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kayak
27-09-2010, 09:53 AM
Morning,

Could someone explain exactly what this is, and what implications it has on both parties?

Also, what Act covers the 'ins and outs' of this?

Thanks.

John

westminster
27-09-2010, 11:28 AM
Sorry, I've never heard of it.

What is the situation that lead to your question?

Roy_Solomon
27-09-2010, 12:21 PM
For what ever reason, they don't accept that they owe all/some of the money and may seek to reclaim it at a later date.

For example car goes into garage you don't agree with their final bill, they won't release your car until you pay, so to get your car back you pay under protest to record that you dispute the amount/debt.



Probably¬

kayak
27-09-2010, 12:27 PM
Roy,

That was pretty much the extent of what I could gather!

Westminster,

The line is 'On the advice of The Consumer Civil Rights section of Trading Standards at the council I am informing xxx that the tenants are paying under protest.'

I'm more used to Acts etc and I couldnt find anything to actually reference this against, or to define exactly what this meant.

John

theartfullodger
27-09-2010, 12:50 PM
Roy,

That was pretty much the extent of what I could gather!

Westminster,

The line is 'On the advice of The Consumer Civil Rights section of Trading Standards at the council I am informing xxx that the tenants are paying under protest.'

I'm more used to Acts etc and I couldnt find anything to actually reference this against, or to define exactly what this meant.

John


Well I'd say options are...
a) T has misunderstoof what Trading Standards told them: In all cases, ask for copy of letter from TS and/or 'phone TS to ask what the issue is...
b) There's a disrepair issue....
c) You've not given them an address in Engerland&wales to serve notices (so the rent ain't due..)
d) Sumfink else...

I'd guess (b)....

What did they reply to your polite & calm letter inquiring what the issue was??

Cheers!

Artful

PS I thought it was either "Consumer rights" or "civil rights" but not wot-U-rote....

kayak
27-09-2010, 14:55 PM
Artful,

You are correct. It is B.

Anyway, I have dropped Trading Standards an email to enquire what it means exactly.

Letter only arrived this morning, so my polite calm letter hasn't left yet, but we do know what it's about. Funnily enough the letter started with a thank you for the help so far.

If I receive a clear reply I will update this thread for future info.

Cheers,

John

theartfullodger
27-09-2010, 16:23 PM
Weird, trading standards: Environmental health is more to be expected... Do post further updates & best of luck!!!

(I take it they've not bothered previously to notify their esteemed landlord of any disrepair issues??)

kayak
27-09-2010, 16:28 PM
I don't want to appear to criticise actions of the tenants/their parents but it would be fair to say that the complaint has escalated to trading standards extremely quickly.

Environmental Health/PDS are involved but only through additional HMO licensing.

I'm just more intriegued than anything else on what it means. Surely, if this sentence isn't included with payment of rent it would remove the right a tenant had from a rent rebate, otherwise I would suggest it would be prudent for every tenant to pay 'under protest'.

I will update :)

westminster
27-09-2010, 19:14 PM
I'm just more intrigued than anything else on what it means.

I doubt it means very much. If this dispute ended up in court, you would have no difficulty establishing that T is liable for rent under the contract, regardless of T 'paying under protest'.

While T might, in turn, establish that LL is liable to pay T £x compensation for the disrepair, this wouldn't per se remove T's liability to pay LL £y in rent.


I don't want to appear to criticise actions of the tenants/their parents but it would be fair to say that the complaint has escalated to trading standards extremely quickly.
Sounds like a case of over-'enthusiastic' parents dragging every authority they can think of into the situation, and Trading Standards (probably unfamiliar with such a complaint, and the nature of T's liability for rent and s.11 LTA1985) responding as though this were an everyday consumer dispute; e.g. consumer pays £y for goods/services, supplier fails to provide said goods/services as per contract.

I suppose there's an argument there, but it doesn't take into account the fact that the consumer is still enjoying 100% exclusive possession of the allegedly faulty goods, and is legally obliged to pay for the goods, and the fact that the supplier in this case is legally entitled to a reasonable period in which to repair the goods.

theartfullodger
27-09-2010, 19:37 PM
Perhaps little Johnny has said he's told the landlord 17 times about the xxxxx and so mum (sorry, I suspect mum..) has decided to whinge to Trading standards... as LL obviously ain't listening. LL has never even heard of the problem...

Yup, silly me, wrong on all counts, I 'umbly apologise...

kayak
01-10-2010, 06:37 AM
As promised, spoken to Trading Standards, who were polite but not overly useful I must say. As not to appear to criticise, I do find Private Sector Housing at the council useful although occassionally rather lost (I may post some example of additional licensing requirement - HMO at some point).

The gentleman on the phone explained that it would allow the tenants to hold the letter up in court and if there had been a continual breach of contract to request termination or a rent rebate. He did seem rather surprised that the issues had only just been brought to light and it couldn't be considered an on-going breach on contract, even if it could be considered that the owner was failing in their duties imposed upon them by law.

I did ask what act covered 'paying under protest' where he explained it was common law not legislation, and that legislation evolved from common law. That I don't disagree with per se (although have little knowledge to agree or disagree) but it did appear rather vague.

In short, my personal conclusion is that it appears to mean nothing, holds no weight because both the landlord and tenants are contractually obliged to follow their obligations as laid out in the AST and through various acts. If the tenants are entitled to a rent rebate then I believe they could request one irrespective of if they 'paid under protest' or not.

I think Westminster's point regarding the supplier having a reasonable length of time to repair the goods is an excellent one, which is exactly what an EHO would do if they visited a property which they felt needed improvement.

John

dominic
01-10-2010, 10:21 AM
All "paying under protest" means is that the payor is reserving their rights, that is, such payment should not be deemed to be an admission that the money was actually due.