Will we be considered as residents?

[Johnr12]

Hello all,

Further to a previous message I posted here some months ago, I have now applied for a licence, which is currently being processed. A council inspection has been set up for next week, and, barring any problems the licence will be issued soon.

However, a situation which I mentioned before may now possibly occur, and if it does, I am wondering if my licence will still be neccessary.

I own and (live in) a three storey property with my wife and four tenants, hence the need for the licence. However, now that I have almost completed all the work that was required on the property, my wife and I are finding that we are spending an increasing amount of our time at my nearby family home, and spend perhaps half of our time away from the licensable property we own.

What I would like to know is at what point are my wife and I considered to be residents in the licensable property? Are we considered to be living there if the electoral roll shows us as living there, or are we considered as living there if we spend a certain proportion of the week living in the property, or if we have personal possessions in the property for example? My wife and I obviously maintain a bedroom in both the licensable property and my family home, but if it got to the point where we only spent one or two nights a week in the licensable property, do we have to declare ourselves as living there for the purposes of the licence?

The electoral roll shows us as living at the licensable property, as this has been our main residence for the past two years. If we were to change this at some point in the future to show that our main residence is my family home, is this sufficient to avoid possible investigation from a suspicious council? My wife and I would like to keep the option of being able to spend nights in either property due to our personal and family circumstances.

Not being officially resident at the licensable property may prove useful to us if for any reason a problem arises with our licence application, or one of my current tenants wishes to move his partner in to his double room, thereby pushing us up to 7 people, which may be above the maximum number of people permitted in the property. Clearly, I cannot give him the go-ahead for this if the council considers my wife and I to be resident also.

Many thanks, John.

[MrShed]

The council quite simply takes where you are living as your address. That sounds obvious, but it is not based *purely* upon things like the electoral roll. If they have reason to look into it further, then they will probably say if you are spending more than 50% of your time at another property you own, that will be the property you are living at.

As a side issue, what is the situation with the property you are currently in? I ask only because I am curious as to why they are tenants and not lodgers.

[Johnr12]

Hello,

Appreciate your insight there, thank you.

Tenant / lodger - to be honest I was not aware that there was an appreciable difference where the council are concerned for HMO matters. Do the council not regard either status as simply another seperate household once there are more than two lodgers present? In which case, as far as the HMO application is concerned, I didn't think it made a difference.

I have always considered a lodger to be a tenant who happens to live in the same house as the landlord (in the most simple terms), although I am sure you can clarify this for me if I am mistaken, which is entirely possible.

I have tended to use the two terms interchangeably, so any confusion is doubtless due to my mistaken terminology. But yes, my friends are indeed lodgers. It seems a genuine shame that there is no provision to argue the case that we are a single household despite our lack of a family tie, as we have all been friends for many years and have lived as a single household, in various locations for at least half that time. The fact that we cannot be considered as a single household based on either the strength of a signed declaration or via some other means of gaging the degree of unity within a house is frustrating, although I can understand the neccessity of one rule for everyone, due to the volume of applications and potential for cheating the system.

Am I correct in saying that before the law changed, it was possible for a group of friends to declare themselves as a single household? I'm certain I read of at least one case several years ago where it was upheld in court that a group's co-existence constituted a single household for the purposes of a council action against them.

What I find particularly odd about HMO licencing, is that if I do not charge rent, then I do not need a licence. How does the financial situation between me and my lodgers have any bearing on how well I will be maintaining the property, or the general level of safety in the property? There would still be six individuals in the house, experiencing the exact same living conditions. Should the fact that they would then, in effect be simply my live-in guests, mean that the law does not protect them as it would if they were paying me £250 each month?


Cheers, John.

[red40]

Hello,

Am I correct in saying that before the law changed, it was possible for a group of friends to declare themselves as a single household? I'm certain I read of at least one case several years ago where it was upheld in court that a group's co-existence constituted a single household for the purposes of a council action against them.



Yes that is correct, the case was Sheffield vs Barnes.

Hence the complex and detailed (presumably) description of what constitutes a household in the new Act.

The residential landlord raised quite a few questions with the DCLG and unfortunately not to many answers. The last information I heard was being suggested that a resident landlord and his family be classed as one household and one person only, regardless of how many persons actually were in the landlords family.:confused:

I am still waiting for clear guidance on the resident landlord issue.

[red40]

What I find particularly odd about HMO licencing, is that if I do not charge rent, then I do not need a licence. How does the financial situation between me and my lodgers have any bearing on how well I will be maintaining the property, or the general level of safety in the property? There would still be six individuals in the house, experiencing the exact same living conditions. Should the fact that they would then, in effect be simply my live-in guests, mean that the law does not protect them as it would if they were paying me £250 each month?


Cheers, John.

Yes the law would protect them by the local authority using the Housing Health and Safety Rating System which applies to any dwelling.

[Johnr12]

Ah... that hadn't occured to me! Thanks Red.

The thing that niggles me the most about this household definition issue, is that it seems to use as its foundation some 'ideal' and unclear concept of how a husband and wife (or equivalent relationship) should be.

For example, I pulled the following vague guideline from a council page. I believe similar wording can be found on most government and council pages relating to HMO:


"Couples married to each other or living together as husband and wife (or in an equivalent relationship in the case of persons of the same sex)".

(equals one household).

Ok, so how exactly do two individuals live together as husband and wife? Surely that is entirely up to the two adult individuals themselves! Some couples spend lots of time together, some do not. Some share meals together, others do not. Some share a bedroom, while others sleep in seperate rooms. These variables all apply to co-habiting friends as well. I can alay your fears and confirm that we do not all share one bedroom! :) However, Our group dynamic within the house is no different to countless family households in all other respects.

Hopefully this doesn't sound like a rant, (although it probably is in part), however the point I am trying to make is that the group behaviour and social interaction that occurs between me and my lodgers (housemates!) is a damn sight more vibrant and family orientated than a great many related family units out there. Why then should we be automatically treated differently and be given no opportunity to contest this?

Clearly, not all situations are the same in shared houses. While I would like to think that my particular situation is near one end of the spectrum, at the other end, there are shared houses whose occupants are perhaps a group of students thrown together through whatever circumstances, who have no particular sense of camaraderie or care for one another. By placing this type of living arrangement in the same legal bracket as the living arrangement that my housemates and I enjoy certainly feels like a ridiculous, unfair and grossly simplified categorisation.

Surely some sort of secondary means of determining HMO status could be implemented where the household(s) in question feel strongly enough that they should not be classified as an HMO? For example:

* A group of friends have been registered as living together in the same house for x amount of time (two / three years perhaps?)

* A signed declaration from all individuals that they coexist as a single household, (with supporting statements from each individual perhaps?)

* The presence of a resident landlord who could then sign a declaration that he will maintain the house in a manner befitting that of a single household home? (ensuring the quality and accessibility of the communal living areas, ensuring that external locks are not fitted to bedroom doors, etc.)

* Some form of council-monitored questionaire or interview process (similar to a green-card type interview) where individuals are given the opportunity to express their commitment to their household and convince the interviewer that they are indeed part of a single household.

These are all off the top of my head. No doubt they all have their shortcomings. Certainly, such proceedures would complicate matters no end, and create controversial grey areas, but probably to no greater extent than countless other laws and legal processes. I live in a family home; my friends live with me as if they were my own family. Unfortunately we do not get to prove this.

I hope that there is at least some validity in my viewpoint, and that it doesn't just come across as bitterness from someone who has had to pay £231 for a licence (plus god knows how much else on top of that) for a house that was already immaculately maintained, very fire safe and fitted with all neccessary amenities...

Cheers, John.