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missb
26-08-2006, 11:47 AM
Hi All,

I'm new to LLZ and been reading some of the past posts which appear to refute what my letting agent has advised.

We have until just recently had a very good relationship with our LL, we have been here 18m. Our tenancy date was set up for the 18th, 2 months ago due to personal finances I rang the agent and asked to change this date. I paid the prorata amount and the rent date altered to 25th.

I believed this meant if I wanted to give notice that this date was the date I needed to do it by. I am told that this is the new payment date only, the date I need to advise my intent to leave is still the 18th, is this correct? We just gave notice to leave and of course were told as we missed the 18th we are now stuck here until 17th November. Financially this is not great as we have a house we are selling we don't live in that just had a sale fall though on after 4 months + we are buying another house. Potentially I will be responsible for 3 properties.

The house we are renting is also for sale which I have no problem with as we are doing our thing but whilst there has only been a few viewings between the LL and the selling agent (diff to the letting agent) they can not get anything right, dates and times messed up, communication gone mad.

I have been really reasonable and actually very helpful assisting agents viewng and even doing the viewings but no more. I want to know my rights. I believe I do not need to let anyone in to view the house for sale unless I am in the last 8 weeks of the tenancy which I am not? I thought I had the right to change locks, the letting agent says I need the LL permission as that's what's in the AST? The letting agent who has been very nice tells me they can send a 24hr access letter but I read on this site they still need my permission??

Is this all standard or is this dependant on each persons AST? I don't want to be a cow but I've had a gut full of agents and sales cr@p the past few days and this is just the icing on the cake. BTW I don't care about getting a reference.

Thanks

Jennifer_M
26-08-2006, 12:44 PM
You didn't state the start date on your tenancy agreement and the length of the fixed term which makes it difficult to advise.

Assuming you had an AST for six month that wasn't renewed, you now would be in a periodic tenancy.
According to the dates you are giving, it seems you want/are required to give 2 months notice, however a tenant is only required to give 1 month notice in a periodic tenancy.
This means if you gave notice this month after the 18th, you could effectively leave 17th October.

Regarding viewings you don't have to accept any, with or without a 24hrs notice. If you want to be awkward you can simply write to the agent saying you won't allow anyone in the property until you leave. They might argue but they can only legally enter the property without your prior permission in a case of emergency such as gas leak or fire.

That said you might not care about references but you might care about your deposit. They could make it difficult for you to get it back.

missb
26-08-2006, 13:28 PM
Thanks for your reply Jennifer.

I was on an AST started 18th Feb 2005. We are now on periodic. and have been for nearly 12m. Are you saying that I only have to give 1 months notice? The letter to leave was delivered on 25th (new payment date) Aug. The dates I entered were stating the 2 months notice I was advised I had to give and that I would be leaving on 17th Oct. Can this letter still stand even though they say it is wrong?

Yes, you are very right I do need my deposit back. Funny thing is I have a very good relationship with the letting agent and she has assured me that if the property is left in a good condition I will receive the deposit. I am planning on vacating a few days early to meet with the agent to have the property agreed it is in good condition and signed off prior to me handing it back. In case there are any issues I have a few days to remedy.

Thanks

lawstudent
26-08-2006, 13:40 PM
I'm new to LLZ
welcome
Our tenancy date was set up for the 18th, 2 months ago due to personal finances I rang the agent and asked to change this date. I paid the prorata amount and the rent date altered to 25th... I am told that this is the new payment date only, the date I need to advise my intent to leave is still the 18th, is this correct?
yes
I thought I had the right to change locks, the letting agent says I need the LL permission as that's what's in the AST?
In that case you would be in breach of contract if you did so
The letting agent who has been very nice tells me they can send a 24hr access letter but I read on this site they still need my permission??
True
Is this all standard or is this dependant on each persons AST?
the latter
I don't want to be a cow but I've had a gut full of agents and sales cr@p the past few days and this is just the icing on the cake. BTW I don't care about getting a reference
well don't worry - you are unlikely to get one

it sounds like your landlord and you deserve each other :)

missb
26-08-2006, 14:10 PM
it sounds like your landlord and you deserve each other :)

Cheers, do you have any comment about the notice period I am required to give of either 1 or 2 months?

lawstudent
26-08-2006, 14:20 PM
Cheers, do you have any comment about the notice period I am required to give of either 1 or 2 months?
unless otherwise agreed to in the lease it is one month

missb
26-08-2006, 14:45 PM
Thanks, I've checked the lease and it does state 2 months but this AST ended Aug 2005. We have been on periodic for 1yr now. Can anyone advise if this means the periodic negates the previous AST? Is it 1 or 2 months I needed to give?

Thanks

P.Pilcher
26-08-2006, 16:39 PM
A periodic tenancy carries exactly the same terms as the AST which preceded it. If the latter agreement did not refer to any notice periods, then these are two months (landlord to tenant) and one month (tenant to landlord). No notice period can be less than this unless mutually agreed, however if your original agreement required you to give two months notice to your landlord then this does not change when our agreement becomes statutory periodic.

P.P.

Tassotti
26-08-2006, 16:42 PM
If the original AST stated 2 months notice must be given, isn't this classed as an unfair term, considering a tenant doesn't have to give any notice in a fixed period?

Tass

lawstudent
26-08-2006, 18:36 PM
interesting point tass - a clause requiring 2 months' notice would have no effect if the tenant decided to leave at the end of the fixed term but it might come into effect and become meaningful, and not unfair, after the fixed term, if the tenant stayed on

it would be interesting to know exactly how it was worded in this case - over to you, missb

missb
26-08-2006, 20:30 PM
Thanks for the comments. It is listed in the agreement as follows:

'To give two months calendar notice in writing to determine this agreement by the calendar date this agreement is dated.'

I was aware it was 2 months, I just thought as I had changed the payment date to the 25th this 2 months would be from 25th not 18th. If by any chance I can get around it I will otherwise I stand to be responsible 2 mortgages and 1 rent until Nov which I can do without.

Edited to add that I've just read this thread here discussing similar, is this good news for me? http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=2706

Sorry, edited again to add this: http://www.painsmith.co.uk/painsmithfiles/articles/termination.pdf
It also states 1 month half way down on page 3. Any comments?

Thanks

missb
27-08-2006, 01:52 AM
Hi Again,

I've been reading and I think I am able to serve notice to the LL to request new terms on the basis that 1 yr has past since the end of the AST. It appears I may need to specify changed rent to reflect these terms. Does anyone know how this works and if I did this the aim would be to have a decision before 18th Sept obviously to alter this 2 months to 1 month assuming that I am not already on 1 month on a stat periodic tenancy.

Any comments?
Thanks

MrShed
27-08-2006, 03:06 AM
You can ask him, but he is not obliged to give you a new AST, with or without changed terms.

missb
27-08-2006, 11:49 AM
You can ask him, but he is not obliged to give you a new AST, with or without changed terms.

Why would I ask for a new AST, wouldn't this have to be a new 6 months? I want out sooner rather than later, as it stands my notice stated 17th Oct but I'm told I have to stay until 17th Nov. I read somewhere last night that it could be deemed an unfair term if it was making the tenant stay in a house they no longer needed and was causing undue financial strain which this will.

Thanks

pippay
27-08-2006, 12:34 PM
You previously asked if you could "serve notice to the LL to request new terms on the basis that 1 yr has past since the end of the AST" .. which is in effect stating that you want another AST.

The periodic tenancy (after the expiry of the initial fixed term) retains all the terms of the original fixed term tenancy and the only way it can be changed is by issuing another AST.

I think the question you are trying to ask is whether the AST clause stating a two month notice period will over-ride the statutory period of one month ending of the last day of a rental period or not, which i'm afraid I'm not qualified to answer. Perhaps someone else can.

As far as I am aware, in order to establish whether a particular clause is unfair or not, you would need to go to court and get a court judgement on it ...

Would it not just be easier just to see if you can negotiate a notice period that both parties will feel is fair?


Why would I ask for a new AST, wouldn't this have to be a new 6 months? I want out sooner rather than later, as it stands my notice stated 17th Oct but I'm told I have to stay until 17th Nov. I read somewhere last night that it could be deemed an unfair term if it was making the tenant stay in a house they no longer needed and was causing undue financial strain which this will.

Thanks

MrShed
27-08-2006, 12:35 PM
Well what are you on about serving notice for new terms???

missb
27-08-2006, 14:18 PM
Well what are you on about serving notice for new terms???

mmm, I prob have no idea... I thought the new terms would be just that, new terms. I did not know that new terms would be wrapped up in a new AST. Obviously I don;t want that.

As for negotiating the landlord won't. I realise it may well be that I have made a mistake and the new date is not the date I thought it was therefore I am bound to stay until 18th Nov but I am not happy about it as I have bent over backwards and assisted the landlord with past repairs and recent sales process. IMO if he wants to exercise his rights then I should also exercise mine. He can't expect me to be as flexible and helpful if he won't.

Thanks

missb
27-08-2006, 16:00 PM
I've been thinking about my situation somewhat and just want to clarify a few things.

I thought a LL could only market their property to sell in the last 8 weeks of your tenancy, is this correct? I mean potentially we could be living in a house thats on the market for 12 months due to a high valuation and have to live like this with viewings etc and poor 'quiet enjoyment' for goodness knows how long. Is the LL supposed to give notice the property is going to be marketed for sale and how is that notice supposed to be issued to the tenant?

As you know we are periodical, no end to the tenancy expect the one I attempted to issue which is incorrect and now void so we are not in the end of any tenancy. We were advised verbally by the LL about 5 weeks before they started to market the property but have had nothing in writing.

Thanks

MrShed
27-08-2006, 16:04 PM
I've been thinking about my situation somewhat and just want to clarify a few things.

I thought a LL could only market their property to sell in the last 8 weeks of your tenancy, is this correct?

Nope, there is no time limit.

I mean potentially we could be living in a house thats on the market for 12 months due to a high valuation and have to live like this with viewings etc and poor 'quiet enjoyment' for goodness knows how long. Is the LL supposed to give notice the property is going to be marketed for sale and how is that notice supposed to be issued to the tenant?

No there is no such notice. But you do not have to provide access for viewings, although it is advisable to do so.

As you know we are periodical, no end to the tenancy expect the one I attempted to issue which is incorrect and now void so we are not in the end of any tenancy. We were advised verbally by the LL about 5 weeks before they started to market the property but have had nothing in writing.

Thanks

Hope this helps.

missb
27-08-2006, 16:13 PM
Is this because we are periodical? I thought is on an AST you could only market in month 4 of the AST hence 8 weeks notice required?

Thanks

MrShed
28-08-2006, 11:39 AM
No, there is no restriction upon marketing a property whilst it is rented out.