because no agent carries out reference checks on all applicants before they have decided upon a property to let.

As you've probably guessed I'm new to letting so would not have known this. But I paid her for a service which she did not provide, instead has conned me....

[property mongrel]

Have you established the identity of the letting lady?

Is she or was she anything to with the letting agency?

Was there, is there a letting agency?

Do you know the names of the tenants, do you know who they are?

What do you know about them?

What did your friend, who gave good reports about the agency, say when you told him about this saga?

What documents do you have copies of at this time?

On the facts presented by you thus far, it sounds as though you may have been had, or at least it is all very odd, but to determine exactly what is going on requires more information.

pm

[jeffrey]

should I serve a section 8 under point 17 and ask to see original ID 's to prove the agreement is valid?
Do you mean a s.8 Notice on [discretionary] ground 17 in Schedule 2 to the Housing Act 1988?
If so, use that only if you're able to prove falsity- not just as a 'fishing' exercise.

[leaseholdanswers]

Just a thought - with the letting agency locked up and her affairs in apparent less than perfect order, is she the real tenant? Perhaps use a tracing service to see who is registered, camp out and watch the property, but do not approach anyone...

I have in the past contacted the electricity supplier, and if you were ever named on it with an address of your own, you may ask to check that the new occupant has taken on the supply as you haven't yet received a final bill for the void period. They may let slip the information...

[Springfields]

Who did you sign a contract with? Has your friend had a similar experience?

With them insisting on cash on a monthly basis, fake IDs and a seeming false business I would be taking to HMRC to see if they would investigate for money laundering.

[sbaz]

I finally got to see the director at the agency, the rep I saw has not been seen for the past month. She only worked there 2 months. I was one of the last clients she dealt with before leaving. At my initial meeting he seemed shocked and was all for reporting her for stealing his clients, was very helpful and assured us he would get this sorted. He said he wanted to get the reps side of story before taking further. He said we had been conned and to expect the worst.
Later he changed his tune after speaking to rep, she suddenly had done nothing wrong, the fake docs were not her doing, they were given to her by the tenant. He even said the tenant was not as bad as he had previously thought and that he would take over the management of my property and set up standing order for rent. He added that he did not know the tenant and it was not the person named on the agreement, and that he would meet them and verify them.

I am not satisfied, the tenants and the rep have made false statement and provided

[sbaz]

I am not satisfied, the tenants and the rep have made false statement and provided fake docs so cannot be trusted. I told director that I wanted these people out of my property because I could not trust them. He said he would geve me his word that they would pay the rent and look after my property, and if I still wanted them out he would arrange that for the next monthly term but asked me not to take legal action or go to police?
I am very reluctant to trust him as I think he is protecting this flex rep for some reason, he now won't say a bad word against her?

[sbaz]

In response to PM and Jeffrey, rep gave me copies of driving licence photocard and a barclays bank statement. Bothe confirmed fake by local police station, person named on dl with that dob does not exist, and statement has funny fonts in name and address area and dates within transactions are conflicting , it's dated for period sept to oct but has December 2010!
Jeffrey would this warrant an s8 under point 17?

[jeffrey]

It does sound like it, I think, but remember that g17 is only discretionary.

[sbaz]

I am still within my 14 days to protect deposit but not for long. The agency director has not got back to me with the real identity of the tenants, should I just protect the deposit on the false names as in the agreement to cover myself in case they are hoping to delay me so they can claim 3x deposit?

Do they have to produce identification when claiming back deposit from DPS? In which case they will only have fake documents.....?! :rolleyes: totally confused and flabbergasted that this is happening....

[Snorkerz]

I am still within my 14 days to protect deposit but not for long. The agency director has not got back to me with the real identity of the tenants, should I just protect the deposit on the false names as in the agreement to cover myself in case they are hoping to delay me so they can claim 3x deposit?

Do they have to produce identification when claiming back deposit from DPS? In which case they will only have fake documents.....?! :rolleyes: totally confused and flabbergasted that this is happening....I would hold fire, although you are supposed to protect within 14 days, in reality you can do it at any time with DPS.

So wait until the situation is clearer - but don't forget to do it. You are not currently in danger of being sued for 3x providing you protect or return the deposit before any such claim comes to court.

[property mongrel]

sbaz, do you know all the facts about the letting, the agent and the tenants yet?

At the time of the meeting was the "letting lady" you met working for the letting agency or not? This is important as it will help identify who is responsible for what in the scenario. If she was employed by the agency then they have a responsibility, if she was free lance but claiming to be employed by them then she may have comitted fraudulent acts. You seem to be saying that she may have worked for them but may not? Or she may have not been seen there for a while? In any case an employed letting agent would not normamlly take her clients with her to the next agency or her next job.

As for the letting agency manager who on the one hand states that you have been conned and the next day says all is well but please do not go to the police, what is his part in this?

Did you sign any agreement forms engaging her or the agency to find you tenants? Who is your agreement with?

What are their terms and conditions, what steps do they say they will take to ensure you get good genuine, bona fide tenants?

What exactly is fake about any documentation that you have? You seem to be saying that you went to the police with what turns out to be a fake driving licence and they have asked you to speak to the Letting Agency? Is this correct?

I can not see how a tenancy obtained fraudulently by a letting agent that has apparently lied to you and as yet we do not know what she is up to, with tenants who provide fake documents, who you do not know the true identity of, can have the same rights as legitimate referenced tenants with a properly drawn up and signed tenancy agreement?

And as such I can not see why you should worry about protecting the deposit?

How did all this happen so quickly to you? It sounds as this has all happened verbally after a chat?

If the letting lady was employed by the agency when all this happened and your agreement was with them, through her, even verablly, then I believe that her employer may have vicarious liability for the situation. IE: they are responsible for her actions and faults or errors.

pm

[sbaz]

[QUOTE]At the time of the meeting was the "letting lady" you met working for the letting agency or not? This is important as it will help identify who is responsible for what in the scenario.

Yes, she is currently off sick with mental problems (she is on drugs). But officially still on their books as an employee, as confirmed by the manager.


As for the letting agency manager who on the one hand states that you have been conned and the next day says all is well but please do not go to the police, what is his part in this?

He is protecting her? Maybe she has given him a cut of her illegal earnings, and free drugs?


Did you sign any agreement forms engaging her or the agency to find you tenants? Who is your agreement with?

She kept saying she will bring her service agreement paperwork for us to sign from the agency but kept forgetting to actually bring it. So it was only verbal, we signed nothing with her.


What are their terms and conditions, what steps do they say they will take to ensure you get good genuine, bona fide tenants?

She told us all tenants are reference checked, checkable 5 year address history with good credit history. Rent will be paid via standing order.


What exactly is fake about any documentation that you have? You seem to be saying that you went to the police with what turns out to be a fake driving licence and they have asked you to speak to the Letting Agency? Is this correct?

The person named on the driving licence does not exist, but the picture is of man who came to my house posing as the tenant. the people in our property are thugs on drugs (we have been camping out and watching them), identity unknown. Agency manager says he has met them and none of them are the person named on the TA. I have since been back to the police and updated them but they still won't do anything, They say its up to the letting agent if he wants to take action against his employee?


I can not see how a tenancy obtained fraudulently by a letting agent that has apparently lied to you and as yet we do not know what she is up to, with tenants who provide fake documents, who you do not know the true identity of, can have the same rights as legitimate referenced tenants with a properly drawn up and signed tenancy agreement?

What are my rights in this case? what can I do?


And as such I can not see why you should worry about protecting the deposit?

Thanks I won't be protecting it.


How did all this happen so quickly to you? It sounds as this has all happened verbally after a chat?


The letting lady had been telling us this family were ready to move in and had been rushing us for the past two weeks before the signatures, to get furniture in and finish off refurb, she said the couple were both working, their refs were very good, she had all paperwork back at the office.


If the letting lady was employed by the agency when all this happened and your agreement was with them, through her, even verablly, then I believe that her employer may have vicarious liability for the situation. IE: they are responsible for her actions and faults or errors.

Day after signing agreement she starting saying she had left the agency. In which case the agency is liable.

The manager is trying to persuade me to let the people stay, but I have told him that I want them out otherwise I will go to the police, and take legal action, then he gets defensive and says fine if you want take it into your own hands then I will step aside and let you get on with it. I think he is in on this scam, please advise what I can do to get these people out...why won't the police do anything when this a clear cut fraud and deception case?

[property mongrel]

In your situation I would go to the local police and report all that you know to be fact about forged documents, driving licence and bank statements etc. I would leave them a written copy of all the information you have at this stage. Make a note of the name and rank of the person you speak to.

If the police refuse to get involved you can write to DVA Swansea regarding the forged driving licence, and mention the fact that the police were not interested, DVA should take it seriously.

You can contact the bank concerned regarding the forged bank statements, again tell them that you have reported this to the police, they should take this seriously.

The police may not be interested in proceeding against the letting lady for employment breaches, but you may be able to proceed against the agency as they are her employers. Are they a member of any professional body?

I would go and see a solicitor, and see if they can write a letter to the authorities for you. Solicitors are a lot harder to fob off than uninformed members of the public.

I do appreciate that this situation may be distressing for you and it may be difficult to comprehend why someone does not take some action but if you can calmly explain your concerns in writing to the police as well as verbally you may get some interest. Try to keep what you say confined to what you know, forged documents, agreement insisted on being in cash etc, false identities of tenants as yet not established, and do not speculate on what you think might be going on, "the agency manager is getting a cut of her illegal money or free drugs", "the property is being used by thugs on drugs" unless you know this to be true. Rather than spur the police or anyone else into action this sort of speculation will undermine your credibility.

pm

[sbaz]

pm thanks for your response. with your advice I have written to dvla and bank, enclosing copies of docs. I will also go once again to police.

what could the agency manager do if he was on my side and honest? would it be legal action or could he force these people out?

by my giving them S.8 notice under G 12 & 17 would I be confirming they have a valid agreement? As they are not tenants should I evict them as squatters?

[property mongrel]

I can not advise on how to get the occupants out, I am not familiar enough with landlord v tenant law to give an informed opinion that would guarantee a result without problems for you. Inappropriately obtaining possession could be costly.

If they are paying you rent I don't see how they can be squatting? This appears to me to be similar to someone who hires a car on forged/false documents, an offence of obtaining a service by deception, despite the fact that the service, the car or in your case the property, has been or is being paid for.

As for protecting the deposit, if by accepting payment even after you have been conned, and you are still accepting payment maybe you have created some sort of tenancy? I don't know. Maybe one of the more qualified and experienced people here can help?

I would see what action you can take against the letting agency and the manager via their head office.

Perhaps you should now consult a suitably experienced and qualified solicitor who knows about vicarious liability and letting law? There are some advertising on this site.

pm

[sbaz]

Thanks for your advice pm, I am negotiating with the agency manager and will see what he comes up with to sort this. (even though he has not answered his phone all day today!!)

Failing all, I will just wait if rent is paid and take action the usual way if not.....:mad: