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View Full Version : Old tenant won't permit new applicants to view



rainbowcuddles
22-08-2006, 09:40 AM
Heres the thing:

Tenant moved in March, paid up until June. Because of constant problems with the tenant we decided to give him section 21. This expires 7th September. I have advertised his flat for rental and have had loads of calls but cant get in touch with the tenant. We lost contact with him in June... Weve got incorrect mobile numbers and he avoids all letters.

What do I do with all the "new tenants" calling... They want to view but cant.. Can I give him notice saying in 3days time a viewing will take place at 4pm for example? And just hope the place is in good condition! His also now 2months in arrears.

What happens if he doesnt move out September 7th? How long will it take to get him out?

Help required for this unruly tenant!!

MrShed
22-08-2006, 09:55 AM
Basically if he refuses access, not a lot you can do. Do you have a key? If you put notice in writing to him 48 hours in advance then he must explicitly refuse the access. So if he does not contact you, you can enter the property.

rainbowcuddles
22-08-2006, 09:59 AM
Yes we do have a key, so if I give him notice we can enter the property with a "future tenant". Although probably not advisable because the tenant may be there.. Doesnt look good us walking through the door and the tenant is sitting on his settee!

I cant believe how tenants get it so good!!!

justaboutsane
22-08-2006, 10:34 AM
I would get the propety off the market... this could drag on for a few months! In the case where possession is being obtained via court (as this will be the only way to regains possession) we do not even advertise the property until the tenant is gone and we have looked at the state of the property. It does not look very professional if you walk in with a prospective tenant and the place is a tip!

My recommendation would be to not even advertise until you have possession and you have assessed the state of the property!

rainbowcuddles
22-08-2006, 12:43 PM
I wasn't even thinking of court !!!

I hope it doesn't go that far!!

I will have to read up on other threads about the procedure.. Im a court virgin :D

Tassotti
22-08-2006, 13:46 PM
If you put notice in writing to him 48 hours in advance then he must explicitly refuse the access. So if he does not contact you, you can enter the property.

Is this the case? I thought the LL needed actual permission from the tenant.

MrWoof
22-08-2006, 14:07 PM
You can NOT legally enter a tenanted property without the tenant's explicit permission except in an emergency and/or to carry out essential repairs. Even then, you must if at all possible give at least 24 hours notice that you or your agent will enter. If your tenancy agreement states that the tenant must allow viewings, sorry, that's not enforceable in law and the penalties for entering without permission are severe.
This may seem that it is all in the tenant's favour but remember, it is the tenant's home, how would you like anyone to barge in to your home at any time? The law protects good tenants from bad landlords and does allow good landlords to get rid of bad tenants, it is a compromise but not a bad one.

rainbowcuddles
22-08-2006, 15:06 PM
You are allowed in the property with 48hours written notice to the tenant. Im sure this is correct!

P.Pilcher
22-08-2006, 15:33 PM
As Mr Woof correctly stated, a landlord is not permitted to enter a tenanted property as it is their HOME except in an emergency. Any clause empowering this in a tenancy agreement is null and void whether notice of any period is stated or not. Tenants would be unwise not to be reasonably cooperative with landlords if they want a reference to help secure their next tenancy or if they want repairs/maintenance to be carried out, but they have a legal right to refuse any access for any purpose if they wish.

P.P.

pms
22-08-2006, 15:52 PM
What happens if he doesnt move out September 7th? How long will it take to get him out?



If he doesn't move out by September 7th then I'll doubt if your remove him before January 7th 2007 and thats by going through the courts.Typical time in London at the moment 4months and if he put's in a defence proberly another 2 months on top of that.

MrWoof
22-08-2006, 20:50 PM
If he doesn't move out by September 7th then I'll doubt if your remove him before January 7th 2007 and thats by going through the courts.Typical time in London at the moment 4months and if he put's in a defence proberly another 2 months on top of that.Time taken varies up and down the country, in my area, courts give a date to be out around four weeks from the application date and bailiffs another four weeks. There is no defence against a properly served S21 but the tenant can ask the court for extra time, this has happened to me once and the judge denied the application.

pms
22-08-2006, 21:07 PM
Time taken varies up and down the country, in my area, courts give a date to be out around four weeks from the application date and bailiffs another four weeks. There is no defence against a properly served S21 but the tenant can ask the court for extra time, this has happened to me once and the judge denied the application.

Thanks Mr Woof for pointing that out.I should have put in my reply provided that the S21 is correctly served then he would have no defence.

ALIEN1X
22-08-2006, 21:39 PM
Hello,

The bottom line is, the law will never protect good landlords. It can take min 6 months from day of non payment of rent to evict a tenant. This can happen again and again.During this period your property is being trashed or burnt.My family have been through all of this, and tenant walks free.

I feel sorry for all Landlords who go through this, when will the law change or at leat be fair.

I work for a organisation who has tenants in 3k to 10k of unpaid rent,and courts dont do a thing.

Best thing be a tenant, you get everything for free....lol

MrShed
22-08-2006, 21:44 PM
You can NOT legally enter a tenanted property without the tenant's explicit permission except in an emergency and/or to carry out essential repairs.

This has been discussed at length before, and was judged to require explicit refusal of 48 hours written notice of entry. Do you have a link to legislation? Or would a more seasoned member care to give their tuppence worth? I'm fairly sure I'm right...but would welcome correction!

pms
22-08-2006, 22:14 PM
This has been discussed at length before, and was judged to require explicit refusal of 48 hours written notice of entry. Do you have a link to legislation? Or would a more seasoned member care to give their tuppence worth? I'm fairly sure I'm right...but would welcome correction!

You are correct Mr Shed.The only legalation I think of is under S11 L&T(1985) where the Landlord can enter the property by giving 24hours notice to carry out emergency repairs.

rainbowcuddles
23-08-2006, 07:50 AM
So you have to give 48hours written notice to enter the property for repairs/maintenance and can go into the property but if they say they dont want you entering the property then you cant!

Is that it?

Poppy
23-08-2006, 09:02 AM
Forget 48 hours notice or 24 hours written or not or whatever.

It has to be emergency repairs to enter a property without a tenant's permission.

Even landlords trying to comply with gas safety regulations cannot enter because it is not an emergency. Permission must be obtained from the tenant.

Can we now put this discussion to bed please. It has been discussed sooooo many times. You aren't going to get a different answer.

Jeesh!

MrShed
23-08-2006, 16:34 PM
Poppy....it has been discussed so many times. And on more than one occasion the conclusion has been that with 48 hours written notice, the tenant must EXPLICITY refuse access. Within 48 hours, the landlord must get explicit permission. The reasoning behind this I believe is that 48 hours notice without reply was deemed to be permission granted. Several senior members if I recall agreed with this. However, I await case law/legislation saying otherwise!

MrWoof
23-08-2006, 17:25 PM
I haven't been on this forum for a while, last time I followed it regularly, people who know what they are talking about said no entry without permission except in an emergency. When did this change and who are the senior members who state otherwise? I'd like to see what they have to say.

PaulF
23-08-2006, 17:58 PM
There's a lot of thrashing about here!


Why hasn't somebody suggested serving a S.8 Ground 8 Notice some time ago? It would probably be much quicker.
If the landlord feels the property has been abandoned then it is possible to pin a Notice to the door (and put another through the letterbox at the same time) to the effect that if the tenant fails to contact the landlord within say, 7 days, then the landlord will enter the property in order to check for repairs (this is quite legal). Make sure there is a contact number on the Notice and that it is rainproof such as laminated just in case the tenant comes back and says "No".
If the landlord enters after the aforesaid time (but must not remove or disturb anything) he could look for possible evidence of abandonment (such as an accumulation of post). Remember a tenant is required to occupy the premises otherwise how do you know if it is being looked after, and I would think any judge might take into consideration any such evidence if the tenant returns after a few weeks away? (He probably won't if he owes such an amount).
I know I have often posted that only a court order would constitute lawful re-entry but how long does a landlord have to wait if he hasn't had rent for 2 months, and the property is unoccupied? Providing a landlord had taken reasonbale steps to get the tenant to contact him then I think that is good evidence. I'm not saying it's foolproof because it ain't!
If the gas and electricity meters are accessible from outside then any evidence of non-usage can be monitored; nothing being used over a couple of weeks would indicate to me that the tenant may have gone.
What do neighbours know?

lawstudent
23-08-2006, 18:45 PM
This is the first balanced, intelligent, plausible post I can remember from Paul-f. What on earth is he on? I want some :o

pms
23-08-2006, 19:43 PM
This is the first balanced, intelligent, plausible post I can remember from Paul-f. What on earth is he on? I want some :o

It must be effuluxion of time not sure if that is Class A,B or C

pippay
23-08-2006, 21:31 PM
Paul, you are obviously talking about abandonment here .. but what about in cases where, for example, the tenant has been hospitalised for several weeks/months and is unable to contact the LL, deal with their finances or indeed anyone because of said illness? .. trust me on this one, it is an entirely possible scenario.

In such circumstances the utility meters meters would barely have moved, there would be an accumulation of post and the neighbours may not know the tenants personally to be able to give any insight ?

I'm just wondering what a judge would make of that situation, if the tenant came back home, only to find they've been evicted whilst they've been in hospital ....



There's a lot of thrashing about here!


Why hasn't somebody suggested serving a S.8 Ground 8 Notice some time ago? It would probably be much quicker.
If the landlord feels the property has been abandoned then it is possible to pin a Notice to the door (and put another through the letterbox at the same time) to the effect that if the tenant fails to contact the landlord within say, 7 days, then the landlord will enter the property in order to check for repairs (this is quite legal). Make sure there is a contact number on the Notice and that it is rainproof such as laminated just in case the tenant comes back and says "No".
If the landlord enters after the aforesaid time (but must not remove or disturb anything) he could look for possible evidence of abandonment (such as an accumulation of post). Remember a tenant is required to occupy the premises otherwise how do you know if it is being looked after, and I would think any judge might take into consideration any such evidence if the tenant returns after a few weeks away? (He probably won't if he owes such an amount).
I know I have often posted that only a court order would constitute lawful re-entry but how long does a landlord have to wait if he hasn't had rent for 2 months, and the property is unoccupied? Providing a landlord had taken reasonbale steps to get the tenant to contact him then I think that is good evidence. I'm not saying it's foolproof because it ain't!
If the gas and electricity meters are accessible from outside then any evidence of non-usage can be monitored; nothing being used over a couple of weeks would indicate to me that the tenant may have gone.
What do neighbours know?

pms
23-08-2006, 23:46 PM
Paul, you are obviously talking about abandonment here .. but what about in cases where, for example, the tenant has been hospitalised for several weeks/months and is unable to contact the LL, deal with their finances or indeed anyone because of said illness? .. trust me on this one, it is an entirely possible scenario.

In such circumstances the utility meters meters would barely have moved, there would be an accumulation of post and the neighbours may not know the tenants personally to be able to give any insight ?

I'm just wondering what a judge would make of that situation, if the tenant came back home, only to find they've been evicted whilst they've been in hospital ....

It could be down to Paul F's effluxion of time which lawstudent is trying to get a fix for.Know any dealers:D

Worldlife
23-08-2006, 23:58 PM
Cor the tenant may even be on a three week Club 30 holiday :D

He (or she) would not be pleased if the landlord took repossession!!!!

pms
24-08-2006, 00:13 AM
Paul, you are obviously talking about abandonment here .. but what about in cases where, for example, the tenant has been hospitalised for several weeks/months and is unable to contact the LL, deal with their finances or indeed anyone because of said illness? .. trust me on this one, it is an entirely possible scenario.

In such circumstances the utility meters meters would barely have moved, there would be an accumulation of post and the neighbours may not know the tenants personally to be able to give any insight ?

I'm just wondering what a judge would make of that situation, if the tenant came back home, only to find they've been evicted whilst they've been in hospital ....

That is a good point.The judge may see it as an illigal eviction where the damages could be astronomical.

rainbowcuddles
24-08-2006, 07:55 AM
The tenant is still at the property for sure! He dropped his keys in the lobby and another tenant brought them to me. I left a note for him to contact me and sure enough he came to me to collect the keys! I wasn't in but a friend handed them over to him. Apparently he was quite embarassed. But so he should be! Wish I was there to speak to him!

I didnt issue section 8 because he wasn't over 2months in arrears at the time. And although he is being a noisy tenant I didnt think Id get enough evidence to evict him. I didnt want to end up with the court costs if he wins.

I stuck to my section 21 which I am positive was served correctly with reference to my contract.However from other posts I know it could have been done better! (If only I found thi site two months ago!) Although he never responded to the section 21. I would have thought he would call and say what the hell is this about? But he never??

MrWoof
24-08-2006, 18:41 PM
He might be thinking that he can say he never received the S21. Doesn't matter, the law requires that the S21 be served correctly, not that the tenant reads it.