Using deposit to pay final month's rent

[Joe Cool]

Hi - I am guarantor for an AST, my son is tenant. He has been ripped off by 2 previous landlords keeping his deposit unfairly.

His tenancy ends on 31st March. I've advised him not to pay the rent for the last month and tell the landlord's agent to take it out of the deposit. The flat is in excellent condition - no dilapidations, so the remainder of the deposit (£200) will be ample to cover any genuine deductions.

Questions:

1. Am I liable as guarantor to pay the rent on his behalf even though we're in the last month?
2. Can the landlord force either of us to make up the deposit to what it was before the rent was taken out?
3. Can I claim against the landlord if he tries to keep the deposit unfairly by inventing spurious fees for late payment of rent?

Thanks

Joe

[Ericthelobster]

Hi - I am guarantor for an AST, my son is tenant. He has been ripped off by 2 previous landlords keeping his deposit unfairly. His tenancy ends on 31st March. I've advised him not to pay the rent for the last month and tell the landlord's agent to take it out of the deposit. The flat is in excellent condition - no dilapidations, so the remainder of the deposit (£200) will be ample to cover any genuine deductions.
That's your opinion - if there's genuinely no dilapidation, there should be no deductions, full stop. Do you have any reason to suppose the current landlord will not play fair with the deposit, just because of previous bad experience? Fortunately the current landlord has had enough nous to set the deposit at more tham one month's rent, so that when your son breaks the terms of the AST by witholding the last months' rent payment, at least the landlord still has some come-back.


1. Am I liable as guarantor to pay the rent on his behalf even though we're in the last month?Well, you know full well that your son is liable to pay the rent in the last month, so if you are his guarantor and he defaults, then I think you have the answer to your question?


2. Can the landlord force either of us to make up the deposit to what it was before the rent was taken out?You mean legal action? Obviously there's no other recourse open to him, is there? Given that your son will be long gone before any such action could be taken, then legal action would be a non-starter (providing the £200 remaining deposit proves to be adequate to cover any delapidation). So basically, in reality there's nothing your current landlord can do, apart from say, refusing to provide a reference to a future prospective landlord.


3. Can I claim against the landlord if he tries to keep the deposit unfairly by inventing spurious fees for late payment of rent?Depends what the contract says, doesn't it? I would suggest that your proposed behaviour will seriously get up the landlord's nose, and he will be very likely to charge any fees he is allowed to under the contract (whereas for a genuine one-off late payment, most landlords probably wouldn't worry about it.) You might also find that the landlord will be ultra-rigourous about checking the inventory and looking for any damage, compared to what he would do if you played by the rules.

[Joe Cool]

Thanks Eric – I understand what you’re saying. But from my son’s previous experience and what I’ve read on this forum it would be naïve of us to trust the landlord to be fair and honest. I’m not overly concerned about getting up his nose. I’d rather go down this route and put £200 at risk than do nothing and put £850 at risk.

[Paul_f]

Joe Cool.


If the landlord unfairly keeps your son's deposit then go the lawful route and issue a summons through your local small claims court.
Walking away from past situations means you're easily fobbed off.
I agree you should not deduct anything from the deposit in lieu of the last month's rent as it may forbid it in the AST and you could be in breach.
You could be provoking the landlord into issuing proceedings against you in your capacity as guarantor and can assure you, you would probably lose!
I would be very aggrieved to think because of previous adverse experiences you expect all landlordsto behave dishonourably.
Make sure your son takes photos and any other good evidence of condition on the day he vacates to back-up any contentious issues.
The onus of proof is on the landlord to show dilapidations - not on your son.

[lawstudent]

Joe Cool - So, because your son says he was "ripped off" by previous landlords you advise him to breach his obligations towards his current landlord. I don't know about your son, but I cannot imagine there would be many landlords who would want a tenant like you.

[Andy Parker]

I would approach the LL,raise your concerns with him and arrange for him to inspect the premises a month early.As a LL myself I would be happy with this arrangement as long as I had a notice to quit for the day your son is leaving.In practice I would not sue for loss of last month's rent if the deposit covered the dilapidations as you could sue if I also kept the deposit (neither party gains by this).About 25% of LLs hang on to the deposit and this has been such a problem that it has necessitated a change in the law to protect tenants' monies.

[Joe Cool]

Andy Parker

A good suggestion, thanks.

I'll try to arrange an inspection with the LL next week before the rent is due. I'll try to be there and discuss our concerns. When the LL sees the flat in good condition he might agree to take the rent out of the deposit.

If not............




Joe

[Paul_f]

Andy you might as a landlord inspect a month before the end of an AST but it's not going to be any good as proof if the tenant has a rave with all his disreputable mates, and you're left with a trashed property after he moves out. Please don't tell me it's unlikely to happen, I know that. You wouldn't be able to do anything about it though if you had agreed with the tenant that everything was OK. Courts do not like sloppy procedures and that's exactly what you're advising Joe Cool to try and get away with. If the landlord has any sense he won't want to know!

There's only one time to inspect and that is when the tenant leaves or has left! QED.

:(

[Joe Cool]

Paul f

So you're saying that I should believe that the LL is honourable. i.e. not one of the 25% that Andy refers to.

But the LL should believe that I am dishonourable.

:confused:

[Jennifer_M]

Joe Cool, if your son has done nothing that would justify his deposit not being given back then there's no reason to use the deposit as the last month rent.

If the LL is being unreasonable all you have to do is go to small claim courts and get the money back without having to breach any agreement.

You say previous LL took money without reason ? Why didn't you sue them ? If it was me, I'd sue !!
You say you can't trust the LL because of other LLs ? Why should the LL trust you then ? How would you like it if the LL acted badly with you and your son based on experience he's had with previous tenants ? Seems a bit unfair...

If you didn't have any other solution I'd understand but here you can sue IF the LL doesn't send the deposit back within a reasonable delay. So do things properly.

[Ericthelobster]

About 25% of LLs hang on to the deposit and this has been such a problem that it has necessitated a change in the law to protect tenants' monies.Is that 25% plucked out of the air, or is it real?
Also, what is the change in law which you mention? (this is a genuine question, I don't know!)

[Andy Parker]

The 25% figure is taken from a BBC news item a few months ago outlining the changes.From the summer of 2006 LLs will have to hand over deposits to authorised schemes,which will be independent,within 14 days of receiving same.The Government will set up approved schemes.This system works well in other countries and allows the deposit to be used as the deposit for the property to which the tenant is moving.

[Joe Cool]

This is probably the one you're thinking of.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3701625.stm

[lawstudent]

Joe

Pay heed to the excellent advice given by Paul f and Jennifer m. From what you say, your own lack of trust in landlords propels you into behaving in an untrustworthy way (and into recommending your son to do likewise) which, in turn, means that landlords will, quite rightly, not trust you or your son.

whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap

[Andy Parker]

Joe
A National Tenant Deposit Scheme was included in the Housing Act 2004 so the changes are definitely coming into force.In your situation I would stick to my guns if your LL insists on full payment of the last month's rent (that's a bit dodgy in itself).If you owe your LL £600 and he owes you £800 who's taking whom to court?To use lawstudent's Biblical imagery there might be some gnashing of teeth on your LL's part but that's about all!

[lawstudent]

ask not for whom the teeth gnasheth; they gnasheth for thee :eek:

[slyrubies]

lol lawstudent, nice quote mate =p

Well as a LL and a tenant (I am currently both, weird but true!). The whole point of a deposit is that you are living in a LL's property (which is always going to be worth the hell of a lot more than all your rent and deposits put together) and that is in effect security in exchange for having access to the LL's biggest security ever (ie his property).

Think about it for a moment, you may complain that the LL has a few hundred pounds of your money, but ultimately you are sitting in and occupying his property worth 100's of thousands of pounds. So I think him holding your deposit till the very end (which is the MAIN reason it is needed, ie at the end when the LL can inspect the property AFTER you have moved out) is not only reasonable but necessary for multiple reasons.

Your previous bad experiences can and should be resovled legally. If someone owes you money, do something to get it back! If you don't do anything about it, then you must accept that is your decision not to... Don't pass on your troubles to the next guy you deal with who is innocent to your past situation.

There is nothing wrong with trying to protect yours or your son's interests but please try and find a legal way to do so. Start with trying to get your previous deposits back, after all you know what the property addresses are... Then follow the good advice given here, take pics of the property before and after if you are worried.

Is there an inventory for this property? Have you signed it? Is the property in a good condition now?

DANGER STORY RE DEPOSITS -

I have actually read a news story of a couple who rented out a broken down barn a couple of years ago and upon moving out were charged ten's of thousands of pounds to renovate the barn and the wording of their agreement supported it. I can't remember the exact outcome but I think it ended up with them owing in excess of £20k to the LL, even though the place was a dump when they took it...

Always try be nice first, give people a chance to do the right thing, only if they don't THEN start the fight. Don't start the fight before you know they are even fighting... ie don't lower yourself to their level, cos you are becoming the type of person that you probably most dislike...

"do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

:D

[winston smith]

The balance of risk is the problem. Without a deposit the LL has all the risk. The LL transfers the risk to the tenant by holding the deposit.

The solution is obvious – balance the risk. The impending government scheme seems to do that with a third party holding the deposit.

Why has the sector failed to clean up its act?
Why has the Government had to step in?

Answer those questions and you'll understand why otherwise honest tenants continue to go into rent arrears in the last month.

[lawstudent]

wrong - the risk is not transferred to the tenant, only a small part is (the amount of the deposit) - some tenants do thousands of pounds of damage to property and leave thousands of pounds of rent arrears - the deposit rarely even covers the tip of that financial iceberg

and, far from protecting tenants, getting third parties involved in deposit schemes will, on balance, cost them more.

many (perhaps most) landlords repay deposits in full even if there is a small amount of damage - statutorily appointed 3rd parties will have a legal liability to make tenants pay for ALL damage

[slyrubies]

yeah agreed completely lawstudent =p for example... as a landlord, one of my recent properties cost me the following:

I paid 30k for a cash up front deposit
I paid 5k for a new kitchen
plus another 5k for decorating/repairst etc...

That's a good 40k direct from my pocket. No loans or virtual mortgage money, we are talking real cash here. The actual purchase price was 200k and I haven't even gone into purchase costs, mortgage costs, tax etc...

Now you want me to have someone living in this property without ANY deposit when they move out? You seriously think that would be fair that they have access to all this security (eg the 40k I invested) and they leave me a deposit of say ZERO value?

nope!

[sport]

So, the contract says the tenants are obligated to make the property available for showing in the final month of tenancy. That's ok, they disappear on holiday so you can't. And, they're obligated to pay their final month's rent - but they don't, and say just use the security deposit instead. And they're obligated to give a month's notice to quit -- but they don't, they just stop paying the rent and then abandon the property.

SO, WHAT CAN YOU DO? Insurance doesn't answer these issues. Can you put definite penalties into the contract for these items, which the court will then enforce? Tenants will sign anything in the initial contract -- since they don't intend to abide by it anyway.

[Andy Parker]

sylrubies,lawstudent this is woolly thinking.If you have the type of tenants who will trash your property whether or not you have a deposit is pretty incidental.The damage done may well be titanic in proportion.The deposit scheme will prevent LLs from snaffling the tenant's hard cash from his pocket.

[Paul_f]

For God's sake read the other threads first as this question is asked about twice a week it seems...but here goes anyway!


You can't enforce your viewing clause on the tenant!
If they have gone on holiday that's tough!
If they haven't paid the last month's rent then sue them in the small claims court if you can locate them.
If the fixed term is coming to an end they don't have to give you any notice - only if it's now periodic.
:(

[missel]

Hi and thanx for some of your answers
Perhaps i will put my question in a more simple way.

What happens if the Tenant wants to use the deposit to Pay for the last month ?
It means that i can expect damages till the last day, which i'll have to pay myself ..
How would you act in this case ?

Thank you

[Energise]

There is not a lot you can do about it, if there are damages to be paid for when they move out you can make a claim through the small claims court. You need to know your current tenants new address to file a claim and it may not be worth it if they have moved far away as you would have to go to their local court for the hearing, and even if you win you still might not get any money.

[Paul_f]

If it doesn't specifically exclude rent from the deposit in the agreement wording, such as that it can be used only against dilapidations or damages then you are stumped! Next time you know what to do. Court action is futile unless your AST is squeaky clean! ;)

[Ericthelobster]

What happens if the Tenant wants to use the deposit to Pay for the last month ?
It means that i can expect damages till the last day, which i'll have to pay myself ..
How would you act in this case ?Well, I would think to myself "Hmm, next time I must remember to ask for 6 week's rent as deposit rather than a month". It doesn't solve the problem entirely, in that it may still only leave you with 2 week's worth of deposit, but also it does at least break the obvious symmetry of the "1 months' notice = 1 months' rent = 1 months' deposit" which I think causes this problem to happen so often.

[missel]

i have tried that already, but with so much competition people just turn to some other cowboy landlord, that fixes the price down to two weeks only..
Paragon does that though !!

[LoneSculler]

I am in a quandry. I have had a one year AST which is due for renewal at the end of October. However, I have given up hope on being able to deal with my landlord in a reasonable fashion. My 'landlord' is actually one of a set of four trustees who are supposed to manage the house but who failed to visit it for a number of years and who were scammed by a previous tenant who was subletting to me. They found out about the sublet when the bathroom started to fall into the kitchen....

I have redecorated the house at the 'landlords' request but when I have asked for the landlord to take responsibility for the state of the place I have been rebuffed and slandered and told I am a 'difficult' tenant!!!! Things came to a head when in the summer the boiler failed and we had no hot water for two weeks as the immersion system had been removed i.e. there was no back up system. My landlord was on holiday for those two weeks and was uncontactable and had not left anyone else to act on his behalf. We thus had to act for him and proceeded to have an amazing situation occur with British Gas, who told me they couldn't discuss the appointments they were making to fix the boiler with me, only with the landlord, and 'lost' parts because they'd been picked up the wrong apprentice etc etc. It was not my reponsibility as a tenant to sort out the boiler but if I hadn't we wouldn't have had hot water for a month. Because of the expense - I had to take days of work, phone calls, discomfort in having to beg baths and showers off freinds etc etc - we withheld rent. This was because our landlord had failed in his obligation to provide us with facilities and 'quiet enjoyment'.

The landlord has a very large file detailing the two weeks of hell I was put through, and as a result will be receiving compensation from British Gas (I have no idea of the amount). Thus I think his demand that I pay back the withheld rent is unfair. Added to this the landlord has also had an altercation with our neighbour and again blames me.

I therefore told him verbally, which I have backed up with a short e-mail, that as both parties do not wish to renew the contract on the 31st of this month I will be leaving. My problem is the deposit and the rent. If I pay my last months rent then I KNOW I won't receive my deposit in full. I would have to take the landlord to court and fight him tooth and nail for it. I have been advised by a friend who is a landlord of 25 properties to use my deposit as my last months rent, simply because for rent arrears he would need two months in arrears to serve a notice. Also because I have 18months worth of receipts for the work I have carried out on renovating the property (though we still have polystyrene ceiling tiles in the kitchen) and e-mails from him agreeing to pay me for that work (which he has never done) my friend has advised me that if he does try to take me to court he would have a very weak case.

So what do I do? Pay the last months rent and never see my deposit, or let him have the deposit and hope he has the good grace to see that he's lost a good tenant?

Catch 22....

[MrShed]

Theres no question in this situation....dont pay the last months rent. Then you are sorted. Yes he could sue you, however, you can also countersue for the amount of work you have done. I do not believe he is in as weak a position as your friend says, but he certainly isnt in a strong position, and you have a number of points which should reduce any amount awarded anyway. This is all academic, as there is little question in my mind that they will not end up suing you. I would say withhold the rent, and write a letter stating that they are to use the deposit as the last months rent. I would probably also put why I am taking this action(lack of payment for work done etc). Be careful though....check your AST first to ensure there is no term stating that the deposit is for dilapidations only, or is not to be used for rent.

[MrWoof]

I have 18months worth of receipts for the work I have carried out on renovating the property (though we still have polystyrene ceiling tiles in the kitchen) and e-mails from him agreeing to pay me for that work (which he has never done) my friend has advised me that if he does try to take me to court he would have a very weak case.Don't pay your last month's rent, if he threatens you, threaten him back with the emails promising payment. Look again at your tenancy agreement, if there is no clause allowing him to use your deposit for rent arrears, you can sue him for its return, he would have to then sue you for the last month's rent, that leaves him in court with your emails. As a landlord, this is not a position I would want to be in.

[LoneSculler]

Hello and thank you for the prompt responses. As there could be said to be no dilapidations to the house (we have redecorated for the landlord and there is new double glazing, simply because local kids were shooting pellets at the old windows - again something I had to arrange and then took a day off work to oversee!!!), what would my landlord have to state regarding the use of the deposit as rent?

My landlord didn't actually have keys to the property until Friday 30th September, and I have witnesses to his verbal onslaught in the kitchen of the property on that day. I am just worried he is now going to harass me for the remainder of the month!

[Jennifer_M]

If he shows up at the house by surprise and is abusive just call the police. Harassement isn't something a landlord wants to be caught doing.

[MrShed]

Hello and thank you for the prompt responses. As there could be said to be no dilapidations to the house (we have redecorated for the landlord and there is new double glazing, simply because local kids were shooting pellets at the old windows - again something I had to arrange and then took a day off work to oversee!!!), what would my landlord have to state regarding the use of the deposit as rent?


Basically some landlords put in their AST "Deposit can only be used against dilapidations in the property". This clause is put in purely to prevent people from doing what I have suggested and use the damage deposit as the last months rent. That said of course, it is not a physical barrier, just a legal barrier, and if he sued you for the last months rent you could countersue for your costs in redecorating etc. All the difference it makes is that he is guaranteed to win his claim, but you may still win overall. So in practice it makes not a great deal of difference.

[ALIEN1X]

Hi,

I have a fully managed property via letting agents. The tenant has not paid the final month rent, and the tenancy expires next week.

My agent states they have made every effort to try and collect the final payment, but the tenant claims to have no money and is asking it to be deducted from the deposit held.

However, the deposit is for damages if any etc. I have had trouble getting the previous 2 months rent from the tenant, at the end the Garrentour had to pay up.

My agent advsies me that I have to rely on the deposit now for this final month?

However, if everything is ok during check out, then fine, but if there are damages that the deposit won't cover then I can I take this to small claims court?

I do have rent insurance (agent as policy holder) but I think that only kicks in if there is 2 months of rent not paid?And the agent is trying to avoid that route.

Regards
Alien1x

[MrShed]

Yes you can take them to small claims. In the event of there being any damage, make the deductions as appropriate and return the remainder of the deposit, notifying them that you will be suing for the rent. Just ensure you get a forwarding address!

[pms]

Mr Shed: I tend to disagree wth you there if the rent is up to date( and remember 2 things) if the rent is in advance then you haven't lost out plus you have the contngency of the months depoists so where are you coming from you haven't lost out

[MrShed]

pms sorry that made absolutely no sense. How can a tenant be in arrears and yet up to date?

[davidjohnbutton]

I can see what he means:-

Rent due 1st January 2006 for a month in advance - paid by tenant
Rent due 1st February 2006 for a month - paid by tenant
Tenant gives notice on 28th February - expires 31st March
Rent due 1st March for month in advance - NOT PAID

at this point the tenant is in arrears of 1 month

Deposit of 4 weeks rent then used as payment for March 1st to 31st

now, because the deposit has been used as rent, the landlord has broken even - he is not owed any rent at all but he may now be owed money for any damages which this deposit was supposed to protect against.

That help????

[pms]

I can see what he means:-

Rent due 1st January 2006 for a month in advance - paid by tenant
Rent due 1st February 2006 for a month - paid by tenant
Tenant gives notice on 28th February - expires 31st March
Rent due 1st March for month in advance - NOT PAID

at this point the tenant is in arrears of 1 month

Deposit of 4 weeks rent then used as payment for March 1st to 31st

now, because the deposit has been used as rent, the landlord has broken even - he is not owed any rent at all but he may now be owed money for any damages which this deposit was supposed to protect against.

That help????

DJB: At least we agree on something

[Worldlife]

I prefer to follow pms logic on this one!

The rent is in contractual arrears.

Some AST agreements have a clause within them enabling the the landlord to use the deposit to meet rent arrears. I'm not sure that it would be wise for the landlord to invoke that clause if he was applying for possession on the grounds of rent arrears!

Add another vote in favour of David's point concerning the situation at the end of a tenancy.


now, because the deposit has been used as rent, the landlord has broken even - he is not owed any rent at all but he may now be owed money for any damages which this deposit was supposed to protect against.

[Energise]

"Some AST agreements have a clause within them enabling the the landlord to use the deposit to meet rent arrears"

Paul_f has previously pointed out having that clause when you have rent gaurantee insurance may not be a good idea as the insurance company could use that clause to reduce an arrears claim.

[Ericthelobster]

Some AST agreements have a clause within them enabling the the landlord to use the deposit to meet rent arrears.This prompted me to go and check the wording on my own AST agreements, and they do include this wording. But am I to understand that if the wording is not included, then the LL would be obliged to return the balance of the deposit to a departing tenant who had left without paying his final month's rent, and then sue the tenant for that full month's rent? Seems an unlikely scenario to me!

[MrShed]

Would the landlord have a right of offset in this case? Tenant owes landlord rent, landlord owes tenant deposit, therefore balances out?

[davidjohnbutton]

In my opinion, there would be a right of offset as you say - but this would have to be a decision of court on the individual claims made by each party.

[ALIEN1X]

Well I will have to wait until next weekend when my agent checks the tenanat out and produces a checkout report. I will be inspecting the property once the tenanat has left on the day.

I have photographic evidence of the condtion of the property just before the tenanat had moved in. I understand I have allow for ware and tare,but keeping my fingers crossed that there is no damage so the final rent can be deducted from the deposit which won't leave much if there is any damage.

This tenant has not paid 3 months rent up to the end of tenancy. The last 2 months was paid by the garentour.So they are trying to use the deposit.

I dont trust the tenanat as promises was made on may occasions that the rent will be paid, but all I got was excuses.

A section 21 was served in time, but I have this feeling that this tenanat may not leave? I shall have to wait and see.

The tenant moved into the property and paid a deposit without looking at the place 1 year ago. I have this feeling the person has done this before and using using the unpaid rent as deposit for the next place.

Regards
Alien1x

[ALIEN1X]

I have today been informed by the letting agent that the tenant is unable to move out due on the check day which is tommorow, as the property the tenant is moving into is not quite ready.

Not quite sure what is happening here as the tenant has failed to pay last 3months rent, so they have money?

I have found out from the borough council that bailiffs have been to the property.

I have been informed that the agent cannot remove the tenant on the check out day untill a 3 days time and to obtain a court order can take some time.

They said they have started the ball rolling for legal proceedings via my rent insurance.

A section 21 was served in time by the agent but the agent told me this.....

cannot forcibly remove the tenant from the property and therefore need to obtain a Court Order. This is something the rent insurance would obtain but does take time as there are certain notices that need to be served and a date requested for the possession order from the Court. This is dealt with in the County Court. In view of the above and the fact that tenant advises will be vacating on Tuesday it should not make it to Court but will start the ball rolling with the rent insurance on Monday.


It is the certain notices which have to be served I dont understand? A section 21 was served, I thought all you need is a court order which takes 2 weeks if the tenant dose not vacate on time.

Please advise

[SK1]

I am hoping for some urgent guidance.

Just had a tenant vacate after 2 yrs -initial AST agreement drawn up by letting agents whom I later had to get rid of & managed the tenant myself- all was well - property not in best state as tenant wheelchair bound & due to goodwill I did not say too much at the time - however after he left a few problems came to light -also new agents adv prop not left in suitable state -I forked out for new carpets, cleaning & decorating & -asked tenant whether he would contrubute to costs he says no - I in error rec'd another rent pymt as he had forgotten to canel bank transfer- I am have asked bank to stop the chq that I sent back as not yet cashed & deduct half the amount I incurred to put the prop right & issue another chq minus costs -altho I should retain the whole amt I am being fair & reasonable by taking less than half -(there was a housing benefit top up apparently but I hope that wont cause a problems -if does,have referred tenant to his deposit refund ; the deposit chq also remains un cashed but he is giving that to relatives who loaned him the deposit so therefore I am going to deduct the sum from the last rent in lieu of the deposit - just needed to check ok for me to do this - Also I asked him to sign a receipt at the time to say i had returned the deposit -hoping this not a problem as I see it the tenancy agreement is the contract not a signed ltr confirming i had given deposit back .

Property could have been cleaned as new partner moved in with tenant who could have assisted tenant in looking after property due to his situation .

I want to check that its ok for me to do this -prop not left in fit state-asked tenant if a contribution could be made towards my costs- was told no, so am having to deduct monies from un- cashed rent refund .... and the fact that I asked him to sign a receipt to say he had recd deposit back -does this have any legal implication ?

Letting agents say it is ok to do this - I am being fair & reasonable & tenant does not really have a case - need to be sure my back is covered before I write to tenant explain & send new cheque less 50% deductions - Any help gratefully recd!!

Many thanks

. SK

[pippay]

From previous posts I have read, I think it hinges on whether there was an inventory check carried out at the start of the tenancy - perhaps you can clarify this so that more experienced members on here have this information to hand when they reply to you. see this link http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=2774

Could I also ask why you didn't check the property until (presumably at least several days) AFTER he'd left and why you returned the deposit to him before checking the property ? Your post is unclear in that it seems to infer that you have re-carpeted and re-decorated the entire property so until you clarify that my initial thoughts are :

Being ill and partially disabled myself I can see that maybe there were scuff marks on corners of walls etc from the wheelchair but I find it hard to understand how a wheelchair bound tenant could cause so much mess that the entire property needed decorating.

Were all the carpets damaged and if so what kind of damage or could they have been cleaned instead? Are you talking about re-carpeting the entire property or just one room?

As far as the HB element is concerned, this should only affect you if it was paid to you directly from the Local Authority as the they may look to you when claiming back an overpayment.

I will be interested to see other replies to this post.


I am hoping for some urgent guidance.

Just had a tenant vacate after 2 yrs -initial AST agreement drawn up by letting agents whom I later had to get rid of & managed the tenant myself- all was well - property not in best state as tenant wheelchair bound & due to goodwill I did not say too much at the time - however after he left a few problems came to light -also new agents adv prop not left in suitable state -I forked out for new carpets, cleaning & decorating & -asked tenant whether he would contrubute to costs he says no - I in error rec'd another rent pymt as he had forgotten to canel bank transfer- I am have asked bank to stop the chq that I sent back as not yet cashed & deduct half the amount I incurred to put the prop right & issue another chq minus costs -altho I should retain the whole amt I am being fair & reasonable by taking less than half -(there was a housing benefit top up apparently but I hope that wont cause a problems -if does,have referred tenant to his deposit refund ; the deposit chq also remains un cashed but he is giving that to relatives who loaned him the deposit so therefore I am going to deduct the sum from the last rent in lieu of the deposit - just needed to check ok for me to do this - Also I asked him to sign a receipt at the time to say i had returned the deposit -hoping this not a problem as I see it the tenancy agreement is the contract not a signed ltr confirming i had given deposit back .

Property could have been cleaned as new partner moved in with tenant who could have assisted tenant in looking after property due to his situation .

I want to check that its ok for me to do this -prop not left in fit state-asked tenant if a contribution could be made towards my costs- was told no, so am having to deduct monies from un- cashed rent refund .... and the fact that I asked him to sign a receipt to say he had recd deposit back -does this have any legal implication ?

Letting agents say it is ok to do this - I am being fair & reasonable & tenant does not really have a case - need to be sure my back is covered before I write to tenant explain & send new cheque less 50% deductions - Any help gratefully recd!!

Many thanks

. SK

[SK1]

Hi Pippay-

Hope you dont think I am being mean to my disabled tenant .....!

The problem arose due to me being too nice & too compassionate esp as he was disabled- was lot of goodwill between tenant & I -have learned the lesson - I handed the deposit back too hastily- I was expecting minor damage & some wear & tear.

Went out of my way to do my outmost to make him comfortable when he moved in- he complaned about a problem with the cooker -I replaced with a brand new 1 - cooker now 1.5 yr old is ruined - i did not think to look in the oven on exit -ruined - grease/grime not cleaned after each use so burned & caked onto oven -shelves black -ok he could not clean it himself but his girlfriend should have as she was using the cooker -

Carpets -brand new supplied in 2004 when he moved- not hooverd/cleaned properly for mths - plus huge stains all around - entire place now re carpeted -too damaged to clean -

Re decorataing -place covered in black mould - as confirmed by surveyor , caused by lack of heat/ventilation -no heating or airing ever took place while he lived there ......... whole place re decorated -tenant doesnt seem to think thats his fault.

Because of my being 'nice' i handed the deposit over - new letting agents pointed out the obvious -yes I been a great landlady but despite his predicament I am not a charity- so thats why I phoend tenant , had a chat & asked if he could make a contibution towards my costs ( My costs approx £600 -I did not state sum -just asked if he could help due to the goodwill )- his partner said no - so therefore I have cancelled their rent refund chq of £580 & am planning on sending ltr to explain plus refunding them £300 of the £580..... tho out of pocket am being fair & asking him to contribute only half - the depoist chq can still be cancelled but he wants to repay his parents & i still have the £580 to use an an alternative so not a problem.

I have been a landladly for some time & this is the first time I have come across this situation - I am learning though !! Any advice appreciated !

Thanks,

[zoe]

Personally I think that the cooker could be cleaned, carpets could be cleaned and mould is not his fault.

If you rented to a disabled person in a wheelchair knowingly you have to allow them to keep up the home to their best. If he cant clean the oven or hover what did you expect.

Without an inventory you cannot deduct £1 so if you dont have this document you must return all the money.

Zoe

[SK1]

Zoe

Err ...... Thanks for that?? Hey, I feel bad enough - I thought this was a professional web site where sound advice was given not judgements or put downs -as I explained I did more than most landlords - the point is he had a partner there - believe it or not , I have been fair -it is the new letting agents & fellow landlords who have said i have been too soft -an inventory was done - hope this makes you see the full situation - thanks for your post & like me I hope that you are fair & compassionate person .

Any helpful advice from senior members would be valued .

Many thanks ,

[Muse]

Zoe

Err ...... Thanks for that?? Hey, I feel bad enough - I thought this was a professional web site where sound advice was given not judgements or put downs -as I explained I did more than most landlords - the point is he had a partner there - believe it or not , I have been fair -it is the new letting agents & fellow landlords who have said i have been too soft -an inventory was done - hope this makes you see the full situation - thanks for your post & like me I hope that you are fair & compassionate person .

Any helpful advice from senior members would be valued .

Many thanks ,

If you look under Zoe's name you will she she IS a senior member.

For my part I read your initial post thinking there had been no inventory done. As you have given the detail that there was an inventory done, did you sign off the inventory together upon tenants exit from property? I think you are on dodgy ground anyway, you gave the tenant their deposit back and now are trying to change that. If the problems you now highlight were not captured on the exit inventory or indeed no exit inventory was done I would doubt very much that you would be sucessful were the tenant to pursue the matter in county court.

Have you provided the tenant with a full breakdown (including quotes/receipts) of the amounts you have decided to deduct? If not again this puts you on the back foot. If the property was so bad that so much needed doing I cannot understand why you would return any of the deposit?

I don't think Zoe (although I make no pretence for speaking for her as she is well able to do that herself) meant to put you down nor do I we are merely giving you the benefit of our opinions as you asked. Mine for what it is worth is that in returning the deposit orignially you accepted the property back and you are not allowed to alter that.

[cris/c]

Hello,

I believe that as you have already returned the deposit to the tenant, that you would be on very shaky ground if you were to try and take funds out of an overpayment in rent. If you didn't advise the tenant of damage at the time of 'exit', I don't think that you have any hope of claiming money retrospectively.

By returning the deposit, you have effectively released the tenant from any further responsibility for the tenancy. Everything you list as 'damage' would be very evident and I don't see how you could substantiate a claim for not noticing it when you returned the deposit.

I would learn a lesson from this and move on. Send the overpayment back to the tenant. Make sure that all future tenants sign an accurate inventory at the start of the tenancy and ensure that you, or your agent, check it thoroughly with the tenants at exit.

[Blobby]

Hi I own a few HMO properties(mostly students) and recently a number of tenants are avoiding(or trying to avoid) paying their last months rent saying keep the deposit, Obviously I don't accept this and try and demand the rent -otherwise I don't have any deposit to pay for damage or cleaning etc.
I charge one months deposit, and one month's rent up front on the first of each month.
I was just wondering how others deal with this problem? Do you charge more than one months rent as a deposit?(but surely they'd just avoid paying the last two months rent)
All advice appreciated

thanks

[Ericthelobster]

I was just wondering how others deal with this problem? Do you charge more than one months rent as a deposit?(but surely they'd just avoid paying the last two months rent)Absolutely - I ask for 6 weeks rent (in round figures) as a damage deposit. It's not a foolproof solution by any means, but at least it doesn't equate mathematically to the last months rent which they simply stop the final standing order.

Appreciate then they might not pay the last two months rent but that's less likely to happen hopefully (particularly as you don't ask for two months rent as deposit!); and if it does at least you have some time to sort things out before they are out of the door.

(PS I beileve there is a limit to the amount of deposit you can ask for; I think a full two months is (normally?) too much?)

[Blobby]

Thanks - what do others do? What is the maximum deposit you can take?

[pippay]

Most LL's take 6 weeks. I believe you cannot take more than 2 months as it then comes under a different category ... other more experienced LL's than I can probably say why !
Thanks - what do others do? What is the maximum deposit you can take?

[Billy Whizz]

Hi I own a few HMO properties(mostly students) and recently a number of tenants are avoiding(or trying to avoid) paying their last months rent saying keep the deposit, Obviously I don't accept this and try and demand the rent -otherwise I don't have any deposit to pay for damage or cleaning etc.
I charge one months deposit, and one month's rent up front on the first of each month.
I was just wondering how others deal with this problem? Do you charge more than one months rent as a deposit?(but surely they'd just avoid paying the last two months rent)
All advice appreciated

thanks

Reguardless of how much you charge them mate like you said Do you charge more than one months rent as a deposit (but surely they'd just avoid paying the last two months rent) if tenants dont know who's running the show (especially students! - and good looking birds) they will take the piss knocking you for rent.

[Billy Whizz]

You should seriously think about getting guarantors. The mistake I made when starting was taking students on face value. Even the nicest students have absconded leaving the last months rent, which having a gaurantor in place helps fix.

Adopting a zero-tolerance approach also helps - if the deposit is £200 and their rent is £250 and they leave with a few inevitable repairs required and do not pay their rent, say they owe £70 afterwards - take their guarantor to court. You may get very little out of it but if renting to students word will soon get around that you are not to be buggered around and they will start paying the last months rent!

You may notice, too, if you post such questions as yours you get the inevitable "you did take guarantors didn't you??????????" - so at least you avoid the "I told you so" comments! I do now take guarantors, and apart from the admin headache it is worth it. They tenants are also less liikely to take liberties when the worry of you writing to daddy or mummy asking for the rent is present!

Good luck.

I like it Wickerman - Blobby depending on how your fixed you might want to consider renting outside the "hollyoaks market" (students) - I only rent to professionals who earn x amount a year - If there salary doesnt tally to what I think they should be earning for a flat that is x amount a week its a "forget about it mate - Jog on son"

[striker]

Hi all,

I'd appreciate some input on the following. I'm a first time renter, having moved south to start working in September of last year. It was a slightly difficult situation, as there was not much time between being told I had a job and the job actually starting, so I had to find a place in some haste.
I considered myself lucky to come across a place that looked reasonably (compared to the very few places I'd managed to actually see) nice. It hadn't been lived in for the past few months, apparently, as the landlord had been doing the place up. Our only initial disagreement was over length of tenancy - I didn't want a year contract but, not really having much choice, when the landlord didn't change his position I took it, which is fair enough.
Basically, the situation has been that the landlord owns several places that he is trying to do up. There were many, relatively minor, jobs that needed finishing on this house, and the LL waxed lyrical about his intention to do them all when I moved in. Since I've moved in (with another graduate), he's forgotten about the place (apart from when it's time to collect rent) and put all his efforts into getting other houses into a rentable state.
I'm in danger of boring you all, as I could go on at some length as to how and why we're (there are four of us) fed up with the LL, so I'll try to only add a little colour. He initially verbally promised us things such as :-
a) Solid fire doors to replace the flimsy doors we have at the moment, to improve security. (Believable, as the new doors were stored under the staircase when we moved in.)
b) A sofa and television for our kitchen / 'living room'.
c) A garden fence to give us a little bit of privacy
I'm already fed up of talking of the situation, but the list goes on. The fire doors were moved out of the house one day as he wanted to make it look neater for someone he was showing around. They never re-appeared and I feel sure he's installed them in a different house. The sofa did amazingly materialize, but after four months. He is still keeping up pretences with the TV - as far back as Christmas, he'd chosen the make and model and I believe it's now been delivered, or something, but to a different house. I don't care, as I move out soon. He's blatantly never going to do anything with the garden fence until he starts showing more people around and has the chance of getting more money.
I am the only one of the four of us who currently has (admittedly extremely tatty - ah yes, there was a promise to replace those when I moved in as well) curtains / blinds in my room. Joe had a blind that hadn't been fitted properly - it was too big making it very stiff. This was another job the LL was going to do, but they have finally broken. It's just a bit of plastic needed to get them back up, and Joe's waiting on the LL to provide it. Bob (obviously inventing these names) moved in in January and works night shifts, was promised curtains and has never been given them. He covers his windows with paper to stop the light coming in. That's six months he's been repeatedly promised curtains !?!?!? Paul also works shifts and has no curtains, but the point's been made now.
For the first eight months, the landlord would come round as and when he pleased. He did arrange meetings at times but would frequently miss them and has on more than one occasion come around so late in the evening on an arranged date that I've had to get out of bed to say hello to him. This he does not do anymore as we all fell out over it.
I've fallen out with the LL on two main occasions. The first was just before the first rent cheque was due. I texted him and asked for a meeting before I handed over my rent cheque. He arrived before I got back from work and gave my flatmate a good talking to - he was very angry at the implied suggestion of not paying rent. I ended up, of course, paying my rent on time, as I always have done (I have always paid bills on demand as well), even though I was complaining about things as serious as:-
a) Not having hot water (took three weeks for him to get this working)
b) Not having a table in my room - again, as initially promised
c) Not having a part for the drying machine, meaning we had to spend half a day each weekend walking to the nearest laundrette to get our clothes done.
I also apologised to him, which makes me angry now as I was blatantly in the right to request a meeting.
The second was when I received an email forwarded onto me by my flat-mate on a Saturday from the LL saying that he wasn't impressed with the state of the house and that if it wasn't up to a 'good standard' by a spot check he was going to do on the Monday morning (when most of us would be at work) he would spend an unspecified amount of our deposits getting professional cleaners in. If many of you rent out properties, I can imagine this evoking feelings of sympathy within you for our LL. All I can say is that our house is a perfectly reasonable standard for a place lived in by 4 adults. I would say the kitchen - the biggest cleaning job in the house - has probably on average been properly scrubbed clean about once a month since we moved in. Anyhow - I was out of the country and had to spend a good proportion of the Sunday wording a response. He was saying that if I did not do something not clearly specified effectively instantly, which happened to be impossible for me anyway, he would spend my deposit!? We were all pretty angry.
It took the landlord over three months to fix the light fitting for my main bedroom light, even though he already had spare fittings at one of his other houses.
I'm fed up and want to get away from the computer. It boils down to this. I'm meant to pay my last rent cheque this month, taking me up to the start of September. Our LL is decent to talk to, but constantly tells lies about what he intends to do and we're all fed up with him. A final kick in the teeth for me would be if he decided to nick off with a chunk (or all) of my deposit. There were no photos taken of the house when we moved in, we have no inventory - one of us hasn't even been given his contract yet, so he doesn't know when he's meant to be moving out! I really, really do not want to pay him this last rent cheque. he can keep my deposit (which is one month's rent) and we can call it square. I would offer to pay for anything I thought I'd damaged, which is so far nothing, but I can see that if he took money from my deposit I wouldn't be able to get it back.
Would it be suicide to just refuse to pay? Could he just kick me out of the house instantly? Could he very easily take me to court and how would this benefit him? I just can't see how I'd get my deposit back if it was me taking him to court. he'd just say the money he took was for the repairs of sorting out any one of the numerous holes or nails in the walls, or something.
Anyone who's had the stamina to read through that drivel and has some knowledge of the legalities of the situation is a) an impressive individual and b) their reply would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers all.

[Grange]

What a sad situation.

If you don't pay your rent, you can be evicted. However the process for eviction takes absolutely ages. Much longer than one month.

The day your next rent cheque is due, I suggest you all tell him that you will be leaving in 31 days' time.

Don't pay the rent.

When he comes asking for the rent, tell him to knock it off against the deposit. He can steam and huff and puff all he likes, but if he wants to evict you he will have to go through the proper channels. If he doesn't (e.g. if he changes the locks), then he will be in big trouble if you take him to court.

It's very poor practice for a tenant to behave thus, but I see why you doubt his likelihood of repaying it.

[zoe]

Striker

To be fair I can only see a list of lots of little things here that have bothered you. You should never sign a contract if you have not happy about the length of the term and neither should you accept a property based on work that is going to be done.

Why could you not all buy your own tv or hang your own curtains for example ??

Anyway, the right thing to do would be to hand in your one months notice, pay your rent and then take the LL to small claims court should he not return all the deposit. The court would only rule in favour if 1) there was an inventory at the start of the contract and 2) there were receipts for the work done.

It *might* have been possible for you to have claimed a rent rebate for the lack of hot water and washing machine but this shoul dhave been done at the time and cant really be done retrospectivly.

If, howeer you decide not to pay the last months rent the LL could take you to court for any money owed (again he would need to prove it) but he could not evict you. you need to be 2 months in arrears before he can evict you on those grounds.

Zoe

[striker]

Hey there.

Many thanks for the responses. The general consensus doesn't seem to be very clear cut, unfortunately. There's some pressure to decide quickly, because my flatmate (haha - I wrote 'flatmat' initially!) is about to go on holiday for a while and isn't happy about not being around when the rent cheque would be due, so whatever consequences there are, he wouldn't be here to bear them.
In response to your question, Zoe, I completelely understand where you're coming from, but it never seems to be so straight forward. At what point would you have bought the TV? At the point the LL says he will buy one? When he definitely will? When he's managed to pick the make and model? Or when it's actually been delivered (but apparently to a house down the street)? It's also partly the principle of the thing. If he said 'sorry - I lied to you. I have no intention of doing what I said I would' at least that would be respectable, and then we'd go ahead and buy something for ourselves.
With my light, for example, after a month I did go out and get a lamp. The next time I spoke to my landlord about my light, he said he'd 'noticed' (when had he been in my room?!) I had a lamp and so the situation couldn't be that serious!! Of course, I asked if I could just have the fitting and try it myself, but he told me he had to do it due to health and safety issues. I respected that, actually, because I didn't really want to be fiddling with wires. Was just getting a bit desperate to get the thing done.
Anyhow - I'll show your responses to the others. Cheers again! At least it's a good perspective to remember if I ever become a landlord myself.

[Grange]

Look, there's nothing that he can do until you are two months in arrears with the rent. He could send round his 'heavies' but then he really would be in breach of the law.

The law is grossly heavily weighted against landlords under these circumstances, use it in your favour.

What exactly does your flatmat expect the LL to do? Take the roof off? Change the locks?

[RichieP]

Do you have seperate or joint tenancies?

It should be licensed as a HMO, and those thicker doors should have been put on. You should have self-closing fire doors. The Environmental Health might be quite intereted in your property. "Someone" might think about giving them a call.

[striker]

Thanks all.

We've decided to pay our rent. Will be interesting to see if he tries to rip us off. A bit frustrating, as I feel I've been a bit of a muppet, having been poorly treated all year round but always having paid everything on time. I think it can be difficult as a tenant, because there don't seem to be any half measures for tackling the LL - to my not-particularly-informed eye, you can either pay your rent, in which case the LL can disappear for another month, or not, which is a pretty serious thing to do. I'm glad to have found this site, anyhow.
We all have seperate tenancy agreements. I think there's several things highly dodge about our situation, to be honest. The lack of a working smoke detector was one thing my Mum got him to say he'd sort out, but he never did. To be fair, we've also not been motivated enough to buy one ourselves.
I'm glad to hear the points about the inventory, although I'm not sure how safe we are, really, as it says in our contracts that within seven days we were meant to create one and hand it to the landlord. We did read this at the time and made a list of what was contained in the house (but not details about its state - I'm definitely getting my hands on a digital camera when I start my next tenancy agreement), but he told us it wasn't necessary so it never exchanged hands. We have no official record of him saying that, of course. Has he managed to get round this inventory thing by laying the onus on us?
Hope you're all well.

Ed.

[zoe]

I'm glad to hear the points about the inventory, although I'm not sure how safe we are, really, as it says in our contracts that within seven days we were meant to create one and hand it to the landlord. We did read this at the time and made a list of what was contained in the house (but not details about its state - I'm definitely getting my hands on a digital camera when I start my next tenancy agreement), but he told us it wasn't necessary so it never exchanged hands. We have no official record of him saying that, of course. Has he managed to get round this inventory thing by laying the onus on us?
Hope you're all well.

Ed.

Stupid LL, the inventory is there to protect him not you. without him having created one the courts will not allow him to make ANY deductions. if he tries then just take him to small claims, you will win.

[pippay]

Just a note about smoke detectors .. to LL and tenants - contact your local Fire Prevention Officer - in my area they fit them free complete with a ten years battery !!


The lack of a working smoke detector was one thing my Mum got him to say he'd sort out, but he never did. To be fair, we've also not been motivated enough to buy one ourselves.

[Waffle]

Hi

I am a tenant who is leaving the current rental property to move to another

My question is - how much rent should i pay for the final month

I have been paying my £700 rent via standing order on the 5th day of each month (the date I moved in)

The renewals to the tenancy have always been "6 months less one day" so the first renewal expired on the 4th day of the month, the second renewal on the 3rd day, third on the 2nd day.

This has never been an issue as we were staying in the property but now i think i may end up overpaying

The tenancy agreement says that my agreement ends on the 1st September 2006 but the rent that i am paying will be up to the 5th day

Should I only be paying the proportion of the month that i am staying other wise it seems to me that i will be overpaying by approx £100

What normally happens in this situation:confused:

[Poppy]

Please share the following information:


On what date did you first take possession of this property?
When is the start date of your current tenancy?
What is the length of the fixed term of your current tenancy?
On what date will be your last day?

Let the members mull over your answers please.

[Waffle]

Thanks Poppy, heres the info - hopefully someone can help me:D

On what date did you first take possession of this property?
05/09/04 - 6mth tenancy, then
04/03/05 - 6mth tenancy
03/09/05 - 6 mth teancy
02/03/06 - 6 mth tenancy

When is the start date of your current tenancy? 02/03/06
What is the length of the fixed term of your current tenancy? 6 mths
On what date will be your last day? 01/09/06

The rent has always been paid on the 3rd day of the month

[Noreenadams1945]

Dear all,

I do hope I’m using this forum correctly – my son has just gotten me started on it, so please forgive any faux pas I commit!

I am a private landlord for a flat in Islington although I am based in Cambridge myself – I’m very new to the job, my first tenants moved in at the start of May.

The tenants are a fairly house-proud couple, and have kept the property in good order as far as I can tell. Unfortunately we had a disagreement over the replacement of a sofa, and our relationship has soured somewhat since.

My tenants handed in their two-month notice about a month ago, and last week the young man whose name the property is registered to approached me. Essentially he said that he was not going to pay the last month’s rent, instead informing me that I could keep the security deposit (equal to a month’s rent) in its place.

He said that private landlords had withheld his security deposit arbitrarily in the past, and he didn’t want this to occur again, especially in the light of the sofa debacle (the sofa was in fact fine – I fear the couple are too proud to admit this). He said that should I decide to keep the deposit, all he could do to get it back would be to take me to court, and he didn’t want to do this.

Naturally, I said in no uncertain terms that I wasn’t happy with this arrangement at all. The deposit is there for a reason, and should anything be broken or in need of cleaning it would be inappropriate for me to pay for this. (Between you and me, I don’t expect there to be very much damage. The girl who lives there is very nice, and promised me that the flat would be clean and tidy once they leave. I am inclined to agree with her, but you never know.)

After doing a little research, however, I feel there is very little I can do. I believe that I cannot threaten any kind of action until their rent is more than a month late – at exactly which point of course they’ll be off into the blue yonder!

Half of me is tempted to simply accept the young man’s offer. They are a canny couple who know their rights quite well it would seem. A lot depends on how difficult it would be for me to take this matter up in the small claims court. Cost and inconvenience may be prohibitive in this area, as I have neither much time nor money...

On principal, however, I feel that I do not wish to be treated in this way by my tenants. They are always polite to me, but I feel that this plan of theirs is unfair to me, and I wish to put a stop to it! I was told that tenants would often be difficult when I took this property on, and now I certainly believe it!

Well, I’ve certainly rambled on for long enough.

Many thanks for your kind help

Noreen

[mickey]

Hi, I am no expert, and am an ex tenant taking my ex LL to court for non return of deposit.

I would say do NOT accept your tenants offer, you are quite correct that the deposit is there for a reason, (this is for both of youre benefits)

Your tenant I think (i am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong) would be in breach of contract should he withhold the last months rent.
If you did decide to keep the deposit for no good reason your tenant would have to take you to court to get it back, you would then have to show good reason as to why you could justfully withhold it.

NEVER take a tenants word that all will be ok, clean etc, a lot can be hidden until the place is empty,. your idea of clean may differ from anothers.

If your tenant did withhold the last months rent though I have no idea how you would get it apart from court action, someone else should be able to advise you on that.

[Noreenadams1945]

Thank you - I am actually rather worried because I forgot entirely to do an inventory!

I meant to ask about this in my previous post as well - getting forgetful I suppose.

I have just been looking at some other people's questions, and it says that with no inventory, I would be unable to take any of the deposit at all! Is this true even if the property needs a good cleaning?

[Editor]

It's a regular thing and you're right - especially when tenants know there may be a problem - there's not a lot you can do about it, even though your tenants are legally in breach of contract.
It's going to be very interesting to see what happens in these cases when the new Deposit Scheme comes into operation next April 6th - the deposit will be held by a third party?
The advice is to make your deposit more than one month's rent - say 6 weeks.
If there's no damage or very little damage as you imply, then you're OK. If there is any substantial damage, cleaning, rubbish removal etc collect every bit of evidnece you can (inventory - independent if possible - photos, estimates and invoices) and persue through Small Claims Court if the tenant refuses to pay.
It's a fairly straighforward and inexpesnive process and the tenant will have to pay your costs.
It's not true that you MUST have an inventory, it's just that it provides better evidence in court.

[mickey]

In court it would be difficuilt or impossibly to PROVE the condition of the flat at the start of the tenancy without an inventory, but in your case, if the tenant does not pay the last months rent I am sure you would be entitled to keep the deposit.
My worry is you are being pushed into this, and may well end up losing out if repairs cleaning etc needs to be done.

[Ericthelobster]

It's not true that you MUST have an inventory, it's just that it provides better evidence in court.Well, that's interesting reading: time and time again we see the advice proffered here that no inventory = no case for the tenant to answer and that the landlord can kiss goodbye to legitimising any deductions....

[Poppy]

On the balance of probabilities, would a judge agree with a tenant that a massive wine stain on a white fabric sofa was present at the start of the tenancy? I think not.

[Noreenadams1945]

Thank you for all your replies so far - so on balance then, I should tell this young man that should he insist on following this course of action, I will be forced to take him to court?
Would I need to take photographs of the flat? If so, how does one validate these? My son has an electronic camera, but it strikes me that these photographs could be taken at any time?

[Poppy]

Remember he hasn't done anything wrong yet! Just remind him of his obligation to pay rent according to the terms of the tenancy agreement.

Butter him up slightly. Tell him how good a tenant he is and that you look forward to providing a glowing reference when he eventually leaves the property in good condition and having observed all clauses in the tenancy agreement.

Let me guess, you didn't get references from previous landlords before accepting him?

[Noreenadams1945]

I did in fact, and they were excellent - I even called the lady, and she said they left her flat as clean asthey found it, that they paid rent on time, and that they were honest and trustworthy.
I get the impression that this young man has had some awful experience or other with previous landlords, and has decided never to trust one again...

[welshgold]

Remember he hasn't done anything wrong yet! Just remind him of his obligation to pay rent according to the terms of the tenancy agreement.

Butter him up slightly. Tell him how good a tenant he is and that you look forward to providing a glowing reference when he eventually leaves the property in good condition and having observed all clauses in the tenancy agreement.

Let me guess, you didn't get references from previous landlords before accepting him?

very good advice from poppy, much better than threats of court action,and if he does not pay last months rent, you have deposit, so is it worth all the hassel of court action

[Poppy]

I always find that the best, most accurate references come not from the previous landlord, but from the landlord before that. You know why? Because they are not worried about giving a less than glowing report because the tenant has already left and there is no anxiety about the tenant being unable to leave because of something they have done or not done.

Hope everything goes well during the final month.

[Noreenadams1945]

Well thank you very much for all your advice dears.
I shall keep you all informed as to my progress!
Noreen

[Poppy]

Just so you know, I always take six weeks' rent as a deposit.

[nick..]

Just so you know, I always take six weeks' rent as a deposit.

Which provides a nice bit of security for you from bad tenants, unfortunately there is nothing in place to protect Tenants from thieving landlords believing the deposit is their redecoration fund

[Esio Trot]

I did in fact, and they were excellent - I even called the lady, and she said they left her flat as clean asthey found it, that they paid rent on time, and that they were honest and trustworthy....

I realised some years ago that getting a current landlords reference (unless a letting agent - as they are more easy to pursue for porky-pies) was a waste of paper, postage and time.

Far more valuable is a reference from the landlord before the current one.

The reason is that many landlords lie. If they have a tenant whom they wish is a former tenant as soon as possible, they are hardly likely to give a bad reference. If they do give a bad reference, you won't take the tenant and they will be lumbered.

Think about it. If you had a tenant from hell, wouldn't you want rid by any means possible - including not putting obstacles in their way. Thus you would avoid writing anything blatently untrue, but verbally it is easier to lie.

[rewop46]

I think I will start a short thread on a bizarre note.

On Tuesday Adnil and I attended a talk organised by some local estate agents on the TDS.

One of the speakers was a young lady solicitor; she started off by informing us (a room full of landlords) that she had so far taken on 1,600 cases of tenant versus landlord and won them all. We all gave her a standing ovation of course!

In an answer to a landlord's question she came out with the most bizarre statement; she said that when informed by a tenant that they may not get their bond back she advises them to keep back the final month's rent. She also went on to say that this was common practice among solicitors to offer this advice.

I have now e-mailed the law firm to ask whether they have any objection to my publishing the name of the solicitor and firm on this forum, my forum, my blog and my website. I also asked if the Law Society would be interested in such a statement.

Does anyone know whether a statement made in a public place to a room full of people is publishable without threat of legal action. I given them 7 days to reply.

Needless to say I have not had a reply from the solicitors yet.

(the amazed) rewop :confused:

[rewop46]

Actually, I've got another one.

We are trying to arrange a meeting between the managing company and the builders of a large development in Cardiff Bay. The Customer care lady said she wasn't interested in having a meeting to improve the site because they had sold 99% of the flats to investors and they didn't care so why should she.

I'm going to write to her now to see if I can publish her name and company. They have already threatened my colleague with legal action for naming them on my forum so I won't.

Does anyone remember that little friend of Popeye who ate lots of hamburgers? Was it Gimpy, Limpy, Pimpy, Vimpy something like that. I loved watching Popeye, man after my own heart.

It was a lie you know; spinach doesn't give you muscles it just makes you f:eek:rt

(the old seadog) rewop

[lorenzo]

I think I will start a short thread on a bizarre note.

On Tuesday Adnil and I attended a talk organised by some local estate agents on the TDS.

One of the speakers was a young lady solicitor; she started off by informing us (a room full of landlords) that she had so far taken on 1,600 cases of tenant versus landlord and won them all. We all gave her a standing ovation of course!

In an answer to a landlord's question she came out with the most bizarre statement; she said that when informed by a tenant that they may not get their bond back she advises them to keep back the final month's rent. She also went on to say that this was common practice among solicitors to offer this advice.

I have now e-mailed the law firm to ask whether they have any objection to my publishing the name of the solicitor and firm on this forum, my forum, my blog and my website. I also asked if the Law Society would be interested in such a statement.

Does anyone know whether a statement made in a public place to a room full of people is publishable without threat of legal action. I given them 7 days to reply.

Needless to say I have not had a reply from the solicitors yet.

(the amazed) rewop

A $1,000 fine for withholding the last months rent here. Though I've never heard of it being enforced. (not to say it hasn't)

Just some info totally irrelevant to the UK :rolleyes:

Do you think she walked into the wrong room? Maybe they had a seminar for tenants next door.

[Ericthelobster]

when informed by a tenant that they may not get their bond back she advises them to keep back the final month's rent. She also went on to say that this was common practice among solicitors to offer this advice.This really doesn't surprise me. Why wouldn't a solicitor advise their tenant client to do this, in order to keep their cash safe? I can't actually see any problem with it from a legal point of view - it's not against the law for a tenant to withold their last rent payment, is it? She certainly had some cojones to say this to a roomfull of landlords, though! :eek:

(I would certainly be thoroughly miffed if any tenant of mine did it to me, by the way - but that's because I'd have given them absolutely no cause to do so. - the only tenant of mine who ever witheld her final month's rent unfortunately also witheld her penultimate and prepenultimate months as well.... :-( )

[Joannepowell]

This really doesn't surprise me. Why wouldn't a solicitor advise their tenant client to do this, in order to keep their cash safe? I can't actually see any problem with it from a legal point of view - it's not against the law for a tenant to withold their last rent payment, is it? She certainly had some cojones to say this to a roomfull of landlords, though!

(I would certainly be thoroughly miffed if any tenant of mine did it to me, by the way - but that's because I'd have given them absolutely no cause to do so. - the only tenant of mine who ever witheld her final month's rent unfortunately also witheld her penultimate and prepenultimate months as well.... :-( )


Eric, but if rent becomes legally due surely it would be illegal to with-hold it? I could be wrong but I'd be surprised....

J

[Robin]

Is there lots of legal aid for solicitors in this type of tenant v landlord work I wonder. Plus I suppose she can feel good about herself taking up the cause of the underdog whilst not having a clue of the plight of the landlord with a mortgage to pay but no rent coming in.
You can just imagine how some of these legal people climb to the top of the heap then wind up actually shaping the law by advising the government on what legislation to introduce :rolleyes:

[cdpaul]

I dont have a new address, can i find them and can i sue for the mess they left the house in ie i need a skip to remove the furniture (theirs) they left behind, they had a fire in the garden, dug out their water feature leaving a great hole and took up laminate flooring they put down (without permission) where i had carpets.

Thanx

[P.Pilcher]

Well, there is not a lot that you can do except to warn said tenant that such action will affect any reference that, as a landlord, you might be asked for. I do however hold my hand up to advising tenants to consider such action when they have reasonable grounds to suspect that their landlords will be unreasonably difficult in returning their deposit.

P.P.

[jghomer]

My tenants often do this. It annoys the hell out of me. But in truth, there's really nothing you can do except hope they leave the property in good order. He will of course be liable for damage even though you'll have no bond to take it from, but it will involve the courts :-(

[Ericthelobster]

I think all you can do is do your utmost to find out where the tenant is going/where he works/stuff like that, on the assumption that you might have to chase him for damage money afterwards and/or ultimately issue a Small Claim against him.

Clearly this tenancy predates the commencement of the TDS... I'll be interested to see whether tenants persist with this particular game now that the TDS is in operation.

[lorenzo]

I think all you can do is do your utmost to find out where the tenant is going/where he works/stuff like that, on the assumption that you might have to chase him for damage money afterwards and/or ultimately issue a Small Claim against him.

Clearly this tenancy predates the commencement of the TDS... I'll be interested to see whether tenants persist with this particular game now that the TDS is in operation.
Well there is need too now.

Here's an idea. There are onerous penalties for LLs who fail to comply with TDS, what about lobbying for some sort of penalty for Ts who fail to pay the last months rent. In Oz there is a $1000 fine for this.

In reality, the fine is rarely enforced, but the stick is there to be used if necessary. The threat is a real encouragement for Ts to cough up the last months rent.

Something like this would balance things out again IMO.

[sharp]

Hi,

I would really appreciate some advice on deposit issues.
I have had a nightmare tenancy which is about to end in 2weeks time. During the duration of the tenancy, I have kept the house in excellent condition. However, I have a very bad relation with my LL, due to the fact that the LL tried to make me pay for a pre-existing damage in the house (in other words 'con'). In this circumstances, I believe that it will be difficult for me to get my deposit back (1 month's deposit) if I pay my last month's rent.

Is there any legal issues if the tenant does not pay the last month's rent? I would prefer not to go through any potential small claims court procedure as it is time consuming and from what I read in this forum, getting a CCJ does not mean that I can get the money back.

Thank you in advance.

[justaboutsane]

If you fear that you won't get your deposit back and you have valid fears then dont pay the last months rent and let him sue you for the money!

[Bludnok]

Have to say (speaking as a LL myself) I just hate to hear some of the things other LL's do.

If he has honeslty been that dishonest and sneaky my advice would be don't pay the last month and quietly disappear

Dave

[kfarmah]

....LL tried to make me pay for a pre-existing damage in the house (in other words 'con').

Is there an inventory or any proof of the pre-existing damage, that you can produce in your defence ?
If not then I also hate to say it, if the LL is taking the piss then maybe so should you..

[sharp]

Is there an inventory or any proof of the pre-existing damage, that you can produce in your defence ?
If not then I also hate to say it, if the LL is taking the piss then maybe so should you..

Thanks for the comments. The inventory is a very basic one and basically only covers things like curtains, utensils and cabinets. I've had 2 separate independent experts to inspect the initial damage dispute, and both surveyors verbally told me that the damage has been pre-existing for months, but well covered up. However, the LL doesn't want to provide me with the surveyor's report (surveyor's will only provide formal inspection reports to the LL, the tenant will not get it, even if the T is willing to pay for it!). Basically, I consider this case closed, but judging from this incident, I'm worried about the deposit return. I understand that there are many ways that a LL can claim damage (even if the house is in excellent condition), as it is a very subjective matter. Once the LL witholds the deposit, getting it back can be a long and stressful procedure.

Am I right to assume that the LL as a stakeholder cannot legally withold deposit unless the damage claims is agreed by both parties?

[kfarmah]

From your comments the LL did protect your deposit with any TDS ?
If so all you have to do is dispute the damage and allow the ADR to deal with the claim.

[sharp]

From your comments the LL did protect your deposit with any TDS ?
If so all you have to do is dispute the damage and allow the ADR to deal with the claim.

No, the tenancy started in 2006, hence, TDS wasn't in place yet.

[Bel]

Personally, I would withold rent. But then be prepared to pay for any damage (if any) that you are accountable for. Be fair, and document everything in case you need proof. At least write down the names of the relevant surveyors in case you forget.

[kfarmah]

Personally, I would withold rent. But then be prepared to pay for any damage (if any) that you are accountable for. Be fair, and document everything in case you need proof. At least write down the names of the relevant surveyors in case you forget.

I agree, cos no TDS then protect your 'deposit' by not paying and that money becomes the last months rent.
But also be prepared to pay for fair damage...

[sharp]

Personally, I would withold rent. But then be prepared to pay for any damage (if any) that you are accountable for. Be fair, and document everything in case you need proof. At least write down the names of the relevant surveyors in case you forget.

Thanks alot. Yes, that sounds fair to me. In the meanwhile I'll have to withstand 2 more weeks of harassment!

[Bel]

Thanks alot. Yes, that sounds fair to me. In the meanwhile I'll have to withstand 2 more weeks of harassment!

If he hassles you...say you will report him to the police for harrassment and to only contact you by letter. He is interfering with your 'quiet enjoyment' !!

[newlord1971]

Please help me I am very new to this. I have two joint tenants. Their AST will expire at the end of this month (Oct). I have served them the S21 notice (3 months ago) and also a standard moving out letter re. payment of final months rent and return of deposit withn 14 days after satisfactory handover (i think it was based ont he Lanlordzone moving out letter template), both of which thy have signed for and I have signed acknowledgement from them.

The tenants wanted to stay but did not want to pay the requested rent, which was still below the going rent in the area for similar properties. They however refuse to pay the final months rent, saying the deposit (one months rent should cover it). I informed them that the were breaching the tenancy (a legal document) agreement and that rent and deposit were seperate.

In to the second week of the final month (Oct), they informed me in passing that they will not be moving at the end of the month (Oct) but on the 10th of November, which means I cannot reassign the property to new tenants on the 2nd of November. I have informed them that this is unacceptable as I have tenants waiting. They say their new place will not be available till the 9th and will also not pay the final months rent and have not said anything about paying November's rent. I informed them as their AST will expire end of Oct, if they stay they will be on a "Perodic Tenancy" and they will still have to give a months notice and therefore pay for October and November and as I will lose the prospective tenants they may be liable for other costs. However don't appear to be able to convice them that they cannot simply not pay rent and also stay beyond the AST expiry.

They say they did this to their prveious landlord, i.e. not paid final months rent.

Their action means I will loose the prospective tenants and there is no indication whether I will be able to find any new ones any time soon. This will of course mean fianancial loss to myself.


They have caused some damage to the property too and I suspect this is why they do not want the deposit left behind.


I would very much appreciate your expert advice as to where I stand legally and what course of action I should take.

P.S. They will be moving locally so I will still have their address.


Much appreciated.

Dean

[Paul_f]

As a landlord you must realise that the ONLY way you can legally end a tenancy is through the courts, the service of a S.21 Notice is only a Notice Seeking Possession (NSP).
If your tenants overstay their welcome there is nothing you can do but they do still have to pay you an equivalent amount of rent - you are not creating a new tenancy by doing this.
Unfortunately you don't have any rent for the last month and might lose out as you say - Your new tenancy will be subject to the Tenancy Deposit Scheme and will be held by a third party so this might present more of a problem in future if a similar situation were to occur.
The only remedy I'm afraid is to find out their forwarding address (or their place of employment) and to serve a summons in the SCC to recover your money as a debt if they fail to pay up - you could try and frighten them to say that you will place a tracing agent on them to find out where they move to.

[newlord1971]

As a landlord you must realise that the ONLY way you can legally end a tenancy is through the courts, the service of a S.21 Notice is only a Notice Seeking Possession (NSP).
If your tenants overstay their welcome there is nothing you can do but they do still have to pay you an equivalent amount of rent - you are not creating a new tenancy by doing this.
Unfortunately you don't have any rent for the last month and might lose out as you say - Your new tenancy will be subject to the Tenancy Deposit Scheme and will be held by a third party so this might present more of a problem in future if a similar situation were to occur.
The only remedy I'm afraid is to find out their forwarding address (or their place of employment) and to serve a summons in the SCC to recover your money as a debt if they fail to pay up - you could try and frighten them to say that you will place a tracing agent on them to find out where they move to.
Paul F.

Tracing them will not be a problem. I know where one of them works and their new address is local and I should be able to trace them easily. What are realistic chances of recovering my owed rent and any further loss of income from them overstaying as this will mean I will lose the new tenants and as a result there may be void until I can find new tenants.

How much will it cost me to take them to SCC. Sorry I am new and not so kwowledgeable.

[newlord1971]

Does this mean that they can breach their AST, no pay final moths rent and then over stay and I can't do anything about it? Whats the point of having an AST. I thought it was a legally binding document. I stand to loose thousands because of them breaching this contract. It appears they do not not intend to pay me for the overstay month either.

Surely I have a strong case for compensation for breaching of the AST and loss of future tenants and therefore income.

As I said getting hold of their address or employment place will not be difficult. I know where they work and where they will be moving to.


Can someone please advice as to what I should do? As a new landlord I am at a loss, if I do everything correctly, yet the law does nto protect me from such people.

Again any advice much much appreciated.

[jeffrey]

As PaulF advised, you DO have legal remedies. You have to enforce them; otherwise you will lose £££ by inactivity. In suing T, you can include (as part of your claim) the Court costs of the action.

[newlord1971]

As PaulF advised, you DO have legal remedies. You have to enforce them; otherwise you will lose £££ by inactivity. In suing T, you can include (as part of your claim) the Court costs of the action.

Thanks Jeffrey and PaulF,

Can I also include loss of rent as a result of void due to loss of prospective tenants in my SCC action and do I start the process right now, their deposit will cover this months rent but if they overstay next months by two weeks, I will be at loss.

I was waiting to write to them one final time, warning them of legal consequences and possible SCC claims. Is that reasonable thing to do? I understand I need to demonstrate reasonableness, the court may look at my case favourably if I show reasonableness.

Many thanks again.

[Bel]

I'm not sure that you will be able to claim for loss of rent becuase of a void; but they will have to pay for their time whilst they still occupy. Check this.

I think you will be able to claim for your expenses of finding the new tenants that you will now have to disappoint.

You must write to them telling them what money you think they fairly owe you; also tell them you will need to inspect the property after they have left for any delapidations that do not come under fair wear and tear.

If they do not come up with the money, tell them you will claim it from the court and they will have to pay court fees on top, or you could hand the debt over to a debt collector.

[Wrigglesworth]

Thanks Jeffrey and PaulF,

Can I also include loss of rent as a result of void due to loss of prospective tenants in my SCC action and do I start the process right now, their deposit will cover this months rent but if they overstay next months by two weeks, I will be at loss.

I was waiting to write to them one final time, warning them of legal consequences and possible SCC claims. Is that reasonable thing to do? I understand I need to demonstrate reasonableness, the court may look at my case favourably if I show reasonableness.

Many thanks again.


My recollection is that you can claim all reasonably foreseeable losses that flow from their breach of the contract. That would include the void created while you have to find some more tenants to replace the ones you have lined up, and the other costs of you doing (advertising etc). You need to keep written evidence of all of this, ideally you would have written to the new tenants confirming their move in date and will now write to them explaining why they can't move in any more.

The court fees for bringing a small claim are on a sliding scale depending on the overall value of your claim - you should be able to find the table on the Courts Service website.

Subject to you being able to produce evidence you should have very little trouble getting a judgement against them - this seems like a fragrant breach of contract, and the law clearly says that they are responsible for losses which you suffer flowing from that. However, the difficulty is often in enforcing the judgement and getting the money from them. If you have employer and bank details you may be able to ask the court for an attachment of earnings order which means that what they owe you will be deducted from their wages at source.

You should certainly write to them now explaining that you will sue if they overstay and pointing out that your loss could be considerable. In general try to ensure that all important communications are either in writing or are followed up by a letter.

[ah84]

My recollection is that you can claim all reasonably foreseeable losses that flow from their breach of the contract. That would include the void created while you have to find some more tenants to replace the ones you have lined up, and the other costs of you doing (advertising etc). You need to keep written evidence of all of this, ideally you would have written to the new tenants confirming their move in date and will now write to them explaining why they can't move in any more.

The court fees for bringing a small claim are on a sliding scale depending on the overall value of your claim - you should be able to find the table on the Courts Service website.

Subject to you being able to produce evidence you should have very little trouble getting a judgement against them - this seems like a fragrant breach of contract, and the law clearly says that they are responsible for losses which you suffer flowing from that. However, the difficulty is often in enforcing the judgement and getting the money from them. If you have employer and bank details you may be able to ask the court for an attachment of earnings order which means that what they owe you will be deducted from their wages at source.

You should certainly write to them now explaining that you will sue if they overstay and pointing out that your loss could be considerable. In general try to ensure that all important communications are either in writing or are followed up by a letter.

But this is a case where a tenant has ignored a section 21. I think the landlord here was naive in reletting because he has not stated that they confirmed they were moving out at end of October.

I think the landlord would have a better case if tenants gave notice to quit end of october and then tried to change their minds.

[newlord1971]

AH84 and others,

Thanks for your reply. I have not relet the property to them. I may have been naive as I am new to this, hence I am here seeking your esteemed and expert advice.

Just to give you a little more background:

They did tell me that they will be moving out on the 31st of October as we could not agree to a revised rent and this is why they would not pay the last month's rent. I did not agree to them not paying the final month's rent, they basically ignored my demands for the rent becuase they said the deposit covers it and bascially they needed the money for they new place they were moving to. It is only when they tried to find another "cheap" place, which is not available till mid November that they said they will not move out till then. This is after I had found prospective tenants.

I told them even then that theyshould find anoter place that was free on the 31st October as I needed the property back for new tenants. They of course ignored this request.


However, they have not paid the rent for October neither have they indicated that they will pay for November. To avoid problems I have even spoke to them in person and lowered my rent demand to that they themselves offered but they have not responded. It's been a week now. I have drafted a letter to send to them warning of legal consequences and my right and intention to seek remedy through the courts.

The question is can I in my SCC action claim for whole of November too and are they not obliged to give me a months notice past ther AST expiry anyway?


Many thanks

[Bel]

The question is can I in my SCC action claim for whole of November too and are they not obliged to give me a months notice past ther AST expiry anyway?


Many thanks

You have served them a s21 notice, so they do not need to give you notice to quit. Ideally they should leave on the expiry of your notice. If they outstay their welcome, they pay rent for the time they occupy. If you had not served notice, they would need to give one months notice to end the periodic tenancy.

[newlord1971]

Hi everyone. Thank you again for all your free advice.

I need more help. I wrote to the tenants requesting that they must pay the lat months rent and on the line that it is illegal to withhold the rent and rely on the deposit. I referred them to my moving out letter, which stated that the rent and deposit are separate items etc. I also requested that they vacate the property at the end of the tenancy term as they had stated priorly as I have prospective tenants. I warned them of my intention to seek remedy through the courts if they do not pay the rent and for loss of tenants due to their overstay in the form of readvertising costs etc.

Their response was a torrent of outrageous false allegations and intimidation to report me to the authorities of the country for threatening to expel them out of the country etc. and for being racist towards them. The only problem is that them and I are of the same race, culture and background. - All the allegations are completely untrue of course and appears to be concocted in response to my letter. They have not complained before.I can prove them all to be such.

After making me out to to be the big ugly monster, they say I gave them permission to withold the final months rent (two weeks after it was due and after they had already paid deposit on their new property) even though I have verbally asked them for it, sms texted and requested the rent etc. As I still continue to do do. I have all the texts backed up.

Now the question is, do I write to them again before the end of the AST expiry date, i.e today (I have already served the S21) or wait till the first of the new month when they will technically be two months in arrears and again request the payment of rent. They say in their letter that they will pay the rent for the extra days to their departure date but do not mention paying the current months. However, since they have not paid the present months rent where do I stand with the next months overstay rent and how much it should be? Is it pro-rata?

They basically know that there will be damages claim to the property hence they have defaulted on the deposit.

1. Do I simply not write to them and wait until they have vacated the property and then take action?

2. Write to them a simple rebuttal letter and and denying the false allegations without going in to details of each and reserve the details for later, once they have vacated the property.

3. Or rebut each of the accusations in detail in before the end of this month, i.e. today.

I do not want to do anything illegal but want have my property back without losing out.

When they move out, what do I do about the inventory? Do I accept the property from them with the inventory as I have no deposit to charge for missing or damaged items or damaged to the property? Do I accept it but with a caveat - Without prejudice" for instance?

Phew! This was long. Need some more free advice quickly. This is very stressful.

Many Many thanks in advance.

[newlord1971]

1, After the rents a day late....monayclaim.gov.uk
2, Print off...do not issue, but just post a copy to T
3, 14 Days late ISSUE
4, Never chase late mooney....90% of the time its a waste of time
5, If T wants to play .....just bankrupt T ...its great fun really....i quite enjoy it


THe law is slow....but works


Thanks Starlettings.

They are basically attempting to blackmail me in to not making any claims. Can they make acounter claim once they have vacated the property?

They have not complained before about any of the issues they raise now. Its becuase they think I will claim for damages to the property that they have witheld the rent. They think by making these allegations about lack of timely repair, racist abuse (see me post before) that I will not pursue the rights under the AST.

I am thinking about suing for defamation and damn right lies.

Of course until they leave the property on the date they have stated in writing, I do not know what damage they have caused to the property or the inventory.


Anyone else have any inputs to this. Much appreciated.

[Hertford23]

Hi, I wonder if someone can assist.

I have a tenant who has given notice to vacate at the end of a 6 months AST(leaving next week) but has not paid the rent due for the the last month. He originally stated that he thought that he did not have to pay as he was paying in arrears but I confirmed that this was incorrect as he is paying in advance and the rent is due. Since then he has not been returning phone calls and the rent is now 3 weeks overdue.

The DPS hold a deposit of 6 weeks rent but my question is - is there a notice I should issue to the tenant before the end of the tenancy setting out the default or can I just apply to the DPS to take the rent from the rent deposit ?

He had previously paid all rent on time.
I viewed the property at 3 months and was happy with its condition.
Thanks for your help

[jeffrey]

Hi, I wonder if someone can assist.

I have a tenant who has given notice to vacate at the end of a 6 months AST(leaving next week) but has not paid the rent due for the the last month. He originally stated that he thought that he did not have to pay as he was paying in arrears but I confirmed that this was incorrect as he is paying in advance and the rent is due. Since then he has not been returning phone calls and the rent is now 3 weeks overdue.

The DPS hold a deposit of 6 weeks rent but my question is - is there a notice I should issue to the tenant before the end of the tenancy setting out the default or can I just apply to the DPS to take the rent from the rent deposit ?

He had previously paid all rent on time.
I viewed the property at 3 months and was happy with its condition.
Thanks for your help
If you want a Notice form, use a s.8 Notice and its ground 10 basis (minor rent arrears).

[stuco]

I also had a tenant who refused to pay his last months rent claiming he had 'lost his job'. As the property is only 2 doors away I still saw him leaving at the same time every morning and returning at the same time every night! We ended up taking it from the deposit but this only left us £50 to cover cleaning/repairs etc and there was more than £50 worth to do. I think the tenant may have been worried that we would unfairly keep the deposit although we had not given him any reason to suspect that. To us it wasn't worth chasing up the extra £80-100 needed to service the property.

Sorry thats not much help in your case.

[ncooper1974]

I have a tenant coming to the end of a 2 year tenancy (1 Year AST issued originally, and then its been periodic ever since) and he hasn't paid his last months rent which was due on 1st Jan.
I've approached him about this, and he said that as he paid the deposit I can keep that as the rent for the final month. I have tried, unsuccessfully, to explain that the rent is and should be treated different to the deposit held, but dont want to push it too much as he is being very helpful in showing estate agents and prospective new tenants round (i live about an hour away so it can be quite inconvenient to come down each time someone wants to view the flat)
I've made regular visits to the property and its been clean and tidy, and I have no reason to think that I'll need to keep some of the deposit back, but its just that anything can happen whereby i'll need to deduct funds from the deposit, and if this were to happen then i'll be out of pocket (unless i get a forwarding address in which case I can take him to the small claims court)

The deposit is not protected as his tenancy started before the law changed, so its just held in my current account.

Does anyone have any experience where other tenants have tried this on, and whether or not they have been successful in getting the final months rent in the end?

[Colincbayley]

There is just about nothing you can do in this situation. On the bright side your tenant is helping you with viewings and has so far looked after the property.
As such I wouldn't worry about it too much. Do however make sure that your tenant is aware that even if they are using the deposit as the last months rent, they are still responsible for any dilapidation's.

[ncooper1974]

Thanks Colin

I would have been more than happy to supply tenant with a very decent reference (clean and tidy, rent always paid on time, etc) but in light of his recent action i'm inclined to give him one now (although he hasn't actually asked for one).

Its just a shame that after what I thought was a very good landlord/tenant relationship I feel like i'm being made a fool off, and there is nothing I can do. I can look on the bright side as you say in that he has looked after the property and is assisting with viewings, but if there were any dilapidations, then it'll be difficult to chase him thru the courts as I only have a mobile number for contact and as yet no forwarding address.

Has anyone had a similar experience whereby the deposity was held in a protection scheme? if so, what happened?

[Colincbayley]

Why not just ask him for his forwarding address?

I always do this when a tenant gives me notice, I write them a letter to confirm the notice has been received, ask for a forwarding address, agree a check out time at the property and advise them of there obligations to leave it clean and tidy. Works for me.

[ncooper1974]

I've already asked for one, but he's unable to supply me one yet. He says that he hasn't found anywhere to move to yet.
The only reason he is moving out is that he cannot afford to continue paying his rent. So I guess i'm lucky in that he's taking positive action to find somewhere cheaper, rather than just default!

[johnboy]

We always send the tenant a letter towards the end of the tenancy explaining what they need to do to get their deposit back. You could just write him a letter thanking him for being a "good" tenant and enclose a copy of the inventory for his referance so he has some guidence about leaving the property as he found it and a reminder about what you expect and after a sucessfully check out you will have a glowing reference ready to give to him.

I know you shouldnt have to but it might encourage him to leave the property as it should. (he might be planning to anyway)

[Goldieboy]

I too would be interested to know if anyone has experienced this when using the deposit protection schemes. Will they automatically give the whole deposit to the landlord if the tenant has defaulted on their last month's rent. What happens if the tenant still makes a claim on the deposit. I have not been able to find answers to these questions on the schemes sites.

[Hertford23]

I am in the position as Goldieboy refers to. The tenant has not paid the final month's rent and is due to move out tomorrow. As it is was only a 6 month AST the deposit is with the DPS. The tenant is now not taking my calls but in the last conversation said that I should take the final rent from the deposit.

I will keep you updated on progress with recovering the deposit with the DPS.

[csw]

I too would be interested to know if anyone has experienced this when using the deposit protection schemes. Will they automatically give the whole deposit to the landlord if the tenant has defaulted on their last month's rent. What happens if the tenant still makes a claim on the deposit. I have not been able to find answers to these questions on the schemes sites.

I have just had a tenant's deposit returned to my account by the DPS. I evicted the T in September. She refused to leave a forwarding address and said I could use the deposit to cover the last few weeks' rent. I was relieved to see the back of her. Then it took several phone calls and two letters of complaint but finally a 'higher management' person from the DPS called me and the matter was sorted out without any fuss about the reason for my claiming the whole deposit. I just had to wait while they wrote to T care of my rental property's address. The most frustrating part was that the DPS website does not allow there to be 'no forwarding address' for T. Hence the letters and phone calls. They may get this sorted out.

[ncooper1974]

Thought everyone would like to know that this has now been resolved, and the original tenant will now be staying on.
I originally informed the tenant I would be putting up his rent from £795 to £830pcm. He declined saying it was too much and that he would leave. So i got 2 agents in and they marketed the property for me.
Its in quite a nice apartment complex near canary wharf, and I thought I would have no trouble in letting it out. As it happened, 2 weeks after it was on the market I still had no offers, and the tenant was finding it increasingly difficult to find somewhere else.
So in the end he agreed to a rental figure of £850, which was less than I wanted to market it for, but more than I asked him originally. I guess he should have taken my original offer of £830.
And while its still short of what I could acheive (i reckon I could get about £900pcm) i'm happy that there are no void periods and I have a good tenant

[tsu3000]

Hi

My tenant has not paid his final months rent and I think he has done a runner. I am due to see the property this week. His deposit does not cover the costs of his rent and damage to the property.

Is there anything I can do to reclaim the money from him? His phone number he gave me doesn't work anymore.

Thanks in advance.

[Ericthelobster]

My tenant has not paid his final months rent and I think he has done a runner. I am due to see the property this week. His deposit does not cover the costs of his rent and damage to the property.

Is there anything I can do to reclaim the money from him? His phone number he gave me doesn't work anymore.Certainly not easily, so it depends on whether you reckon he can pay you if you catch up with him, and whether all the aggro will be worth it for the amount he owes. If so, you'll need to hire a tracing agency or private detective etc to find him, and then issue a Small Claim against him.

[Sportingdad]

and remember in future if you have decent/respectful property demand 6 weeks deposit and a guarantor

[jade456]

Hello I would really appreaciate any advice here.

I know its wrong to not pay the last months rent but I have no realistic expectation of gettin my deposit back.

A fellow tennant moved out at the end of May and is still waiting to get her deposit back. She has attempted to contact the LL but has had all her calls and emails ignored.

The LL is basically brassic and has not put our deposits in one of the tenancy deposit schemes they are supposed to use. She is waiting for someone to take over the room to get their deposit and then pass that on, however is having problems letting the room.

I think I would be stupid to pay the last months rent, what would you advise? Could the LL take me to court?

Re - the contract - I have never recieved one. I have also been paying for services included in the rent (broadband) that have been cut off.

Any advice greatfully recieved!

[agent46]

I think I would be stupid to pay the last months rent, what would you advise? Could the LL take me to court?



If there is no damage to the property, then any legal action against you would be futile. However, you may have trouble getting a reference from him, should you need one.

[jghomer]

I furthermore doubt he'll take you to court once you point out that the fine for him not placing your deposit into a protection scheme is 3 x deposit!

[jade456]

Thanks for your replies. :o

Was the LL supposed to tell us where the deposit is? e.g. in which scheme.

I didnt even know about the TDS until my ex flat mate had so many probs and I look on citizens advice website for her.

One other q, if the room is not let soon and then when I move out I think the LL may sell the flat as will be left with less than £500 that month to pay mortgage and all bills (bills are included in rent). This is being threatened at the moment anyway. If this were to happen how long would the remaining tennant have to move out? Am I right in thinking she would have 2 months?

Thanks

[Reading_up]

I have a T who is now a week late with their last payment before vacating the property. Not normally an issue, tennant always paid a couple of days late, but T has in the past asked last month rent can be taken from deposit. This has always been refused due to known deductions held against the deposit. Also AST stipulates that the deposit can not be used for payment of rent under any circumstances.

LA holds deposit and is registered in Government approved scheme. They also inform me they have deductions against the deposit.

How would the deposit be split and who would chase after T for what elements?

I would guess all deductions occur first then the outstanding balance goes towards the rent and is given to me as LA will look after themselves first.

[mind the gap]

I have a T who is now a week late with their last payment before vacating the property. Not normally an issue, tennant always paid a couple of days late, but T has in the past asked last month rent can be taken from deposit. This has always been refused due to known deductions held against the deposit. Also AST stipulates that the deposit can not be used for payment of rent under any circumstances.

LA holds deposit and is registered in Government approved scheme. They also inform me they have deductions against the deposit.

How would the deposit be split and who would chase after T for what elements?

I would guess all deductions occur first then the outstanding balance goes towards the rent and is given to me as LA will look after themselves first.

What do you mean by 'I would guess...the LA will look after themselves first'?

[Reading_up]

What do you mean by 'I would guess...the LA will look after themselves first'?

The deposit is not enough to cover the rent plus deductions that both myself and LA have. So does the deposit pay for outstanding rent first or deductions first.

If deductions, then LA would take their costs and leave me with all debt (I accept this, don't get me wrong) or would it pay my rent backlog first and both LA and myself would go after the T for the balance?

[mind the gap]

The deposit is not enough to cover the rent plus deductions that both myself and LA have. So does the deposit pay for outstanding rent first or deductions first.

If deductions, then LA would take their costs and leave me with all debt (I accept this, don't get me wrong) or would it pay my rent backlog first and both LA and myself would go after the T for the balance?

My understandng is that the tenat's deposit should be under the control of the DPS during the tenancy - it is essentially the tenant's money, not the LL's or the agent's. LL can only claim deductions from it (at the end), which relate to repairs/cleaning (but not fair wear and tear) for which T is responsible.

If by 'LA's deductions', you mean his fees/commision/charges, then absolutley not ; (the scheme would not allow him to deduct them anyway. His contract is with you - you owe him his fees, etc. You have to sort that out separately. Tell him to invoice you. I cannot imagine any other charges which he could legitimately deduct. Presumably if he charged T for finding the property or credit checks, he will have had his fees for those months ago? The deposit should be a damages deposit.

If you mean costs of repairs which LA has sanctioned and paid for, then he must pass invoices for those to you, and you must claim them from the DPS along with any which you have paid for.

I'm unsure as to whether the DPS will allow the money to be retained by the LL in lieu of rent if your AST expressly forbids it, but I may be missing something there.

[Reading_up]

My understandng is that the tenat's deposit should be under the control of the DPS during the tenancy - it is essentially the tenant's money, not the LL's or the agent's. LL can only claim deductions from it (at the end), which relate to repairs/cleaning (but not fair wear and tear) for which T is responsible.

If by 'LA's deductions', you mean his fees/commision/charges, then absolutley not ; (the scheme would not allow him to deduct them anyway. His contract is with you - you owe him his fees, etc. You have to sort that out separately. Tell him to invoice you. I cannot imagine any other charges which he could legitimately deduct. Presumably if he charged T for finding the property or credit checks, he will have had his fees for those months ago? The deposit should be a damages deposit.

If you mean costs of repairs which LA has sanctioned and paid for, then he must pass invoices for those to you, and you must claim them from the DPS along with any which you have paid for.

I'm unsure as to whether the DPS will allow the money to be retained by the LL in lieu of rent if your AST expressly forbids it, but I may be missing something there.

No fees are to be deducted from deposit, purely costs incurred the T should have paid and invoices for costs are stating "no fault found" by tradesperson.

The T has been inplace whilst LA managed property for first year. T asked LA to action requests, LA paid for requests on behalf of myself and never asked to be reimbursed "T was at fault, will deduct it from deposit at end of lease." After one year decided to do tenant find only and cancelled mgt contract. Incurred further costs from T who asked for things to be done/checked once tradeperson had finished T refused to pay, T contractually obliged to pay and agreed T would before call out was made.

I use local tradespeople, so not to cause future issues I paid for wasted calls. Always confirmed on invoice "no fault found" so I could recoup costs later.

I understand now that I may have to chase for payment of the rent through the courts etc. How soon can I start the process and what can I do in the meantime to assist in making the claim.

[mind the gap]

Tell T you expect him to continue to pay rent as normal,right up to the end. Point out that the AST does not allow for rent to be deducted from deposit and that if he does not pay rent, you will pusue it through the small claims court and he may end up with a ccj. Don't let him mess you around over this. If he has not paid within 15 days of rent being due, start chasing it.

Assuming you have issued the section 21 in time and he vacates as planned, all you can do at this stage is prepare a list and associated evidence (letters, requests from T for repairs, photos of dmage done - which you may need to supplement with photos of property on day he moves out to show state of cleaning, etc). You will probably be wasting your time tyring to charge T for 'no fault found' calls, especially if they relate to heating or gas, but if he has made a ridiculous number of these, it might be worth a try.

Sort out the stuff you believe T to be reponsible for (pile 1) and anything T has paid for which he wasn't liable for ( pile 2) and finally, anything A has paid for (a third pile!)

Pil1 - keep this safely, make copies of all documents, make an invoice for T clearly showing all proposed deductions; be ready to submit it to the deposit scheme adjudicator if T disputes the deductions.

Pile 2 - add up any amounts T has paid out for which he was not liable and deduct this amolunt from his invoice (see Pile 1)

Pile 3 - reimburse agent for anything he has paid out for which T was not responsible. Keep this debt separate from stuff to do with the tenant's deposit.

Hope that makes sense.

[Reading_up]

Thanks Mind The Gap.
Pile 1 large. List already submitted to third party inventory clerk, who did check in and has been booked for check out. Will take camera round after move out.
Pile 2 empty. T will not pay for anything calls out services, gets work done then refuses to pay.
Pile 3 empty. LA has been paid for all services to myself.

[mind the gap]

Thanks Mind The Gap.
Pile 1 large. List already submitted to third party inventory clerk, who did check in and has been booked for check out. Will take camera round after move out.
Pile 2 empty. T will not pay for anything calls out services, gets work done then refuses to pay.
Pile 3 empty. LA has been paid for all services to myself.


OK, well that makes it simpler!

Just itemise all the things you think T should pay for (but hasn't), with evidence, and have that ready for the DPS (or more likely TDS, if agent kep the depsoit to register?)

Are you saying that the total amount may exceed the amount of the deposit?

[Reading_up]

OK, well that makes it simpler!

Just itemise all the things you think T should pay for (but hasn't) and have that ready for the DPS!

Are you saying that the total amount may exceed the amount of the deposit?

Yes, LA advised only taking one months deposit from T and I already have about half that in unpaid invoices over the course of 6 months!:eek:

[mind the gap]

Yes, LA advised only taking one months deposit from T and I already have about half that in unpaid invoices over the course of 6 months!:eek:

One month's rent is a normal amount for a deposit (some LLs insist on six weeks - any more and many Ts would struggle to find it, given they usually pay a month's rent in advance too...)

However, it would help to have as clear a idea in your head as possible of exactly how much he is likely to owe you by the time he goes; if it exceeds the deposit, then you'll have to be ready to start the wheels in motion to claw it back through the courts if nec.

Which scheme is the deposit in?

[Planner]

Can I ask why the tenant called out all these trade people and not yourself? where you simply not notified and the tenant took it upon themselves?

[mind the gap]

Can I ask why the tenant called out all these trade people and not yourself? where you simply not notified and the tenant took it upon themselves?

Good point...and if your AST says that T must notify you first (except in real emergency), you may have more of a case for charging such wasted call-outs to him. However, I suspect a judge might say, why did LL/A not inform T the first time it happened, that he should not do that - why did you carry on letting him think it was OK to do so?

[Reading_up]

Good point...and if your AST says that T must notify you first (except in real emergency), you may have more of a case for charging such wasted call-outs to him. However, I suspect a judge might say, why did LL/A not inform T the first time it happened, that he should not do that - why did you carry on letting him think it was OK to do so?

The call outs under the LA were always explained to T as "if no fault found, T is to pay call out fee". The T was informed that if there was a fault they could call a local repairman in an emergency. This way if T said there was a fault I can be seen to be acting responsibly and ensuring tenant is safe and has concerns resolved quickly. Have advised tenant to cease doing this, but been ignored and told my property, my problem.

T has been making call outs, getting tradesmen to the property, then refusing to pay because the fault they reported has not been found (Probably didn't exist in the first place). Tradesmen have been annoyed contacted me asking for payment. T will not speak to them, so I had to pay to get other work done elsewhere.

T does not understand English if it restricts them doing what they want but develops a PHD and Doctorate level of knowledge in English and Law if anyone tries anything against them.

[mind the gap]

The call outs under the LA were always explained to T as "if no fault found, T is to pay call out fee". The T was informed that if there was a fault they could call a local repairman in an emergency. This way if T said there was a fault I can be seen to be acting responsibly and ensuring tenant is safe and has concerns resolved quickly. Have advised tenant to cease doing this, but been ignored and told my property, my problem.

T has been making call outs, getting tradesmen to the property, then refusing to pay because the fault they reported has not been found (Probably didn't exist in the first place). Tradesmen have been annoyed contacted me asking for payment. T will not speak to them, so I had to pay to get other work done elsewhere.

T does not understand English if it restricts them doing what they want but develops a PHD and Doctorate level of knowledge in English and Law if anyone tries anything against them.

Two questions :

1 Does it state in the Tenancy Agreement that T should seek prior apporval from A or LL before calling out tradesmen?

2 Do you have evidence (e.g. log of phone calls to T, letters, A's evidence) that T was advised to stop calling out tradesmen without your prior knowledge and approval?

[Reading_up]

Two questions :

1 Does it state in the Tenancy Agreement that T should seek prior apporval from A or LL before calling out tradesmen?

2 Do you have evidence (e.g. log of phone calls to T, letters, A's evidence) that T was advised to stop calling out tradesmen without your prior knowledge and approval?

1. Contract clauses covering that is as follows, I think.

Pay for the entire invoices and costs of any contractors that the Tenant arranges without having previously obtained the Landlord’s authority, unless acting reasonably to effect emergency repairs for which the Landlord is liable.

Promptly notify the Landlord in writing when the Tenant becomes aware of:
Any defect, damage or want of repair in the Property, other than such as the Tenant is liable to repair in following clause.

Keep the Property including all of the Landlord’s machinery and equipment clean and tidy and in good and tenantable condition, repair and decorative order, (reasonable wear and tear, items which the Landlord is responsible to maintain, and damage for which the Landlord has agreed to insure, excepted)

2. I have text messages detailing that T should not call out tradesmen without fault and that if T did all "no fault found" invoices would be charged against T deposit.
Also have record of T claiming this was unfair and that if I was unable to prove it was safe a third party expert should be called to prove it. The property was in good condition when T moved in and had only recently had checks completed against it.

[mind the gap]

1. Contract clauses covering that is as follows, I think.

Pay for the entire invoices and costs of any contractors that the Tenant arranges without having previously obtained the Landlord’s authority, unless acting reasonably to effect emergency repairs for which the Landlord is liable.

Promptly notify the Landlord in writing when the Tenant becomes aware of:
Any defect, damage or want of repair in the Property, other than such as the Tenant is liable to repair in following clause.

Keep the Property including all of the Landlord’s machinery and equipment clean and tidy and in good and tenantable condition, repair and decorative order, (reasonable wear and tear, items which the Landlord is responsible to maintain, and damage for which the Landlord has agreed to insure, excepted)

2. I have text messages detailing that T should not call out tradesmen without fault and that if T did all "no fault found" invoices would be charged against T deposit.
Also have record of T claiming this was unfair and that if I was unable to prove it was safe a third party expert should be called to prove it. The property was in good condition when T moved in and had only recently had checks completed against it.

In that case, I think you have good grounds for claiming back the cost of the wasted call-outs from her deposit. She sounds a bit neurotic, doesn't she? What did she call tradesmen out for?

And how are you supposed to 'prove' to her beyond any shadow of a doubt that somethingisn't defective, for goodness sake (especially when she is hell bent on believing it is!)? Did she have any good reason to believe that the appliances she called tradesmen out for, were defective?

[Edbergius]

My tenant hasn't paid the last rent installment due at the beginning of March. I have contacted him and he said that his work had messed up his wages and that the standing order had been rejected. Since then he has not answered his phone or text messages.

A deposit was taken for 3 weeks rent by a letting agent (who I have sacked)last year and I have the reference details for it.

Am I able to collect the deposit if the tenant does leave without paying the final rent? Does the tenant have to agree to this, as I am worried that I can't contact him?

Also, my letting agent didn't supply the tenant with a new tenancy agreement when they renewed last year. WOuld this cause a problem if I were to chase for the rent owed to me?

It would be great to know where I stand.

Steve

[mind the gap]

My tenant hasn't paid the last rent installment due at the beginning of March. I have contacted him and he said that his work had messed up his wages and that the standing order had been rejected. Since then he has not answered his phone or text messages.

A deposit was taken for 3 weeks rent by a letting agent (who I have sacked)last year and I have the reference details for it.

Am I able to collect the deposit if the tenant does leave without paying the final rent? Does the tenant have to agree to this, as I am worried that I can't contact him?

Also, my letting agent didn't supply the tenant with a new tenancy agreement when they renewed last year. WOuld this cause a problem if I were to chase for the rent owed to me?

It would be great to know where I stand.

Steve

I know it is frustrating and worrying for you, but until you know your tenant's intentions, there is not a great deal you can do at the moment.

It sounds as if he may have abandoned the property, but that is by no means certain. He may just be on holiday. His explanation of why the rent wasn't paid may be true; or he may be 'playing for time' because he has been made redundant, bought a car, or paid for a holiday - you cannot know.

As it stands, he does not even owe you enough rent to allow you to gain mandatory possession through the section 8, ground 8 route, and you cannot just go in, change the locks and re-let the property, as his tenancy still stands and he could come back and accuse you of illegal eviction.

If you manage to contact him and you both agree to end the tenancy early, (assuming that seems the best option to you - it may not!), then it is best to draw up and have both parties sign, a formal deed of surrender setting out the terms. You could insist he pays the rent up to whichever date you agree upon, for example. If you do not agree a surrender with him, then the only secure way of gaining possession is by serving a s8 (once he owes 2 months' rent - presumably at some point in early April, by which time he will have missed two rent payemnts?); this will involve attending a court hearing with evidence of his payment record.

You will need to check the tenancy contract, and perhaps contact the deposit protection scheme, to check the position with regard to using his deposit for the last month's rent. I believe if the tenant abandons, LL can claim the deposit from the scheme without T's consent after a certain period. The fact that your agents did not issue him with a new written agreement isn't significant, as his old one would have simply become periodic, and he should still give you a month's written notice that he intends to leave on x date. Until he does that, he owes you rent for each month as normal. If he signed a new agreement, and agent just didn't give him a copy, then techniclaly he is liable for whole of fixed term of the new AST - but that is probably not going to be an issue. It sounds as if you just want to know what his plans are for the next few weeks!

Have you tried contacting his workplace? They may know where he is.

[Edbergius]

I drove past the property last weekend and there was a light on in there. I don't think there will be a problem with them overstaying in the property, it's a two bedroom flat and there are now two adults and three children living there. They already mentioned they were looking for a house to rent. I'm guessing he's using my rent money to put towards the deposit on his next place.

I did visit a few weeks ago and the place looked like it was well kept, so hopefully I won't need the deposit for repairs. I think it may be best to visit the property on 1st April, hopefully they would have left and I can then go about getting it rented and chase them for the money, they shouldn't be too difficult to find.

[mind the gap]

I drove past the property last weekend and there was a light on in there. I don't think there will be a problem with them overstaying in the property, it's a two bedroom flat and there are now two adults and three children living there. They already mentioned they were looking for a house to rent. I'm guessing he's using my rent money to put towards the deposit on his next place.

I did visit a few weeks ago and the place looked like it was well kept, so hopefully I won't need the deposit for repairs. I think it may be best to visit the property on 1st April, hopefully they would have left and I can then go about getting it rented and chase them for the money, they shouldn't be too difficult to find.

Be careful. You should not enter the property without your tenants' prior knowledge and permission, even if you believe they have vacated. However unlikely/untrue this seems to you, it can be construed as harassment or illegal eviction. You are only allowed to enter in a genuine life-and death emergency (e.g if house is on fire or flooding). Nor should you take steps to rent it out again until you have a valid surrender or a court order for possession. It's not OK just to go in there and prepare to re-let.

If you cannot contact your tenants, you will just have to go down the section 8 possession route and be patient. You are talking about gaining possession in about two months' time at the very earliest - perhaps longer.

[mind the gap]

If you do have good reason to believe the property has been abandoned, you may find the suggestions at the end of this thread useful, too:

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=17666

Hope that helps?

[oscar84]

I have tenants that have just gone into the last month of their AST. They have been erractic paying the rent and this months payment is now overdue. I know they are hoping to stay on at the property. If I would rather take the option of ending the tenancy at the end of the 6 month period, what action should I now take to avoid tenancy lapsing into a statutory periodic tenancy and then having to serve 2 months notice.

[Lawcruncher]

what action should I now take to avoid tenancy lapsing into a statutory periodic tenancy and then having to serve 2 months notice.

There is no action you can take. If the tenants remain in occupation a periodic tenancy arises.

[jeffrey]

I have tenants that have just gone into the last month of their AST. They have been erractic paying the rent and this months payment is now overdue. I know they are hoping to stay on at the property. If I would rather take the option of ending the tenancy at the end of the 6 month period, what action should I now take to avoid tenancy lapsing into a statutory periodic tenancy and then having to serve 2 months notice.
It's too late now for any s.21 Notice to operate at the fixed term expiry date. Had you wanted that, the s.21(1)(b) Notice needed to be sent at least two months beforehand.

Options:
1. Serve s.21(1)(b) Notice now. As long as it's sent during fixed term, it will take effect two months from service date.
2. Serve s.21(4)(a) Notice after fixed term expiry. It will take effect after the rent period first ending more than two months from service date.
3. Serve s.8 Notice on grounds 10 (rent arrears) and 11 (persistent late payment). These are only discretionary grounds for possession, however- but, if more than two months' rent is unpaid, also use ground 8 [mandatory ground for possession].

[oscar84]

Thanks for your replies. So for a 6 month tenancy to end at the end of the 6 month period, then after 4 months you need to serve a s21 notice? Also I presume service date is the start of the tenancy - is that correct?

[justaboutsane]

You need to issue the section 21 BEFORE the end of 4 months for it to be effective.

Date of service is the date you send it.

[jeffrey]

You need to issue the section 21 BEFORE the end of 4 months for it to be effective.
...as at term expiry date. The s.21 Notice can also be effective even if served:
a. ['option 1'] less than two months before that date (but then the Notice period of two months inevitably protrudes beyond term expiry); or
b. ['option 2'] after term expiry.

[Rachel47]

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone can give me some advice.
I'm renting out a student house with three other people, the tenancy is due to end the beginning of July. The house is an absolute joke, there is damp everywhere which has led to mold growing in the bathroom, and appliances such as washing machine and fridge keep breaking.
The last rent installment was paid in April, although I paid him £70 short of what I owed due to a dry cleaning bill (L/L fault as he painted the front door black and failed to tell anyone) and a £40 food bill...Id been shopping and had to bin everything as the fridge packed in the next day. He is now saying I owe him £95, (apparently £20 was from a previous rent installment which he neglected to tell me at the time. I've explained to him why the rent was what it was and he said he will pay the cleaning bill but I have to pay the £70. I dont have that money spare as I'm due to go travelling in a month and have little money as it is. The most I could spare is £30. Would he be able to take legal action against me for the remainding '£40'??? I'd be willing to move out 2 weeks earlier to make up for it (rent is £50 a month)

Any help would be great!!!

[cdmg]

Dear all,

I have been renting my house for the past 9 months and my first tenant did not pay the last month rent because she said that the deposit would cover the rent she owed.

My second tenant has now asked to terminate his tenancy earlier which I agreed in principle. However, his rent is 9 days late; he told me that he had paid it on Tuesday (although he had said that he had paid it before) but I still have not received anything on the account. I have the feeling that he is going to do the same thing as the previous tenant, i.e. use the deposit to pay the last month rent.

Would anybody have any tip(s) as to how to avoid this kind of situation? At the moment, the deposit is the equivalent of one month's rent. Should I increase it?

My current tenancy agreement has the following clause regarding the deposit:

On the signing of this Agreement, the Tenant shall pay to the Landlord the Deposit as security for the Landlord in respect of:

a. any rent or other payments due from the Tenant which remain unpaid;
b. any damage to the Premises or the items listed in the Inventory for which the Tenant may be liable; etc....

Should I consider removing a. above?

Thank you very much for any advice you may be able to give me.

Regards,
Catherine

[Lawcruncher]

a. any rent or other payments due from the Tenant which remain unpaid;
b. any damage to the Premises or the items listed in the Inventory for which the Tenant may be liable; etc....

Should I consider removing a. above?

I do not think so. Just think it through. It will mean that you will not be able to use the deposit if the tenant does a moonlight flit leaving the property immaculate.

The fact is that there is really little you can do about a tenant who says: "Take the last month's rent from the deposit." Tenants do this because they have heard a lot of horror stories. Apart from that, they may want to pay a deposit to someone else and if they have a cash flow problem they can best do this by taking it from the last month's rent. If you have got to the last month of a tenancy without a problem you are doing a lot better than many landlords.

[AngelaSykes]

My tenant has not paid their final month's rent and is not responding to my attempts to contact them about his by email and mobile. When, over a month ago, they gave me two month's notice that they wanted to end the tenancy, they mentioned they were planning to move the America in September.

If they do not pay the outstanding rent before the end of their tenancy, and they leave the country, what are my options to claim the outstanding rental?

Any advice would be most welcome.

[SALL]

My tenant has not paid their final month's rent and is not responding to my attempts to contact them about his by email and mobile. When, over a month ago, they gave me two month's notice that they wanted to end the tenancy, they mentioned they were planning to move the America in September.

If they do not pay the outstanding rent before the end of their tenancy, and they leave the country, what are my options to claim the outstanding rental?

Any advice would be most welcome.



Well you can take them to court for the money owed, but it is hard enough to extract money from people within the UK let alone someone in another country.

In your position I would try to make contact with them and try to get possession of the property as soon as they leave (or through court)

Server Section 21 and Section 8 (ground 8, 10 and 11 if they apply) notices, just to be on the safe side.

[Mulder]

My tenant is leaving the UK at the end of this month to return to South Africa, he decided that rather then pay his last months rent which was due on 31st July 2009, he'd use his rent money to pay for his airfare home. He said that I should use his deposit to pay for his last months rent. This contravenes his tenenancy agreement but as it takes me 2 months up here in Edinburgh to evict him I have no chance of pursuing this avenue.

I have inspected the property he lets from me and there is approx £350 worth of damges mainly to kitchen appliances that he is liable for. As he is off to another country I have NO chance of being paid these damages and he knows it !!!

Does anyone know if I removed the electricity fuses from the mains box (I have permission to gain entry to the property on Monday) what sort of action I can expect to be taken against me?

[jta]

Does anyone know if I removed the electricity fuses from the mains box (I have permission to gain entry to the property on Monday) what sort of action I can expect to be taken against me?

It's called harassment, and judges take a very dim view of it. :(

[tom999]

Removing fuses is hardly going to help in your situation of lost rent.

If its to deny tenant access to electricity, then your are breaching your obligation at a landlord to e.g. keep the gas, water, electricity, in good repair and proper working order, and a court may see this as harrasment of tenant.

Understand that its a tricky situation with tenant about to do a runner, but for rent recovery, use correct legal procedures, not underhand tactics.

Learn from this experience and move on.

[Emma1973]

I would have thought at the very least you would lose your licence, you do have a licence I'm presuming?

[alteano1965]

Hi

My partner owns a flat which she has been renting for 2 years to the same tenant. At the beginning of the AST she took a month's deposit from the tenat, who 3 months later asked if he could use that deposit to pay for a months rent, she agreed and did not receive any rent payments for that month. The tenant has been paying their monthly rent ever since, but I am concerned that
!- The original deposit was not placed in a DPS
2- The deposit was "refunded " to the tenat who used it as rent 16 months ago.
3- Could we be regarded as still holding that deposit?

Thank you for any opinions on this matter.

ALT

[jta]

Hi

!- The original deposit was not placed in a DPS
2- The deposit was "refunded " to the tenat who used it as rent 16 months ago.
3- Could we be regarded as still holding that deposit?

Thank you for any opinions on this matter.

ALT

It's easy to see where this could go pear-shaped.
Was there any paperwork to prove the deposit was refunded?
If not, and in any case, you will be better to consider the T to be one month in arrears and stick the deposit in a scheme. At least you are covering yourselves against a possible future claim.
You could explain to the T that you are just complying with the law, as it stands, and that you will claim the money back at the end of the tenancy.
Also, you cannot use the S21 procedure if a deposit is not protected.

[johnjw]

Since you are not holding a deposit, there should be no problem related to the DPS.
Perhaps you are anticipating a problem because you gave a receipt for the original deposit but did not ask for a receipt when you returned the deposit.
If so, why not ask your tenant to sign a receipt now; this would acknowledge the fact that the original deposit paid was used by mutual agreement to pay the month 3 rent.
A reasonable person will see the need for a formal written record of financial transactions related to the tenancy.

[jeffrey]

Was the original deposit paid before 6 April 2007?

[alteano1965]

Thank you for your replies.

The tenancy was signed after April 2007, but actually the tenant did not have enough money at the time of signing, so the space stating the amount he was paying for a deposit was left blank and crossed with a line. He did pay a deposit 2 weeks later, but was never recorded, finally 3 months later he asked to use this as his 3rd month rent. Maybe we should have written NIL or 0.0 in the box instead of just a line on the tenancy agreement. We are a bit confussed as to whether legally we are still holding a deposit or not, on the other hand is it very unussual for a Landlord not to hold a security deposit?

Alt.

[Seany10]

What are the rules regarding taking the final rent from a deposit held in the TDS? There was no inventory, and plus the flat will be left in the same condition as when we moved in. Only problem is that we cannot afford a deposit and months rent on a new flat, unless we don't pay our final rent.

It doesn't say on the Tenancy Agreement that we cannot do this, but as it's in the TDS I wasn't sure if there were other rules?

Thanks.

[Paul Gibbs]

if you fail to pay your last months rent then LL will claim both that months rent and any sums due for any damage.

If the total amount he claims is more than the deposit LL may decide to sue you in court. LL could submit a claim to TDS asking for the deposit to be released to him, and then he could sue you for the difference.

[Jaybee542]

Whilst a tenant is contractually obliged to pay the last months rent, the reality is some don't and there doesn't appear to be a lot a LL can do about it other than claim it from the deposit. If there are additional damages, the LL can still pursue the T for this. A LL might, however, choose to give a Tenant a negative reference if they failed to pay the last months rent.

[Seany10]

Thanks. We had a disagreement over an emergency call out for a plumber which I paid for myself and deducted from the rent as it wiped out my bank account and had no choice. The Landlord says it was unnecessary but I have a letter from the plumber saying otherwise.
I can see this as the only thing he would want to claim from the deposit.

[Rob_T]

As a general question - Is there anything a landlord can do to stop, or at least reduce the risk of tenants not paying the last month's rent? From reading the previous messages on this thread, it would appear not. But either I am very unlucky or I'm doing something wrong, because none of my 4 previous tenants have paid their last month's rent. Instead, they have all told me to use the deposit (despite it saying in the tenancy agreement that this is not allowed). This just completely defeats the object of taking a deposit in the first place, as I am left at the end of the tenancy with no deposit to pay for potential damages or losses.

Any tips or suggestions would be greatfully receieved.

P.S. Am I correct in adding a new question to this existing thread, as it is on the same theme - or should I have started a new thread? (I've only just become a member, so I'm not sure of the etiquette).

[tom999]

Is there anything a landlord can do to stop, or at least reduce the risk of tenants not paying the last month's rent?
If damage has been caused, then LL could potentially sue T for breach of contract (not paying final month's rent and for property damage). In practice, if no damage has been caused, many LL's just accept the deposit as long as it covers the final month's rent.

One way of guarding against this, is to take 1.5 - 2+ months rent as a deposit, but many T's may not be able to afford this.

[NoviceLL]

As a general question - Is there anything a landlord can do to stop, or at least reduce the risk of tenants not paying the last month's rent? From reading the previous messages on this thread, it would appear not. But either I am very unlucky or I'm doing something wrong, because none of my 4 previous tenants have paid their last month's rent. Instead, they have all told me to use the deposit (despite it saying in the tenancy agreement that this is not allowed). This just completely defeats the object of taking a deposit in the first place, as I am left at the end of the tenancy with no deposit to pay for potential damages or losses.

Any tips or suggestions would be greatfully receieved.

P.S. Am I correct in adding a new question to this existing thread, as it is on the same theme - or should I have started a new thread? (I've only just become a member, so I'm not sure of the etiquette).

Hi,

I am a newbie LL so don't have any experience....but....could you not ask a future tenant for both a deposit and a month's rent in advance? OK a cynic might say that they could then chip off and not pay the last two month's rent, but hey, might be an idea (if it's legal!!)

[Mrs Jones]

No tenant gets into any of my properties without paying 1.5 months rent as deposit, and a months rent in advance. If they can't afford to do this, I take the view that their finances are unlikely to support renting my property.

[house275]

Our LL wont be getting our last months rent im afraid I shall tell him to use our deposit

Due to the slimy Git of a LA he employed I simply don't trust him an inch to return our deposit
I know all about the supposed protection as our deposit is in a scheme but we have to look out for ourselves
I shall leave this house spotless and photograph every wall and floor in every room every appliance meter reading will be pictured too and it will all be witnessed by an impartial person

Our LL will suffer as he will have to wait but he entrusted his property to a totally unprofessional LA who lies every time he opens his shifty mouth

He refuses to give us direct contact details for the owner whos abroad so the owner sadly will never know how we have been treated by his LA :cool:

[Mrs Jones]

"Some landlords prefer to deal through agents and remain anonymous as far as their tenants are concerned. However, under the provisions of the Landlord & Tenant Act 1985, tenants of dwellings in England & Wales, who make a written request to an agent, have a right to the landlord's name and address.

This information must be supplied within 21 days. The legislation refers only to the landlord's name and address, not his telephone number or any other form of contact details."

[house275]

Already done that
He gave us the lanlords fathers address who pretends to speak/understand no english ! funny that because he did six months ago :mad:

[maddam78]

hi, i'm at the end of my AST, need to move out on 1 march, i have decidet to use my deposit as a last month rent without checking my contract. my LL rang me to ask for rent and told me that in the contract is writen that deposit can't be used as a last month rent and that's correct. i'm in financial hardship and already paid a deposit to let something else. also he said that if i'll not pay my rent by the end of the week he'll give me 1 week notice to move.
my question is what action hecan take against me? my deposit is not protected by deposit procetion scheme
thanks very much for any advice

[Telometer]

Why is your deposit not protected by deposit protection scheme?

Does your landlord live with you (presumably not?).

Assuming you are on an AST, then it is unlikely that your landlord can take any legal action against you until you are two months behind on the rent.

You may choose to let him kick you out of the place by changing the locks, and then you can go to court and sue him for a lot of money.

[jeffrey]

No, you can't. L can serve a s.8 Notice (even though he did not protect) but not a s.21 Notice.

[Lawcruncher]

A clause in a tenancy agreement to the effect that the tenant may not apply the deposit to the last month's rent is:

(a) unnecessary as the tenant is not supposed to do it anyway

and

(b) pretty pointless since if the tenant does it there is not a lot the landlord can do about it practically. By the time any action for the rent gets to court the tenant will have gone. There is no point suing when you have got the amount covered.

The best you can hope to achieve is that a timid tenant will take notice.

[maddam78]

thank you all

[intelligence69]

No you cannot - this is normally stated within your AST.

The purpose of your deposit is to cover any damage, outstanding bills. This is why you can't use your deposit as last mont rent - this will be same as in your new place so you have to understand from the Landlord perspective.

[GJMSurrey]

Putting aside the legalities, Maddam, from the Landlords perspective (to be appreciated) is that the deposit is (mainly) to protect against damages by the tenant while living within the property. If you used it to pay the last months rent and then continue to damage the property in this last month, what security does the Landlord have?

Deposit is security rather than cashflow and thus should be viewed separately to rent.

[Lawcruncher]

I think a tenant's perspective can be:

1. I have personal experience of or have heard stories about how landlords refuse to hand over deposits without good reason or simply hang around for ever before paying up. I am not taking any chances.

2. I need a deposit for my next property and I need to pay it before my present tenancy ends. I simply have not got the resources to pay another deposit. I'll cover it by not paying the last month's rent.

3. Last month's rent coming up. Hang on a minute the landlord is holding a sum equal to one month's rent. He can take it from that. Daft to pay him when he has only got to give the same amount back.

A deposit is (usually) security for:

(a) Rent

(b) Damages for breach of covenant.

It covers both equally. If your tenant has been paying on time up to the last month the deposit has fulfilled its function as security for rent. Of course if anything is due for damages there is nothing to cover it, but there would be nothing to cover damages if the tenant had stopped paying rent after the first instalment.

None of the above alters the fact that the tenant has no right to set the deposit off against the last month's rent, but in practice there is not a lot a landlord can do about it.

[Sportingdad]

legally = no
real world= yes
Agent/Landlord will use a bit of brain next time and take 6 weeks.

[Ericthelobster]

Just wondered, is it the experience of landlords here that the number of tenants pulling this trick has changed at all since the introduction of deposit protection schemes?

(Can't say I've ever really had a problem with it personally; but I'm a 6-week man myself!)

[westminster]

(Can't say I've ever really had a problem with it personally; but I'm a 6-week man myself!)
I do six weeks. No problems. Never had a tenant not pay the last month except my first ever tenant who was an absolute disaster but resulted in an epic learning curve. Really good credit checks help, obviously.

[grouse]

I think a tenant's perspective can be:


2. I need a deposit for my next property and I need to pay it before my present tenancy ends. I simply have not got the resources to pay another deposit. I'll cover it by not paying the last month's rent.


None of the above alters the fact that the tenant has no right to set the deposit off against the last month's rent, but in practice there is not a lot a landlord can do about it.

Unless the tenant needs the landlord to provide a reference for the next property, in which case the tenant may end up losing both....

[allie24]

Hello,

Myself and my two flatmates have given our notice to move out of our flat at the end of next month.

We've had trouble with the letting agency since we moved in. When we signed the lease, they didn't do a walkthrough with us or take a written record of damages present in the flat (first mistake on our part - not demanding that).

They have typically let this flat to students so they haven't bothered keeping it in a very good state of repair under the assumption the students are just going to destroy it again anyway. When we moved in, the flat had not been properly cleaned and we had to spend a weekend scrubbing the entire place down. The paint in certain areas is peeling off the walls, and there are tons of marks from tape and blue tac in both bedrooms and some other areas. One of the employees of the letting agency even admitted to us that they had withheld the previous tenant's deposit, however as far as we can tell they didn't use that money to put fix anything in the flat. There's also a huge inventory list that includes things like broken appliances and broken dishes, and the carpets in the bedrooms are terrible, etc.

We've had nothing but headaches and stress when dealing with this letting agency, and we seriously believe they will withhold most or all of our deposit despite the fact that we haven't added any new damage to the flat and intend to leave it in a much cleaner state than it was when we arrived. My flatmates have decided to withhold the final month's rent, but provide the letting agency with a letter outlining all the problems we've had and all the damage that was pre-existing, and our reasons for leaving them to take the final month's rent from our deposit. We also plan to offer to pay for any damage they can find that they can prove was caused by us. Should we offer to pay any interest they might be losing on the deposit? What is the typical interest rate they would be getting?

It's my understanding that the only action they can take against us will be to take us to small claims court, but we could counter claim for the amount of the withheld deposit and force them to prove any damages. Is this correct? Anything else we should do to cover ourselves in the event they take action against us? I'm not sure how strong our case would be as we have minimal pictures from when we first moved in, and we failed to make a written record as the letting agency never did a walk through with us. Obviously we'd like to avoid small claims court, but we can't afford to lose the deposit money on bogus claims, and we are all moving out of the UK shortly after so we won't be around to try to fight for our deposit back if we were to pay our last month's rent.

Sorry for the length, but any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Snorkerz]

Presuming your deposit is in a deposit protection scheme, the agent will only be able to take money from your deposit (that you dispute) to cover damages that they can prove you caused. Without a starting inventory, your agent/landlord would find this extremely difficult to prove.

So, presuming the agent would not win any unfair deductions, you have nothing to fear by completing your tenancy correctly, within the terms of your agreement - ie, pay your rent.

If you do not pay the last months rent then yes, they will take it from the deposit, BUT you will also have to deal with the fact that when your next landlord asks for a reference - "did they pay their rent reliably?" the answer is going to be a big fat "NO". Bye-bye new tenancy :(

[allie24]

Part of the problem is we won't be in the country long enough to take any action should they choose to keep our deposit. It will be unfortunate to have the bad reference, but there's no guarantee any of us will be renting in the UK in the future anyway so it might never be an issue...

[Snorkerz]

Your choice of course - but the deposit scheme will not require you to be in the UK - just let them know your details before you go anywhere.

[P.Pilcher]

IF your deposit has been put in a scheme and you have received written information about it and the scheme in which it is placed, you have nothing to worry about. However I note that you have made no reference to this in your posts. If you have not been so notified, then witholding the last month's rent, for the reasons you state, should be seriously considered.

P.P.

[allie24]

As far as we know, there was no deposit scheme. We received no notification or details of a scheme, there is simply a clause on the lease saying we will pay 1000 pounds deposit (equivalent of one month's rent) and that it will stay in our letting agency's bank account for the duration of our tenancy and they can withhold part or all to cover losses. We're in Scotland, I'm under the impression the deposit scheme is only required in England/Wales? I think we're going to call them tomorrow just to ask if it was protected by a scheme but I'm fairly certain the answer is going to be no.

[Moderator1]

Several largely similar questions on separate threads have been merged into this thread (hence the repetitive nature of answers).

[platforminc]

My friend has her deposit with her landlord with a deposit scheme apparently, she doesnt have any money at the moment and has asked the landlord that her last months rent should be paid using her deposit. The landlord said that the money is with the tenancy deposit scheme and for her to make efforts at retrieving it, she will be charging my friend.

I would like to ask pro's here as to where she stands and what can be done.

Thanks in advance.

[Snorkerz]

My friend has her deposit with her landlord with a deposit scheme apparently, she doesnt have any money at the moment and has asked the landlord that her last months rent should be paid using her deposit. The landlord said that the money is with the tenancy deposit scheme and for her to make efforts at retrieving it, she will be charging my friend.

I would like to ask pro's here as to where she stands and what can be done.

Thanks in advance.She needs to check her tenancy agreement. Most prohibit the deposit being used by the tenant as rent. If that is the case, then she either abides by her tenancy agreement and pays the rent, or she complies with whatever conditions the landlord is imposing.

She needs to remember that she may well be needing a reference from this person in future and 'rent problems' are the one thing a prospective landlord does NOT want to see on a reference.

[Springfields]

No her last months rent is for any damages in the property. you can use this for any missed rent however it cannot be release from the scheme prior to the tenancy ending.

If she tells the tenant she is understanding of her situation but the deposits stuck in situ until the end of the tenancy and will be returned following a satisfactory check out on the property

[Snorkerz]

OPs friend is the tenant

[platforminc]

she just hasnt got the months rent, the flat is genuinely in a good condition. Anything can be done here ?

[mind the gap]

.

If she tells the tenant she is understanding of her situation but the deposits stuck in situ

But the deposit is not 'stuck' anywhere, let alone 'in situ' (what do you mean by that phrase?) If both LL and T agree to release it, it will be released by the deposit protection scheme before the end of the tenancy.

It is not normally in the LL's interests to release it early, however.

[jrsteeve]

The landlord shouldn't be charging anything for retrieving the deposit as it costs nothing, but your friend is in the wrong as the deposit is simply not meant to cover arrears. If it needs any cleaning or repairs the landlord will be out of pocket.

[mind the gap]

she just hasnt got the months rent, the flat is genuinely in a good condition. Anything can be done here ?

It's tough, I'm afraid. Unless the LL agrees to risk accepting the deposit in lieu of rent, she will just have to default the rent and risk the consequences - or borrow some money to pay it with. (It's amazing how many tenants suddenly find they cannot afford the rent for the last month, having paid it without any problems for the rest of the tenancy.:rolleyes:)

Nor would you believe how many times tenants (or their friends/relatives) will swear on their granny's grave that the property has been kept immaculate, it's now twice as clean as when they moved in, etc., etc., (and it may well look reasonable, to the sympathetic eye) - only for the LL genuinely to find a catalogue of minor disrepair/cleaning/items missing, all of which needs sorting -and paying for - out once they have vacated. If they've accepted the deposit as rent, they are going to be out of pocket.

[Snorkerz]

The landlord shouldn't be charging anything for retrieving the deposit.

I don't think this is totally unreasonable. If tenant does what she should - morally and legally - then she will not have to pay the charge. If she wants the landlord to bend the rules then all bets are off - she pays or the rules don't get bent.

[Springfields]

"stuck" ok bad use of word We send deposit £ to DPS and will not request until end of tenancy. You would have literally every other tenant asking to pay with the last months rent otherwise and we would not be protecting the Landlords best interest if we did.

A month is a long time to be in a property without security of a deposit.. plus how can you do a full inspection whilst a tt is still in the property? You get a better idea when their items have been removed - anyone never found that a piece of furniture has been placed to hide a coffee stain etc?

As the Landlord is not happy with this any way I would suggest that they negotiate with the tenant on what she can pay - perhaps 50% and then the rest could be deducted at the end of the tenancy via the deposit.

Its a bit of a catch 22 I suppose.
I am sorry for my poor wording (and spelling should I have made any errors in this regard)

[SteveHello1234]

Hi Guys,

I'm new here - and a newish LL so please be gentle !

My tenant has done a runner, leaving the last one months rent unpaid. I have email and text confirmation that she is happy for us to have the deposit to pay this amount.

So we have claimed the full deposit back from the DPS

But - she hasn't actually released the funds from the DPS back to us and its looking as though she may not do so....

What happens if she doesn't reply to the DPS communications - does the deposit come back to us anyway ?

Cheers

Steve

[jta]

Use the single claim process, save the emails in case you need them.

[Snorkerz]

You will have to go through the DPS' "single claim process". It is a simple form, but does need to be witnessed by a solicitor. There is a fixed fee for this - £5 plus £2 for any exhibits that are also witnessed.

[SteveHello1234]

Thanks guys - what are the timescales involved ? The tenancy ended on the 31st July

[missiemog]

first time poster - please be kind!

this may well be a stupid question, but can i use my deposit as the final month's rent?

(i'm asking as we've got to find £1400 for next place, and using the deposit will free up £650 making less to find - based in Scotland if that makes a difference)

thanks in advance for responses.

[jeffrey]

No, you can't. The deposit is a deposit, refundable only after L has checked the premises once you've handed them back after vacating- whereas the final month's rent falls due when the letting's final month begins.

[TenantsLuvMe]

first time poster - please be kind!

this may well be a stupid question, but can i use my deposit as the final month's rent?

(i'm asking as we've got to find £1400 for next place, and using the deposit will free up £650 making less to find - based in Scotland if that makes a difference)

thanks in advance for responses.

This should be expressly forbidden in the tenancy agreement.
The reason for this is that if the deposit is used for rent, the landlord has nothing to turn to should it turn out that he has to make deductions for any damage, missing items, cleaning, etc. as well as non-payment of rent.

[Snorkerz]

Your agreement probably says specifically that the tenant can't do this.

[sooper]

Hi, i think ive come across a very good solution to this.

Make sure the deposit you agree with the tenant is a reasonable amount MORE than the last months rent. It they try to disappear they lose more than a months rent and theyll have second thoughts before trying to retain a months rent know that you have more in deposit.

[Ericthelobster]

Hi, i think ive come across a very good solution to this.

Make sure the deposit you agree with the tenant is a reasonable amount...which is exactly what a great many landlords already do (yours truly included)

[raf1975]

Hi all
My tenant is moving out on 3rddecember.
Rang me yesterday if i can use his deposit as a last month rent
I said no,
How to quick and safe complete his leaving and pay his deposit back??

Please help me,
raf

[jeffrey]

1. Does T's tenancy (fixed term) expire on 3 December itself?
2. Other than the final month's rent, does T owe you anything else?
3. How will you verify that the premises are handed-back in apple-pie order (i.e. nothing needs deducting from the deposit)?i
4. Is the deposit statutorily protected?
A. If it is, with which Scheme?
B. If it is not, why not?

[pongo4]

This was quite a common occurence, before the new Tenancy Deposit Schemes, for the tenant to not pay the last momth of rent instead of waiting for the deposit. Can anybody tell me if this is still common practice and if there are any measures to stop it it under the new deposit schemes?

[jta]

Yes still quite common. As a result more and more landlords are asking for a six week deposit now.

[kittikat]

Under the new scheme the LL does not hold the deposit so the T can not withhold rent against it, or if they did leave themselves open to a SCC case

[Snorkerz]

Under the new scheme the LL does not hold the deposit so the T can not withhold rent against it, or if they did leave themselves open to a SCC caseBut in reality, the LL will just claim against the deposit scheme which is cheaper than going to court. I don't believe there is a sure-fire way to stop this happening - Ts who would contemplate this tend to be the sort who wouldn't be too worried about a lack of reference. They are probably using the last months rent to put down a deposit on a new place anyway.

[Ericthelobster]

Under the new scheme the LL does not hold the deposit so the T can not withhold rent against it, or if they did leave themselves open to a SCC caseTenants 'could' never withhold rent against the deposit before the deposit schemes existed, either - whether the deposit was or is held in a scheme makes no difference to that or the likelihood that a tenant will withhold the deposit.

[schocca]

I find the best way to avoid this is to always make sure the deposit is never equal to the monthly rent. Every time the rent is equal to the deposit, I've seen problems.

Also, if you make the deposit short of the monthly rent, then the tenant always needs to pay something in the last month. If it's greater, then the tenant is keen to get all their money back (as the deposit is a significant chunk of cash)...

[Moderator1]

Several largely similar questions on separate threads have been merged into this thread (hence the repetitive nature of answers).