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chaos
26-08-2006, 00:15 AM
I was hoping to rent for the first time with my partner as i am commencing university in september away from home. We filled out all forms and notified them the guarentor form was on its way in the post (as they recieved application forms first)
At the last minute, the estate agents informs us that they cannot rent to us as my partner as not secured a workplacement.
are they allowed to refuse us the apartment on account that my partner will not be employed for a short time as we are moving from home even though we have a willing guarantor?
we will be most grateful to anyone that can help.

Worldlife
26-08-2006, 04:21 AM
Could you be more specific about the alleged lies?

Did you provide the name and address of the proposed guarantor to the estate agent and was this followed up by the agent?

The landlord has the right to offer or refuse the tenancy based on the information provided in the application forms for tenant verification completed by the tenants or the guarantor.

Was that explained to you?

David Lawrenson
26-08-2006, 09:12 AM
You dont have a tenancy until the tenancy agreement is signed.
All the other checks, including guarantor checks are just part of a referencing process leading up to that point.
As the other contributor said, the agency should have explained the process.
That said, if they didn't explain the process there is really not much you can do about it as the agency does not have to explain the process of referencing - it's just poor business on thier part if they didn't!
You should though be able to seek clarification from the agent on the reasons why, if the application for the tenancy was rejected.
I hope you get it sorted in the end.
David Lawrenson
Topic Expert and auhtor of Successful Property Letting
www.letting focus.com

David Lawrenson
26-08-2006, 09:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You dont have a tenancy until the tenancy agreement is signed.
All the other checks, including guarantor checks are just part of a referencing process leading up to that point.
As the other contributor said, the agency should have explained the process.
That said, if they didn't explain the process there is really not much you can do about it as the agency does not have to explain the process of referencing - it's just poor business on thier part if they didn't!
You should though be able to seek clarification from the agent on the reasons why, if the application for the tenancy was rejected.
I hope you get it sorted in the end.
David Lawrenson
Topic Expert and author of Successful Property Letting
www.lettingfocus.com

Worldlife
26-08-2006, 09:34 AM
David... my main query here is that chaos, in the title of this thread ,accused the agent of lying.

There was nothing in the original post to substantiate that allegation and chaos has not posted a follow up on my enquiry.

We know that estate agents can sometimes be economical with the truth or provide an over enthusiastic view of a situation but it is only a few unscupulous agents that would actually be guilty of lying.

Smear titles like this are denegrating good hardworking, albeit expensive, estate agents :D

IMHO the title of the thread should be moderated.

chaos
26-08-2006, 11:16 AM
Bad choice of thread title- my apologies.

basically we had filled out the application form, there is nothing wrong with it, we do not smoke, do not intend on housing pets, which they had recieved. we then noted to them that the guarantor form was on its way, due to my partners parents being on holiday, as we felt what was most important is that they hold the aprartment for us.
we then had a phone call from the estate agents teling us they could not hold the apartment due to the fact my partner has not found employment in that area( we are moving from one end of the country to the other). we asked if that was what the guarantor form was for, as we planed for parents to pay the first month whilst we settle down and he finds employment. They replied that they would not accept us even though we have a guarentor.

if that is not what a guarantor form is for, what isit for?
also are estate agents allowed to this? even though our track record is clean, and have a willing guarantor, just being my partner will not be starting work on the day we move in?
i am a student so will therefore be relying on my loan which they had nothing to say about.

thank you so much for your help

chaos
26-08-2006, 11:25 AM
i have attempted to remove the title myself, i apologise for any offense caused to anyone, and understand most estate angencies customer care services are at the highest level, its just this is the second place we have been rejected out of. the first apartment we had pens ready to sign the agreements and someone came rushing out explaining to us we had to be over 21, something which they must have overlooked many times, as our date of birth is plastered on all the application forms.
the second is refusing to hold the property just yet as my partner has not found employment, even though we have the money through saving up and guarentors.

My case of what seems to be bad luck has taken a toll on us and formed a bad image of what estate agents are like in my head. again, apologies to all concerned.

Tassotti
26-08-2006, 11:39 AM
Hi Chaos,

When a guarator is required, it usually means that the tenants cannot afford the place. In your case, I am sure that you can and work will be found. However, if I have two prospective tenants lined up, one who passes all checks and one who needs a guarantor, who do you think I will choose?

Maybe unfair, but just LL protecting investment.

chaos
26-08-2006, 11:48 AM
thank you for your help. we have been informed (luckily) that no one has viewed the place since we have been interested in it. its also not that we dont have the money, they have seen my student loan and they should know i can cover rental money for both of us alone, but they are requiring my partner to have a placement for work on the first day of our tenancy, for us to be able to rent which is mightly difficult since we live so far away!

i just found it completly absurd that regardles of how much money we have, they require my partner to be in employment.

Jennifer_M
26-08-2006, 12:31 PM
Chaos, at the end of the day a landlord or agent can refuse to let a property to you even if you're the best tenant on the planet (he'd be foolish but he can).
Someone landlord require that you're in full time employment as this more or less "guarantees" that you will have a monthly income.
You having a student loan doesn't guarantee this: you could spend it all on a car tomorrow and then not pay your landlord.
It's all based on "IFs" but landlords prefer to cover their backs and you can't blame them.

Worldlife
26-08-2006, 15:17 PM
@chaos.

As you have a lump sum available I am wondering if you could offer to pay the rent for more than the usual one month in advance.

If I were the landlolrd or agent in this case you might be able to twist my arm with a good guarantor and more rent in advance - especially as you apologised about the lying :)

There is a problem in letting to under 25's in so far as if they become unemployed and need Housing Benefit they do not get the market rate for a small flat. All they will get is a room allowance which will be only a small part of the market rent.

chaos
26-08-2006, 16:34 PM
thank you all for your help, i understand that landlords would much prefer renting to the older generation on the assumption that they can provide rent more efficiantly. my partner has interviews lined up and hopefully the apartment is not taken by anyone else before we give the estate agents everything they asked for, which after that they still may chose to refuse us......
i just still cant believe this kind of discrimination is at all allowed

Ruth Less
26-08-2006, 23:17 PM
Someone landlord require that you're in full time employment as this more or less "guarantees" that you will have a monthly income.

Not really, you can be made redundant, these figures are rising now. Also you may be an agency worker with very few rights if they make you redundant.


You having a student loan doesn't guarantee this: you could spend it all on a car tomorrow and then not pay your landlord.

I'm amused when this point is made, as if tenants can't handle their savings, as I said they could just as easily lose their job as blow their savings. Besides I expect there are employed tenants that still don't pay their rent.

chaos, If you have the cash but not the employment track record then you could try offering to pay some months rent up front. I do this when starting a new tenancy as I've erratic income and no employer references (my own business) but I do have a wad of cash (that I'm not about to blow). You should see the agent's little eyes light up when you offer it.

SteveP
27-08-2006, 00:35 AM
I think there are potential difficulties for landlords accepting large deposits, I seem to recall that if a deposit of greater than 1/6 of the annual rent is paid then the tenant can aquire the right to assign and sublet. Something to do within the Landlord & Tenant Act 1927 I think (sorry, its a long time since I studied this stuff).

I have to admit that I am far from up to date with assured shorthold tenancies mind you. No doubt Paul will know and comment.

MrShed
27-08-2006, 00:40 AM
I could be wrong Steve, but I think that is only for deposits, not for advance rent.

SteveP
27-08-2006, 00:49 AM
i just still cant believe this kind of discrimination is at all allowed

I can't see how you are being unfairly discriminated against. If you drive you will pay more insurance than me...you are a greater risk...and some insurers may not insure you at all.

Landlords weigh up the risks and benefits of letting to individuals, that is what being in business is about.

Why should anyone have to let a property to you?

If you have something of value are you fussy about who you entrust it to? If so you are discriminating too. If not you are a fool.

SteveP
27-08-2006, 00:56 AM
I could be wrong Steve, but I think that is only for deposits, not for advance rent.

Oh I could be wrong too! But I think the statute states that a payment in excess of 1/6 of the annual rent is a fine or premium and whilst you can call it "advance rent" it is still a fine or premium.

As I say, I could be utterly wrong. I so rarely have any dealings with AST's, haven't studied them for years, don't visit here as much as I used to and then concentrate on the bits I do know about, that the odds are very much against me getting it right. :)

pippay
27-08-2006, 03:47 AM
I'll second that one !!! Anyone would think they've just won the lottery when you offer this !! ;)


You should see the agent's little eyes light up when you offer it.

Worldlife
27-08-2006, 05:39 AM
<snip>
If I were the landlolrd or agent in this case you might be able to twist my arm with a good guarantor and more rent in advance <snip>


<snip>chaos, If you have the cash but not the employment track record then you could try offering to pay some months rent up front. I do this when starting a new tenancy as I've erratic income and no employer references (my own business) but I do have a wad of cash (that I'm not about to blow). You should see the agent's little eyes light up when you offer it.

There seems some confusion on our advice to take more than the usual one month (or perhaps six weeks) rent in advance.

It is illegal to take more than two months rent as a deposit.

It is not illegal to take advance rental payments.

It is clear that these two monies are very different. The deposit is kept by the landlord at cannot be released until certain terms are met. The advance rent must be used by the landlord in settlement of the monthly rent as it becomes due.

Maybe there is a legal term to describe these different funds?

From Landlord-Law (http://www.landlordlaw.co.uk/page.ihtml?id=248&step=2&page=mem)

AST for a whole property, monthly rent where you can say in the agreement how you want it paid
This agreement will be particulary useful for student lets where the landlord often wants the rent to be paid in advance at the start of the academic terms. The 'default' text provides for all the rent to be paid in advance for the fixed term, but you can change this. Be sure and read the notes before doing so though.

pippay
27-08-2006, 07:58 AM
You are right Mr Shed, that is only for deposits .. you can, and are willingly allowed, to pay as much advance rental as you wish !! I wonder why :D
I could be wrong Steve, but I think that is only for deposits, not for advance rent.

chaos
28-08-2006, 21:49 PM
I can't see how you are being unfairly discriminated against. If you drive you will pay more insurance than me...you are a greater risk...and some insurers may not insure you at all.

Why should anyone have to let a property to you?

If you have something of value are you fussy about who you entrust it to? If so you are discriminating too. If not you are a fool.

i understand where you are coming from, however am i right in saying landlords have the choice to let their property to whomever they want? i believe my estate agent did not confirm with the landlord before rejecting the hold on the property for us, maybe they can do that i dont know, but there is nothing wrong with us.
I feel there are two types of discrimination. Healthy discrimination would be in that my car insurance would be higher than yours, as it is proved young drivers are faced with accidents more than the older, mature drivers. Unhealthy discrimination is being discriminated against for an invalid reason, for example not being in employment on the first day we plan to move in, when as said before, employment can not guarentee rent being paid as much as a student loan can.

i have learnt so much from reading all the contributions from this thread, and i plan to ask the estate agents to make it clear exactly what they want from us in order for us to have the property, or if they are trying to find excuse after excuse in order for us to leave it, i am also very, very keen on seeing their attitudes change when offering to pay rent in advance. do you reckon 6 months is enough or too much/too little?

Jennifer_M
29-08-2006, 09:44 AM
Not really, you can be made redundant, these figures are rising now. Also you may be an agency worker with very few rights if they make you redundant.

Yeah that's why I said "more or less guaranteed". The fact is someone in full time employment will receive a monthly payment that should be enough to cover the rent and other costs (if you checked your tenant thouroughly you'd know if he can afford your rent or not). Obviously it's not 100% fool proof but a student won't have the regular income and if you need to sue for the rent you'd have to go to the guarantor and all the complications attached.


I'm amused when this point is made, as if tenants can't handle their savings, as I said they could just as easily lose their job as blow their savings. Besides I expect there are employed tenants that still don't pay their rent.
Indeed but again an employed tenant will have small amounts coming in every month. Having some money on a bank account is no proof of earnings and can be spent even before moving in.
A 100% proof would be 6 months rent paid upfront which if the tenant has the money in the bank shouldn't be a problem.

Jennifer_M
29-08-2006, 09:49 AM
do you reckon 6 months is enough or too much/too little?

If you have a 6 months AST then offer 6 months. You're best to judge what you are willing to pay for this property and it also depends on what the agent is asking for.

You are right in asking the agent if there's anything that would convince the landlord to take you on as you don't want to waste any more time on this property if they've made their minds up.

chaos
30-08-2006, 18:48 PM
I finally rang the estate agents back and spoke to another lady who mentioned to me a 6 months rental money would do the trick, so i told the oringinal lady who was dealing with my application (she never mentioned to me this was possible, last time she told me there was absolutley no way round to getting the property unless my partner was in emplyment) anyway, we're happy paying 6 months rent in advance, which then can give us time to settle down and find jobs, however a friend of mine is questioning the quality of the estate agent i am with, and asking me to consider looking for others. the problems never end!

Jennifer_M
31-08-2006, 09:04 AM
You may have problems with agents who aren't very professional but it depends on what they've been paid to do.

An agent used for introduction only will have nothing to do with you in future once you have moved in, they won't manage the property and you will be dealing with the landlord directly. This can be good to avoid delays in repairs and misunderstandings but it can be bad if your landlord turns out to be very unreasonable and you need a middle man to help.

An agent used for managing the property will be the one you talk to when you need repairs etc. In these cases a good agent is a blessing.

That said, if anything goes wrong you can't go against the agent as they have no contract with you. Any problem would be between you and the landlord.

David Lawrenson
02-09-2006, 14:02 PM
I do symathise with the guys trying to let.
One issue that might be a problem for the agent / landlord is this....
Some landlords use rent guarantee insurance to pay out for a limited time if the tenant does not pay his rent.
In order to get rent guarantee insurance the tenant has to score very highly on a credit reference form. If one of you is not working, then you would get a lower score, usually - depending on how the scoring system works... and it might be that the existence of a guarantor would make no difference to that score.
I would say, that for nearly all the tenants I have had, the credit score that they got would have barred them from being covered under the rent guarantee insurance scheme - but as their score was acceptable to me, I took them on and never had a problem from any of them.
That said, if the agent referenced the guarantor and scored the guarantor, then it should mean you application is OK.
Whether the rent guarantee insurers would accept that (i.e a ref from a guarantor) I dont know... and of course, they wont tell you that they are using a rent guarantee insurer, because it could effect the behavior of the tenant.
In summary, most letting agents are good guys and should be open and honest with you as they can, but they are somewhat tied as to what they can say to you as their client is the landlord.
If it was me I'd check out the guarantor and if he came out OK on a credit score, then I would have no probs letting to a tenant in your circumstances.
Good luck with it. Interesting question!
David Lawrenson Topic Expert www.lettingfocus.com