Seizure of homes to pay for health care (National Health Swindle)

[Worldlife]

If you or a member of your family became seriously injured or ill this issue could affect their security and the financial future of the family. It could affect your situation as a landlord or tenant.

Once you have read the relevant information, and if you are in agreement, the quotation below could form the basis of an email to your Member of Parliament and or MEP. Maybe encourage others to take similar action.


I have seen or read the information about the BBC Panorama programmes about the continuing health care.

In particular I have studied “An Experts View” by Luke Clements, a Reader in Law at Cardiff Law School and a consultant solicitor with the London practice Scott-Moncrieff Harbour & Sinclair.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4763886.stm#flouting

I demand that the Government and Opposition Parties take immediate action to ensure that the unfair, immoral and illegal practice of forcing people to sell their homes for long term care is ended immediately.

I demand that the standards in England and Wales are the same as those in Scotland where people do not have to fund their own continuing health care.

Use this link to find your Member of Parliament and your Member of the European Parliament.

http://www.writetothem.com/

Whether you agree or disagree or don't care please complete this poll !

[pippay]

Vic .. until just over 2 years ago, this subject never even entered my mind.

I was fit & healthy and worked all my life, bringing up my two daughters single handed, and paid my taxes and dues. I never relied on benefits or social housing, buying my own property. I had a credit rating that was second to none.

Then I got ill - quite suddenly and very unexpectedly. After spending 80% of the last 2 years in hospital, I obviously couldn't work (I was self employed) and had to rely on benefits.

Result? I lost my credit rating (credit & mortgage insurances ran out); had to sell my home before it was repossessed and "gift" my daughter the realtively small equity proceeds (tax paid!). Hence I'm now in private rented accommodation.

If I had not done this and I needed residential care, everything I had worked for all my life - to provide a small something for my girls - would have been wiped out, regardless of owning my own property or not (they look at all your assets) My work and my objectives to provide for my family after my death would have meant nothing.

My advice to others is - it could be YOU tomorrow, so PLEASE contact your MP now !

[Jennifer_M]

Sorry but I haven't followed this so could someone tell me if I get this right: it is about people selling their assets to pay for the cost of their care long term?

[pippay]

basically yes .. but more to the point is that you're FORCED to liquidate your assets, by the Government, for this health provision, despite a Court ruling that it is illegal .. and my understanding is that your NOK can be forced to pay for it as well!

The limits as to what you're "allowed to keep" are extremely low .. i.e. if you own £250k in property or liquid assets you/your family will be allowed to keep about £20k of it. Good huh?!

A stealth tax on the frail, vulnerable and terminally ill?

Could be you or me, or our parents or anyone close to us ..

[Jennifer_M]

Right, sorry again but why are people forced to sell up? Is it so the sale of their assets pays for the care they receive?
If someone is "rich" enough to pay for their care, do they have to sell up?

[pms]

In my opinion it's a liberty and it is typical of this goverement and I can't see it getting any better.And what the opposition are proposing is even more ludercrious


http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1827314,00.html

[Ericthelobster]

why are people forced to sell up? Is it so the sale of their assets pays for the care they receive?Yup

If someone is "rich" enough to pay for their care, do they have to sell up?Nope. It's simply that for the majority of people who own their home, by far their greatest asset is the home itself There are plenty of ordinary folk who by the time they retire (having paid off their mortgage of course) own a property which, with house price inflation, is worth many hundreds of thousands; whereas they may have only managed to amass very small cash savings, so that's what the powers that be are after. Of course if you are a pensioner with, say a private income enough to be able to afford the bills, then that's fine by them.

[Ericthelobster]

Result? I lost my credit rating (credit & mortgage insurances ran out); had to sell my home before it was repossessed and "gift" my daughter the realtively small equity proceeds (tax paid!). Hence I'm now in private rented accommodation.

If I had not done this and I needed residential care, everything I had worked for all my life - to provide a small something for my girls - would have been wiped out, regardless of owning my own property or not (they look at all your assets) My work and my objectives to provide for my family after my death would have meant nothing. Hate to say it, Pippay, but I guess you know that avoiding having to lose your equity is not as simple as 'gifting' your property to a relative? If "They" decide you've made the gift with the aim of avoiding having your property sold from underneath you, "They" can still go after the money, if they are aware of it? I don't know whether there's like a statute of limitations on how long ago you have to have made the gift before it's "safe"?

[Jennifer_M]

Yup
Nope. It's simply that for the majority of people who own their home, by far their greatest asset is the home itself There are plenty of ordinary folk who by the time they retire (having paid off their mortgage of course) own a property which, with house price inflation, is worth many hundreds of thousands; whereas they may have only managed to amass very small cash savings, so that's what the powers that be are after. Of course if you are a pensioner with, say a private income enough to be able to afford the bills, then that's fine by them.

In that case I'm not sure whether it's unfair or not. I mean if someone needs care that isn't covered by the NHS, the money has to be found somewhere and the logical thing to do is selling something to pay for the care.
I don't agree that people should be forced to sell anything in particular but if say you are a 75 years old man living by yourself in a 4 bedroom house worth half a million pound you can certainly sell it, buy a 2 bedroom bungalow worth half that and live a "comfortable" life while receiving the care you need.

Or am I missing something? Is it that people want to simply have the choice whether they want to sell up or not?

[Ericthelobster]

There was a good program on TV recently about this. Basically if your treatment fits certain categories then you do not have to sell your assets to pay for it (eg it is covered by the NHS) There was a followup (I think) last night. Whilst I think the whole business is thoroughly reprehensible, I felt the program was extremely obviously biased. This will undoubtedly get me plenty of flak, but it needs saying.

Lots of middle-aged folk were interviewed about their situations, which basically all involved an an elderly parent with complete dementia, all requiring full time care. Wasn't it disgraceful, they chorussed, how their parents were being forced to sell their homes to fund their care?

Nobody pointed out that the old folk in question were sadly so far gone that they didn't recognise their own children, let alone remember if they had a home of their own; certainly they had no need for 'money' as such - what would they spend it on?

No, the point here was that all the middle-aged children were concerned about seeing their inheritance money going down the drain, pure and simple. I'm not saying that's still not a valid reason to be angry about it; just that it wasn't even mentioned.

And - let's get really controversial now! - why was nobody asked the question 'couldn't you look after your parent yourself?' (as many thousands of others do, all over the country).

At one point we were treated to the unedifying spectacle of a bloke getting his severely demented old Mum to sign a Power of Attorney to give him the right to handle her affairs, he was reading out the solicitors letter to her "you won't understand this, Mum but I have to read it to you" - all of which was totally illegal of course, since the lady would have had to be of sound mind for the document to be legal.

All in all - poor TV.

[justaboutsane]

Eric I am semi with you on this one!.. I feel that many of these people have spent their lives working their butts off to pay a mortgage to enjoy their retirement and be able to leave something for future generations.. however due to the number of people who do NOT work their Butts off and instead lie and claim benefits because "its there and its our right" the NHS and pensions etc have suffered (I am oversimplifying the situation!) People are now having to sell off the assets they worked so damn hard for.. whereas had they just rented and saved they would have the money to hand over for their care.

Where I am not quite with you is where you say people should take care of the elderly full stop!.. My aunt and uncle took his mum in when she had her second fall and her other son refused to take her back home. She had dementia and at first was not too bad. over the next two years she dramatically declined and as you say then did not know any of us. Where the problem came was when she started having halucinations, she would wander in the early hours of day and cause untold havoc. My aunt eventually had a seizure due to worry and lack of sleep and they began the traumatic decision making of putting her in a home. Before she got ill she made it very clear that she would not like to go to a home.. but by this time she was too far gone to know. She now sits happily in a chair in her winderful nursing home talking to her Dad who has been dead for about 40 years! .. caring for parents is a good thing.. but its not always possible for all!

[Worldlife]

Jennifer what you are missing completely here is that the National Health Service Act set out the concept of health care 'from cradle to grave' based on need and available free to all without means test.

Many of the elderly people who now need care went through the hardship and suffering of World War Two. To afford the houses they purchased both partners worked on relatively low pay and they did not have the luxuries of life today. Through their working life each of them paid income tax and National Insurance contributions intended to pay for the contract between them and the Government to provide a NHS that was the envy of the world.

It is definitely unlawful for the health authorities to lay a complicated smoke screen of assessments that do not comply with judgements determined by High Court.

My late grandmother lived in a Council property and the property was in a serious state of disrepair. She was in a queue (about a year long!) to be assessed by a therapist to determine what work should be carried out to make the two story property suitable having regard to her heart condition. We were dismayed that although she was registered as partially sighted Social Services did not have this on their records.

We immediately engaged our own private therapist who prepared a schedule of works. There was a happy ending insofar as all repairs and disability improvements were completed after reference to the Ombudsman and substantial compensation awarded.

My mother in law started to lose track of her affairs and my wife obtained power of attorney mainly for organising bank accounts and paying bills. As her income was insufficient to support her lifestyle her house was purchased by a family trust as a property occupied by her with lifetime tenancy rights. The purchase was arranged to give Mum a regular income from the proceeds rather than a capital sum.

Eventually Mum's condition deteriorated and she had to be admitted to residential care in an "Elderly Mentally Infirm" home. (This is a strange beast halfway between a Residential Care Home and a Nursing Home). Her condition was in no way stable and eventually she had to be transferred to a Nursing Home.

We could have easily lost the family home to Social Services to pay for the long term care. It had been my late father-in-law's objective and my late mother-in-laws objective that the assets they had worked so hard for would be passed to the children. The family would have been absolutely shattered if their dying wishes had been thwarted by illegal actions of either Social Services or the NHS.

What I would suggest is that anyone involved in illegal demands from NHS or Social Services for payment towards long term health care should immediately engage an independent consultant to provide a report based on the judgements given in my links and on the BBC website.

I wondering also where judgement is made against the relevant authority a supplementary claim for the distress and inconvenience to the patient or relatives could be made.

Well that's our experience of the care of the elderly in the United Kingdom.

Before using devious and illegal means to get money from distressed families who are long term residents of this Country perhaps we should look at areas where the Government is over generous or wasteful of money.

[Worldlife]

<snip>
At one point we were treated to the unedifying spectacle of a bloke getting his severely demented old Mum to sign a Power of Attorney to give him the right to handle her affairs, he was reading out the solicitors letter to her "you won't understand this, Mum but I have to read it to you" - all of which was totally illegal of course, since the lady would have had to be of sound mind for the document to be legal.<snip>
.

We don't know the full facts here Eric. If in fact there had been an Enduring Power of Attorney and because of Mum's deteriorating condition there had been need to Register that Enduring Power of Attorney then it would have been appropriate and if I recall correctly there is a legal obligation that the Mum be informed of the Registration (even if she does not understand)

So you could be completely wrong in suggesting this action was illegal.

The procedures to complete Registration of an Enduring Power of Attorney are stringent and designed to prevent abuse or misuse of the assets of an impaired person.

[Jennifer_M]

The sad reality is that the NHS can't pay for the care of all to the grave. It is sad for the people who endured WWII and thought they'd be looked after, it's also sad for today's hard working people (many couples both work nowadays) who on top of this face the possibility of not having a state pension they can survive on if any at all in future.

There is no way our government is going to cut down MPs wages and Tony Blair's retirement fund to divert the money back to "the people" so the only other solution they'd find is to raise taxes.

[Ericthelobster]

Where I am not quite with you is where you say people should take care of the elderly full stop! ...caring for parents is a good thing.. but its not always possible for all!Ok, but I didn't actually say that at all: I just said that in a balanced TV programme the question should have been asked. I'm not against the argument which the programme makers were pushing, just the rather poor way in which they did so.

(For what it's worth, I can tell you that my mother-in-law has severe Alzheimer's to the extent she no longer knows who my wife is; she lives in a local nursing home and for all sorts of reasons, no way it would be possible for my wife and me to provide her care directly).

[Worldlife]

Vic .. until just over 2 years ago, this subject never even entered my mind.

I was fit & healthy and worked all my life, bringing up my two daughters single handed, and paid my taxes and dues. I never relied on benefits or social housing, buying my own property. I had a credit rating that was second to none.

Then I got ill - quite suddenly and very unexpectedly. After spending 80% of the last 2 years in hospital, I obviously couldn't work (I was self employed) and had to rely on benefits.

Result? I lost my credit rating (credit & mortgage insurances ran out); had to sell my home before it was repossessed and "gift" my daughter the relatively small equity proceeds (tax paid!). Hence I'm now in private rented accommodation.

If I had not done this and I needed residential care, everything I had worked for all my life - to provide a small something for my girls - would have been wiped out, regardless of owning my own property or not (they look at all your assets) My work and my objectives to provide for my family after my death would have meant nothing.

My advice to others is - it could be YOU tomorrow, so PLEASE contact your MP now !

So sad to read this Pippay.

A reminder that these issues do not just affect the elderly.

How many of us could survive financially if hit by the terrible situation experienced by Pippay?

How many of us make provisions for (or perhaps could afford) Income Protection Insurance (http://www.privatehealth.co.uk/healthinsurance/income-protection-insurance/overview)

The problem I see arising is if the Income Protection Insurance did not cover the additional incidental expenses arising from the illness.

Any Benefits would obviously be affected by the amount income from the Income Protection Plan so I am wondering if the overall cost of dealing with long term disability would result in the need to sell the home in any case. i.e the cost of living for a disabled person is much, much more than a person who is not disabled.

[Worldlife]

Ok, but I didn't actually say that at all: I just said that in a balanced TV programme the question should have been asked. I'm not against the argument which the programme makers were pushing, just the rather poor way in which they did so.

(For what it's worth, I can tell you that my mother-in-law has severe Alzheimer's to the extent she no longer knows who my wife is; she lives in a local nursing home and for all sorts of reasons, no way it would be possible for my wife and me to provide her care directly).


I thought the programme was highly focussed on the illegality of the actions being taken by NHS. It showed individual cases in relation to the judicial decisions and the local assessments failing to comply with such judicial decisions.

The programme would have been confusing and there was not time to go into the differences between the care in the UK and care in the third world or the differences between state care and family care in different countries.

Agree with you Eric there is no way that a person with severe Alzheimer's can be provided with the safe 24/7 care they need within the family

[pippay]

Precisely my Point, Worldlife !! :)

The issues you raised in your post are not necessarily limited to the elderly - anyone of us could end up requiring full time residential/nursing care - whether by illness or injury - at any age.

I'm lucky - I'm not at that stage yet but there may be a time when I am and I fail to see why my hard earned money should be effectively taxed again because of my age or infirmity.

People need to be aware of this scandalous practice by the Government, while they are still well enough to be able to be able to do something about it! ..






A reminder that these issues do not just affect the elderly.

[Worldlife]

Indeed Pippay......

Was walking to a restaurant with a colleague to have a working lunch - really to celebrate hitting top sales for the month.

Took a short cut and a car raced away from the traffic lights. An older pattern fixed wing mirror clipped my friend and spun him to the ground. His head smashed against the kerb.

Blood from nose.... blood from ears. Neck or spinal injury - don't move. First Aid ABC. Will he choke if nothing is done?

Serious head injury - concussion. Life support. Permanent brain damage. End of career and personality change as well.

Fortunately, was physically able to care for himself and had the benefit of income protection insurance and his wife was able to continue working.

One's life and fortune could change in a flash

[pms]

I have just watched this programme and my own honest opinion is that I am appalled.How can this goverment even suggest that hard working people should give up there homes to pay for healthcare in their later lives.What have decent hardworking people been paying N.i and Tax for and I may add paying to have a roof over their heads.Or is it another way of this goverment to screw every single penny out of the people.This may be going off subject and people can take it whatever way they want to but when people from abroad who come here get treated like royalty, all benefits, council housing,RTB etc doesn't it mean we are all getting short changed.The reality is that that this and previous goverments have cocked up and it is going to be the people of today that are going to have to pick up the tab!!

Rant over:mad:

[Worldlife]

<snip>The sad reality is that the NHS can't pay for the care of all to the grave.<snip> .

Completely false. If the Government can no longer comply with the law then the law should be changed. Did you know that Latin roots of "surreptitious" mean "to seize or take away secretly" Up to now the actions of the Government and Health Authorities have been surreptious in implementation and also effect. Fortunately Panorama have exposed this injustices.

Explain how it is that Scotland can provide free NHS care for those that need continuous health care and Scotland can also provide free University Education.

Perhaps PMS has hinted at possible reasons in what he confesses is a rant :)

[pippay]

I totally agree with Worldlife, if things need to be changed, then Governments of any ilk should be up front about it and change the law accordingly not doing it surreptitiously - or should the word be illegally?

We are supposed to be living in a democracy where everyone is equal - except perhaps the elderly, weak or vulnerable. The people who don't have a voice unless we speak up for them.

And please don't get me started on what the NHS can or can't afford - having spent so much time in several hospitals in the last two years I've seen so much outrageous waste, mostly caused by bad management. And the true managers of the NHS is the Government itself. I can't even begin to imagine how much could be saved if only the NHS was run properly and then perhaps the cost of providing continuing care would not be an issue.

As for pms' rant :) I do hope he lets his MP know how he feels about this issue.

[pms]

IAs for pms' rant :) I do hope he lets his MP know how he feels about this issue.

I'm going one step further than writing to my M.P i'm going to deliver it to him personally at one of his constituants surgeries.

[pippay]

Well done ! :)

[Worldlife]

Perhaps PMS would let his MP know that on a recent survey [here! :) ] 82% of the people responding considered it unfair that people of any age should be forced to sell their homes to pay for continuing health care.

Suggest that there could be tactical voting on this issue that would upset the balance of power between those who just vote for a political party.

[Jennifer_M]

Completely false.

If you didn't cut half my message away you'd see that I meant that the NHS "can't afford it" because the money's spent on MPs wages, Tony Blair's retirement funds etc. in short it's spent on bureaucracy rather than "the people".
I might have expressed myself the wrong way.

I know there's something wrong in this country when we are paying about the same level of tax as in France but in France
- your state pension pays you a percentage of you last wage. My grand parents are getting around £1200 a month (I think...) on which they can live comfortably, they can afford the heating in winter and even go on holidays every so often
- your unemployment is a percentage of your last wage so if you earned £1000 a month for a few years, you'll get something like £750 unemployment which means losing your job doesn't necessarily mean losing your house, your car etc.
- hospitals are a hell of a lot cleaner than in the UK, to see a doctor you don't need an appointment, you pop in in the afternoon and wait for your turn (going through usually within 20 minutes) and you can actually register with a dentist. Doesn't cost you £50 for a filling either !

I'll stop there but the list goes on. Obviously all this above costs quite a bit of money and somehow they can do it?

[pippay]

Quite so, Jennifer .. and apparently (from what I've heard) their subsidised Health Service ( don't know if it's called that) works well .. the Government pay a set amount for, say a broken limb, and it's up to the patient where they choose to go - if it costs more, they pay the difference, if it costs less, they keep the difference!

It's almost worth popping over to France for a few days with your European
Health Insurance Card !! Now there's a thought ....

As for politicians, they're all the same - no difference between them IMHO.

[Worldlife]

Jennifer thanks for the clarification of your views.

To be honest I did not link your "cannot afford it" to the attack on politicians.

Even although their generous lifestyles funded by the taxpayer are outrageous these costs are a drop in the ocean compared with other waste.

For example how much has the invasion and reconstruction aid to Iraq cost this Country? How much of the reconstruction money was allocated to jobs that were not completed or fiddled by provision of inferior goods. What was the value of such ill gained profits lining the pockets of American and British contractors? Do you not think that ventures such as this have more effect on the budget juggling than a few expenses?

[pippay]

Not to mention the Dome !!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a complete waste of money THAT was. It would have been far better spent in the NHS.

[Jennifer_M]

Well Wordlife, I could only mention a few exemple in one post, if I started making a list I think I'd still be there in 5 years time ;)

Bureaucracy in general has a huge cost. When the government invests millions in the NHS and the next thing you know they're firing nurses by the thousands you wonder what the logic in that is. Until you remember that the manager of the manager of the manager of the manager in charge of buying printer ink awarded a nice big raise to himself.

I won't even mention the Iraq war. How is it that the UK/US took control of one of the biggest oil producer on the planet and the cost of fuel does nothing but go up??

@ Pippay, the french version of the NHS works well although it has a certain amount of debts (but I think they're working at it as it's never an exact science).
The way it works if you're french is that if you for exemple go to the doctor, you will pay a certain amount and then get a percentage back.
For things like dentist, glasses, hospital etc. everything has a set percentage paid by the health system and people (the ones who can afford it) get a "complementary insurance" that will pay for the difference or sometimes even more.
As for popping to France to see a doctor, I go see my old doctor everytime I travel there. I pay the 20 euros but I get a full check out, I'm not limited to 15 minutes and the doctor actually gives me advice on whatever I need. My doctor in the UK doesn't care and doesn't even seem to know !

[pms]

Bureaucracy in general has a huge cost. When the government invests millions in the NHS and the next thing you know they're firing nurses by the thousands you wonder what the logic in that is. Until you remember that the manager of the manager of the manager of the manager in charge of buying printer ink awarded a nice big raise to himself.

My view is that the Goverment and previous goverments over the last 40 years plus could have addressed this problem especally with the NHS.But that is only one area where the goverment could stop wasting resources, what about Local Goverment again the amount of money wasted is phnormenal.I would be intrested to know what the amount of money is wasted by Goverment and Goverment departments per year because that waste could be channelled into things like hospitals,care, housing etc.It's an insult to a person's intelligence when the goverment propose to sell your homes to pay for healthcare in later life.Are TB and GB going to do the same if in their later years if they need to go into a nursing home.I very much doubt it!!

[Jennifer_M]

I would be intrested to know what the amount of money is wasted by Goverment and Goverment departments per year because that waste could be channelled into things like hospitals,care, housing etc.

Well I know of one department that kitted their staff offices with plasma screens and 5.1 sound systems supposedly for work... As well as equipment for "training rooms" etc. About £100k worth in one go.
Schools will call 2 weeks before "year end" and say "I've got £xxx budget left for this year and I need to spend it. Can I have an invoice before the end of the month".

Admitedly it keeps businesses going and it's good for the economy but from a citizen's point of view it's outrageous.