Solar panels- has anyone considered installing them?

[Conflicted]

Hi,

I've seen a few posts on here, but just starting at the most basic question:

Has anyone done this for their personal property or rental properties
Does anyone plan on doing it?
If yes, why? If no, why not?

I'm, seriously considering it for my own home and for investment properties and just want to see what others think.

Thanks!

[jeffrey]

I remember reading recently that HMG Grants might be available, if you've a large-enough area of south-facing roof.

[Ericthelobster]

For an investment property it makes absolutely no sense from a business point of view: it's fiendishly expensive to install, and since it's tenants who would benefit from the (hopefully) reduced energy bills, there is no direct payback for the landlord.

The only possible financial benefit might be increased 'lettability' of the house, but in the real world the technology would probably scare off as many prospective tenants as it would attract.

And in my experience, average tenants don't give a monkeys about the energy efficiency of properties when they look round. They might appreciate the financial benefits of a gas boiler over plug-in electric heaters, but that's about it - I've never come across one who's even interested in whether the boiler is a modern condensing (ie much more economical) model, or how thick the roof insulation is (before or after EPCs came in...)

[mind the gap]

I agree with Eric that it probably isn't worth it - yet - as far as an investment in a rental property goes. Even in your own home, they would take about 20 years to pay for themselves in terms of energy produced/saved. Ground source heat pumps are much more interesting!

I disagree about the energy efficiency of a property being unimportant to tenants. I predict that it will become increasingly more important as the price of electricity and gas continues to rise...but factor in a time lag to allow for the natural tendency of tenants and LLs to remain in denial about these things :)

If you are a LL and you have a property with an EER of above 65%, make the most of it - use it as a selling point - explain what it means to prospective Ts and how it will save them hundreds a year compared with a similar-sized property with a lower rating.

If you are a prospective T, ask to see the EPC and factor in the likely energy bills as part of the whole cost of the letting. Unless the rent is absurdly cheap, reject any property with an EER of below 40% - the energy bills are likely to bankrupt you.

The above is not about saving the planet so much as saving money on energy bills and for LLs, making a property attractive to Ts.

[Conflicted]

Yes, you see, prospective tenants of mine always ask about the bills. So I think there could be a plus in it for me.

Paying 10k and then waiting 10 years to break even is a big ask of landlords (I'm not sure why they keep talking about breaking even because that is not how I think about opportunity cost, but ho hum!) Who knows what they will be doing in 10 years, and unless the next buyer of the property gives a damn, it's wasted money.

But, with the government now stumping up for paying for the installation itself, could it make the property more attractive for free?

Looked up ground source.... Not for properties without a garden tho, eh?

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Ground-source-heat-pumps

[mind the gap]

Looked up ground source.... Not for properties without a garden tho, eh?

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Ground-source-heat-pumps

True. But then not every property has a south-facing roof surface suitable for solar panels, either!

[quarterday]

I have found that the "biggest bang for your buck" in terms of insulation etc is where one owns a non cavity wall ie solid wall property; which is to say pretty much anything built before the Second World War.

Cottages and Older style mansion block flats all suffer to a greater or lesser extent with condensation as the walls stay pretty cold and water vapour particularly from showers etc cause condensation to become a major problem. Insulating externally is not really an option and therefore insulating ahs to be from inside.

I dont work for the company nor have an interest in ownership so this isnt spam but have found flexible latex linings made by Sempertap very effective. There is one other similar product but it is more difficult to install; this one goes on like wallpaper, but is 10mm thick and insulates the cold wall so as vapour no longer condenses thereon.

If any members of this forum come across other workable internal insulants please do post as these are the type of dwellings that are by far the hardest to heat and where coldness is the principal cause of tenant dis-satisfaction.

The external systems are no use at all where the premises are part of a block or where the external appearance may not be changed for aesthetic reasons.

[mind the gap]

quarterday - approximately how much does it cost per square metre, to buy? And is a special glue required? (Cost?)

Cheers!

[quarterday]

You have to put some anti fungal jollup on the wall first then it goes on like wallpaper. They recommend using their own glues and mastics, the latter of which are of the non silicone type.

Each roll is 1m x 12.5 m and we are now paying just over a hundred quid, so I suppose thats approx £10 psm; by the time you've paid someone to prepare,fit and redecorate afterwards your up at least £15 psm. But the government have very thoughtfully encouraged us kindly landlords to upgrade insulation with tax relief of up to £1500 spent per dwelling on energy saving measures, a scheme which our accountants hadnt ever heard of called "Landlords Energy Saving Allowance". It will probably get scrapped before too long so ought to be made full use of while available. I have found that where installed there are no longer mould spots to be found in the usual places. close to bedroom windows, in/near bathrooms. We have by arrangement, occasionally put it into rooms of let residential flats during the letting and tenants say they are absolutely delighted with the results. It is particularly effective when the walls are solid brickwork that is apt to stay cold on the internal face.
I'd like to know where Sempatap get it made so as to buy the product less their mark up but have failed to find out!!We have put in quite a lot of this material and would say that it has been a success.

[islandgirl]

I read in the Guardian last week that companies will do it for nothing (if your house fits certain criteria - south facing, large roof etc) but that you have to sign a contract that they get the feed-in tariff payments for about 25 years...you get the benefit of the generated power, they get the "excess". Has anyone done this?

[westminster]

I looked into it when I moved into my current flat around 5 years ago; I've got a perfect roof for it and I was feeling flush at the time, but even so the figures didn't make sense - expense just not worth the pay off.

[westminster]

I dont work for the company nor have an interest in ownership so this isnt spam but have found flexible latex linings made by Sempertap very effective. There is one other similar product but it is more difficult to install; this one goes on like wallpaper, but is 10mm thick and insulates the cold wall so as vapour no longer condenses thereon.

If any members of this forum come across other workable internal insulants please do post as these are the type of dwellings that are by far the hardest to heat and where coldness is the principal cause of tenant dis-satisfaction.


I've just posted a thread on this subject, then saw your post. Is Semptertap more effective/cheaper than insulating plasterboard? I mean in terms, not of condensation, but heat insulation. TBH, I find the idea of putting a latex-based product on old masonry not very appealing.

[charliem]

I have a double garage that has no power. EDF Electricity have quoted me £1800 to dig up the road to connect a mains supply and I'll have to pay £500 to install a meter and connect to the EDf supply. Total £2300 installation.

I was thinking about putting a solar charging system in instead. Two panels on the roof, three marine batteries, inverter, and an LED lighting system. It'll provide evening lighting, enough power for the occasional power tool and will be free to use, apart from replacing the batteries every ten years.

I'd be interested in discovering if anybody else has done this. Typically these types of solar charging systems are used on boats and mobile homes.

Charlie

[Ericthelobster]

I was thinking about putting a solar charging system in instead. Two panels on the roof, three marine batteries, inverter, and an LED lighting system. It'll provide evening lighting, enough power for the occasional power tool and will be free to use, apart from replacing the batteries every ten years.Do you even need that level of complexity? For just lighting, there are plenty of simple solar-powered lights available (ie trickle charge during the day, and light available at night). For 'the occasional power tool' - aren't rechargeable tools (ie you take them home to charge at the end of the day) de rigeur for most purposes these days?

[quarterday]

Go for it; although you might find it cheaper to use an ordinary car battery and a trickle charger with a small solar panel to top up, the latter is available from motorists' accessory shops......

[mind the gap]

A small annoying child with excess energy, required to pedal an exercise bike connected to a dynamo for two hours before bed, is an alternative solution.

[SMurray]

Renewable energy is the way forward. Every builder should be aware of passive solar renewable energy. This is where a home is designed in such a way that it collects the suns warmth. This is far from a modern idea as it has been used by the early Greeks and Romans years ago. Large glass windows or south facing conservatories can exploit large amounts of free energy which without being harnessed is a serious waste. If you create more energy than you need it can be sold to the National Grid. Makes perfect sence to me.

[mat6660]

:DMicrogeneration
For those social landlords choosing to install microgeneration technologies to their properties, either through CESP or alternative funding sources, there are now opportunities to generate additional funds through feed in tariffs. These tariffs give landlords the ability to not only receive payments for the electricity generated, but also to sell it back to the energy providers.

There are a number of microgeneration technologies available on the market, which can be easily adopted by social landlords including solar photovoltaic (PV) systems, solar thermal systems and micro-combined heat and power (micro-CHP). Solar thermal and PV systems are ideal for social landlords as they have access to large roof areas and can be installed by their repairs and maintenance provider, providing they have MSC accredited installers.

The most important consideration for any social landlord thinking of installing microgeneration products is to consider the condition of their stock to ensure they are fitting the most practical solution for their properties. If in doubt it is always worth seeking advice from a provider, who can advise on the available options.

I am that provider my company can show you the figures and prove that solar energy is worth looking.
into we can give you your potential earnings on any property via email without visiting the property

regards matt

[SMurray]

yes I heard you can get them free. Try phoning our own energy supplier and ask them. A friend of mine got some for free.

[mind the gap]

yes I heard you can get them free. Try phoning our own energy supplier and ask them. A friend of mine got some for free.

I understand it is technically a long term loan (installation can be expensive - typically £10 000 for photovoltaic panels), but the utility company guarantees to buy back the energy generated and supply you with free usage, which effectively, in the long term makes it free to you.

Solar panels are not the same thing, but may be available on a similar scheme from April when heating systems using energy from renewable sources become eligible. See:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/

[Brixtonia]

I have just installed a 4kW system on a rental block. It is connected to the landlord's supply so is a tax deductible expense. Government FIT + buyback from grid work out at 43p per kWhr tax free - both will go up. I anticipate that buyback will increase significantly with he advent of smart meters. Savings on communal area electricity costs will be quite small.

It's not going to be the greatest investment I ever made but it actually works out ok over time if compared to putting money in a savings account averaging 7%pa - even if you assume absolute capital value of zero after 10 years.

Some poor chap is going to have to abseil off the roof to run the mains cable next week (scaffold licence problems).

[Anne Drake]

I have a friend living in a country cottage where there are no mains supplies at all - not even water. He fixed solar panels to his roof some years ago. They are connected as you suggest and he and his wife live with electric lights, fridge/freezer, computer, etc all run off solar-powered batteries. I don't have technical details, but I hope that this helps. Try putting your question onto the Navitron site, perhaps.

[MrPhoton]

That would depend on whether the local government in the area that I am living in will provide subsidies or tax concessions for installing one.

[dominicr]

I have just installed a 4kW [solar] system on a rental block. It is connected to the landlord's supply so is a tax deductible expense. Government FIT + buyback from grid work out at 43p per kWhr tax free - both will go up. I anticipate that buyback will increase significantly with he advent of smart meters. Savings on communal area electricity costs will be quite small.

It's not going to be the greatest investment I ever made but it actually works out ok over time if compared to putting money in a savings account averaging 7%pa - even if you assume absolute capital value of zero after 10 years.

Some poor chap is going to have to abseil off the roof to run the mains cable next week (scaffold licence problems).

I would be interested to know how confident you are that the expense of installing solar panels will be tax-deductible? It is not covered under LESA and there seems a risk (to me) that HMRC would deem it to be a capital expense - even though it is feeding the landlord supply. It makes a very big difference to the viability of this type of project so as a fellow landlord I am really interested!

[dominicr]

... I dont work for the company nor have an interest in ownership so this isnt spam but have found flexible latex linings made by Sempertap very effective...

Could you let us know where you have found the best (value) source of Sempatap Thermal (which I guess is the product?) in UK and whether you have any other tips about its use?

[quarterday]

The best place to buy it is from the sole suppliers in UK, MGC Limited.

As we use a lot of this material I have tried, unsuccessfully to find other manufacturers/suppliers here and abroad but no viable product has come to light at a lesser cost.

[dominicr]

Thanks for the info!

[Brixtonia]

I would be interested to know how confident you are that the expense of installing solar panels will be tax-deductible? It is not covered under LESA and there seems a risk (to me) that HMRC would deem it to be a capital expense - even though it is feeding the landlord supply. It makes a very big difference to the viability of this type of project so as a fellow landlord I am really interested!

I can only really go by the advice from my accountant. I asked whether there is any opportunity to offset cost of a PV solar system attached to the communal areas against rental income? his response was:

"I have had the matter researched further and in answer to your question the answer is generally yes.

Capital allowances at the usual rates should be available to the extent that the system relates to communal areas (which is defined as stairs, lifts etc, but not communal living spaces, kitchens etc). The rate is 20% on a reducing balance basis, so it will take slightly longer than five years to write down."

Hope that helps.

FYI Between installation on 22 Feb and 3 May the panels have generated an income of about £5.29/day.

[mk1fan]

Just to add a piece of important info that people need to know before considering installing PV systems.

The largest system you can connect to a single phase mains supply is 4kW (roughly 28 sq m of panels). Which is a tad annoying if you have 50 plus square meters of South-East facing roof waiting to be refurbished!

Larger systems need to be connected to a three phase supply. Very few domestic installations are three phase. Large blocks of flats are likely to be three phase along with very large private dwellings.

[dominicr]

Originally posted by Brixtonia:

Capital allowances at the usual rates should be available to the extent that the system relates to communal areas (which is defined as stairs, lifts etc, but not communal living spaces, kitchens etc). The ...
Thanks that is very helpful - and makes good sense. The income seems pretty good, if this is the same over the year as a whole it would make over £1900, and is consistent with the figures produced by the Energy Saving Trust Calculator (http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Cashback-Calculator). If the system cost you say £12,000 then it seems very attractive.

Do you insure your panels? What happens if panels get damaged (whether by vandalism or otherwise) or stolen? Or maybe you are fortunate enough to have a location where this is very unlikely.

Do you need to factor in any maintenance or cleaning? I read that the panels have to be cleaned or their performance will degrade significantly. On a low roof this is easy but then low roofs are vulnerable; on a high roof cleaning could be a big and expensive exercise? I'm just looking for any 'gotchas'...

[Brixtonia]

Thanks that is very helpful - and makes good sense. The income seems pretty good, if this is the same over the year as a whole it would make over £1900, and is consistent with the figures produced by the Energy Saving Trust Calculator (http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Cashback-Calculator). If the system cost you say £12,000 then it seems very attractive.

I think it cost me about 17K - so about 13-14K after tax is taken into account. Should be quite a lot cheaper already. We have had unfeasibly good weather of late so I'll be interested to see how it pans out.


Do you insure your panels? What happens if panels get damaged (whether by vandalism or otherwise) or stolen? Or maybe you are fortunate enough to have a location where this is very unlikely.

They are 4 stories up so pretty unlikely to get nicked. I hadn't even considered insuring them separately - presumed they formed part of the fabric.


Do you need to factor in any maintenance or cleaning? I read that the panels have to be cleaned or their performance will degrade significantly. On a low roof this is easy but then low roofs are vulnerable; on a high roof cleaning could be a big and expensive exercise? I'm just looking for any 'gotchas'...

Easy access to my roof from the top flat. Need to be careful cleaners don't use any products - literally just water to clean them. Any residue or film from a polish etc can reduce performance.

[dominicr]

Thanks again for your responses.


I think it cost me about 17K - so about 13-14K after tax is taken into account. Should be quite a lot cheaper already. We have had unfeasibly good weather of late so I'll be interested to see how it pans out. They are 4 stories up so pretty unlikely to get nicked.

And I guess being 4 stories up added to the cost? A friend of mine is looking at 4kW installation and has been quoted under £12,000, but that is on a low roof.


I hadn't even considered insuring them separately - presumed they formed part of the fabric.

Sounds logical, and my insurance broker has just confirmed this, obviously subject to the overall insured value being sufficient to include the replacement cost of the panels.


Easy access to my roof from the top flat. Need to be careful cleaners don't use any products - literally just water to clean them. Any residue or film from a polish etc can reduce performance.

As long as your cleaners are happy all the way up there! I guess it only needs doing every year or so?

[Brixtonia]

A friend of mine is looking at 4kW installation and has been quoted under £12,000, but that is on a low roof.

I had limited space so opted for the most efficient panels (17.1% Sanyos) in order to get the most out of the area. Yinglis were quite a bit cheaper but I could not get the same output in the space available.

[mk1fan]

The panels I've seen have a 'self cleaning' finish. They need to be fixed at a pitch greater than 25 degrees for it to work.

[dominicr]

If this means they never have to be cleaned then it is perfect. What about the system/inverter, I read somewhere that this should be checked by an expert annually, which is going to knock the figures a bit? Is it needed and is it a requirement under the government rules?