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caveman38
04-03-2010, 11:43 AM
Could one (or more) of you pro’s guide me in the right direction.
I intend to buy an apartment beside the coast to use mainly at weekends.
I would like to offer it either on a Mon – Fri basis to an agency or just allow friends and family to use it o the odd occasion.
I realise that as I intend using it myself that I cannot get any of the tax perks. I am not looking to make a profit but just gain a little income to help with the rates and ground rent etc.
Apart from finding out from the freeholder whether this is allowed, what else should I be aware of – pitfalls the lot.
Or would it just be easier to only allow a few people an occasional use, say the odd week and weekend for a token rent. Would that still pose problems.
Please give me some advice / help, even if to say steer clear of letting occasionally because of know problems.
Thank you.

jeffrey
04-03-2010, 11:57 AM
See http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=26387, considering this very point.

JessicaJames
04-03-2010, 16:33 PM
I hope someone can help!

I am leaving my property vacant for one month and am considering letting it as a holiday let for this period. I am then going to let it long term when i leave the are later this year. I am wondering what legalities i have to consider - do normal letting terms apply - EPC etc;

jeffrey
04-03-2010, 16:38 PM
What is your status?
1. Do you own a house or a flat?
2. Is it freehold or leasehold?
3. Is it mortgaged or unmortgaged?
Or are you yourself merely a Housing Act 1988 tenant?

JessicaJames
04-03-2010, 16:42 PM
Hi there, i own the house and it is freehold, and yes it is mortgaged (unfortunately!) Hope this helps! I am wondering what sort of agreement i can use also - what sort of deposit do i take etc;

islandgirl
04-03-2010, 21:12 PM
For a month? It is not worth getting to grips with all the legalities, setting out terms and conditions, creating all the documentation etc. Take it from someone who runs a holiday let, it is not that simple to get it right....

JessicaJames
05-03-2010, 11:09 AM
Oh dear........!

Is there a site where i can look into it more? Just so as i can gather all the information before i write the idea off completely?

jeffrey
05-03-2010, 11:20 AM
Is there a site where i can look into it more? Just so as i can gather all the information before i write the idea off completely?
The only way forward would be for you to apply to the mortgagee for consent and pay its inordinate fees for the privilege. Then you'll realise why you've been advised not to sublet! It's too much hassle and expense for a mere month. Instead, why not consider seeking house-sitters in your area?

JessicaJames
05-03-2010, 12:06 PM
its really that bad?! What if i were to let it as a holiday let longer term? Can i get any info from a site etc?

jeffrey
05-03-2010, 12:54 PM
its really that bad?! What if i were to let it as a holiday let longer term? Can i get any info from a site etc?
Er, this website has given you advice. Take it or leave it.

JessicaJames
05-03-2010, 13:04 PM
I mean to look into what would be expected of me and what laws are around this - believe me once i chuck this at the other half he wont be so keen! Basically i am just looking at what requirements i would need to meet should i wish to do a holiday let

jeffrey
05-03-2010, 13:08 PM
What's expected of you is to comply with your obligations. The mortgage involves a contract. You need mortgagee's consent. That's where to start.

JessicaJames
05-03-2010, 13:14 PM
Brilliant - im sure they will charge me a fantastic fee for not a lot if i choose to proceed.

I presume i am then responsible for everything as though it was a normal let - EOC, Gas Cert etc; and the use of a holiday booking form! Is there a maximum length i can use a booking form for?

Mrs Mug
05-03-2010, 15:04 PM
Have you looked at the information provided on this forum as a start. Link below.

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/holiday_lets.htm

JessicaJames
05-03-2010, 15:53 PM
Thanks ever so much!

sundance
05-03-2010, 19:32 PM
I must tell you that the tax status changes for holiday let property 4/4/2010 holiday let property will be given the same status as an assured shorthold tennany which is not classified as a business.You will not get the tax advantages in long term holiday let property get at this moment which are favourable.I suggest you contact a good agent to find your holiday makers takes the hassle out of it, but you could find yourself in hot water if you don't notify your mortgage co of change.

sundance
05-03-2010, 20:04 PM
Beware you could be breach of your lease,you may have to get the freeholders permission assuming you are just a leaseholder.You must bear in mind that if you have communual access to your flats your neighbours may see this as a security risk them not knowing who is coming or going.

islandgirl
05-03-2010, 20:48 PM
I let a holiday property and don't use an agent - I don't think you need one if you are prepared to do quite a bit of work yourself (marketing, paperwork). If you can't do this then by all means use one - however you will give a lot of your profit to them!

sundance
06-03-2010, 12:16 PM
Holiday agents charge on average between 20% to 25% but do charge more than owners who handle the letting themselves this can compensate to a degree.If I was letting for less than 3 months I personaly would do it myself.But be sure you have gas electric certification in place & other legal requirements.

islandgirl
06-03-2010, 21:29 PM
and a good contract....

jeffrey
07-03-2010, 22:08 PM
Beware you could be breach of your lease,you may have to get the freeholders permission assuming you are just a leaseholder.You must bear in mind that if you have communual access to your flats your neighbours may see this as a security risk them not knowing who is coming or going.
This is precisely the point made in the other thread.

jeffrey
07-03-2010, 22:28 PM
All this hassle just to make a quick buck for as little as a month? Forget it- leave property vacant (but tell insurer!)

islandgirl
08-03-2010, 11:22 AM
I did say....

jeffrey
08-03-2010, 14:00 PM
I did say....
I know; but OP was insistent.

islandgirl
08-03-2010, 14:02 PM
True, true......

Deb20
24-03-2010, 13:25 PM
I wasn't sure where to put this question in the first place, so hope here is appropriate.

Last year I bought a leasehold property on a holiday park, for the purpose of letting it out for holiday rentals. At the time of completion, we negotiated and finally agreed on what I deemed to be a rental contract. The document was called rental terms with the address of the property on it. However it was not required to be signed and witnessed, which surprised us.

It set out what commissions were to be taken, who could make a booking into the property, cleaning fees, how repairs/replacements will be carried out, how and when the rental income will be paid - all these sorts of matters.

The managing company (who are the landlords as well as it is a leasehold property) have just changed all the commissions, the costs of cleaning etc and have told me that "Your Rental Agreement for 2009 is not a legally binding contract and *****(name of the company) are not obliged to continue this for 2010."

So the question is when is a legal document not a legal document and what redress if any do I have?

jeffrey
24-03-2010, 13:41 PM
It may be legally binding during a defined term but not thereafter.

Deb20
24-03-2010, 14:14 PM
Ok that sounds promising. There is no end date to it, so is that what you mean by defined term?

If so, do you have any suggestions of how to reply? I have had responses from the on site managers, but I am now about to escalate it to the director level.

jeffrey
24-03-2010, 14:24 PM
What does it say re start date and duration?

Deb20
24-03-2010, 14:27 PM
It is dated March 2009 and makes no mention of an end date. It mentions a cleaning charge that will be levied from 2010 and also that the secondary agents fees may vary in the future and will be transferred accordingly. That is an agreement between the on site managers and a third party tour operator to which I am not privy. Would I have any rights to see this as I only have their word for the changes?

jeffrey
24-03-2010, 14:33 PM
If it has no defined term, I guess that L can terminate it on Notice.

sundance
07-04-2010, 12:11 PM
Holiday homes are now "dwellings" under the Landlord & Tenant Act 1985 the High Court has ruled.The Lands Tribunal had ruled 2008 In King v Udlaw that holiday homes were not dwellings with in the meaning of the 1985 act and the Housing Act 1996. Deputy High Court Judge Griggs sitting 24/3/2010 as over ruled that decision in the Case Phillips & Goddard v Francis & Francis QBD Truro District Registry.Good news for holiday home owners?

jeffrey
07-04-2010, 15:43 PM
Well, what else would a holiday 'home' be, other than a dwelling (albeit non-permanent)?

sundance
07-04-2010, 17:42 PM
Thankyou Jeffrey only common sense of course, but Lands Tribunal did not see it that way.

Poppy35
22-06-2010, 19:03 PM
evening all!

I saw an existing client this evening as he has a ground floor flat coming back on the market.

He has his own house up for sale which which has 4 self contained flats in the building. Most people who are viewing the house to buy dont want the tenants and therefore would be lookign for vacant possession so therefore he does not want to tie himself into a 6 months AST and risk losing a potential sale of just over £750k.

One option I thought of would be holiday lets. Now I dont know too much about them so was wondering can they be for longer than 28 days? if you let to the same person for longer than the legal period does this change the type of tenancy they have?

Many thanks

oh he does not want holiday let prices either just the normal rent.

Bel
23-06-2010, 07:46 AM
Is it the sort of place you would take a holiday?

Will the flats be fully furnished?

The key will be , will the occupant have a home elsewhere?

Poppy35
23-06-2010, 18:13 PM
yes, its also run as b and b at the moment too.

T would have home elsewhere (selling it but has moved out)

property is fully furnished

Snorkerz
23-06-2010, 20:24 PM
T would have home elsewhere (selling it but has moved out)I think Bels point is that for a 'Holiday Let' the occupier (tenant-ish type person) - NOT the owner - needs to have a home elsewhere.

Poppy35
24-06-2010, 10:22 AM
that was my reply, the person who is interested in moving in also has house for sale but for certain reasons is not going to live there anymore.

Bel
24-06-2010, 16:26 PM
IMO:

You have probably read the other holiday let thread running at the moment regarding problems etc.

If the 'intended' tenant is not taking a holiday, then it probably wont be a 'holiday let'.

If tenant's home is elsewhere then it will be a contractual tenancy for any period of time agreed.

If T outstays welcome he has protection from eviction, but will not have 6 months minimum stay protection as per AST

Always Problems
31-07-2010, 08:19 AM
I notice that they are going to cut down on the Tax Advantages for renting out a holiday home. I am going to rent out my overseas house can I claim the 40p a mile travelling expences to go and meet the tenants/letting agent twice a year. its 700 miles one way + ferry costs.

Poolboy
01-08-2010, 21:18 PM
hi, how are the tax advs being reduced? the current govt have reinstated them, in full have they not?

I am not directly affected but live in Spain & claim back my travel costs to UK for a similar task. My accountant advised me to do so - he said how else are you going to get there, walk? I actually cycle but do claim my air & bus fares.

alex_bisgrove
03-08-2010, 20:56 PM
If you're inmterested in the future of FHL try reading The Government's latest FHL consultation paper, it has just been published (27-July)
www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/consult_holiday_lettings.htm
not to advertise any other site but I found this on http://www.laymyhat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12772 (a very good site for FHL)

didi123
25-08-2010, 08:28 AM
Having finally obtained a Possession Order and evicted my vile tenant I have finally been able to put my flat up for sale. Having lost a huge amount of rent, I need to try to cover some costs while the flat is on the market but after my horrible experience don't want leave anything to chance. I have a couple with good references interested in a holiday let. If I use a standard holiday let agreement for a 31 day let, do they have to leave at the end of this? If they wanted to stay another month, can I then do a subsequent 31 day holiday let? I am not so worried about the tax advantages as the legal position: I do not want to go through the nightmare of Section 21s all over again if they decide to stay put. What is the difference between a short let and a holiday let?

Lawcruncher
25-08-2010, 08:42 AM
"A tenancy the purpose of which is to confer on the tenant the right to occupy the dwelling-house for a holiday" is a holiday letting. It has to be for a genuine holiday. The circumstances you describe do not sound like a genuine holiday to me since, apart from anything else, you are contemplating the possibility of an extension. Even if you do let for a genuine holiday you still need a court order to get the occupants out if they refuse to go.

property mongrel
25-08-2010, 09:24 AM
There was a similar situation posted here recently where a person Let their "holiday let" premises to Tenants while the Tenants house was being refurbished after a claim through their insurance company after an incident.

The "holiday let" classification is subject to numerous qualifying criteria.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/pimmanual/pim4112.htm is your link to read up on.

You may go ahead with what you consider to be a "holiday let" and all may go well but if your tenants decide to stay, as they did in the previous case posted here, you may end up with all the problems the previous poster had. I will try to find the previous incident, and link to it.

I don't know how much you think you are losing each month, but you may wish to consider, what if the holiday people stay beyond their agreed term? Of course, all may go well, but if it does not, can you afford to deal with it?

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=29480&highlight=holiday - refers to a holiday let that went wrong.

pm

jeffrey
25-08-2010, 10:56 AM
did123: read your long-lease's covenants. Do they prohibit/restrict the grant of sublettings? Please state exact wording of clause!

Rosa Klebb
06-12-2010, 19:55 PM
We're hoping to buy a three bed, cottage-style property in a Bucks town. The close always rents well but we thought of trying it as a holiday/short-term/business let.

I've read the infor pack on Holiday Rentals.co.uk and the biggest headache seems to be furnishing and equipping the place.

Has anyone done this with a property? Does it really give better rewards? We've rented out another property before so aren't complete novices.

All advice and warnings welcome! Thanks, RK

cfaproperty
07-12-2010, 12:33 PM
Bear in mind the B2L lenders are not likely to help you if this is the use you intend to put the proposed property to, so you will probably need a commercial lender and of course robust figures to support their serviceability requirements

Rosa Klebb
08-12-2010, 08:07 AM
Thanks. Not sure why my post had the title BTL, this will be a cash purchase.

Have you done holiday lets yourself? Looking for info on pitfalls, rewards. things to watch for.



Bear in mind the B2L lenders are not likely to help you if this is the use you intend to put the proposed property to, so you will probably need a commercial lender and of course robust figures to support their serviceability requirements

cfaproperty
08-12-2010, 08:32 AM
In our capacity as brokers we have helped people buying property for holiday/corporate lets the approach is markedly different to the standard residential let market.

jeffrey
08-12-2010, 11:57 AM
Not sure why my post had the title BTL, this will be a cash purchase.
Eh? BTL does not necessarily involve any mortgage finance- just Buying To Let.

Rosa Klebb
09-12-2010, 08:33 AM
Oops, my mistake.

Links and documents on public consultation are useful.

Wondering how the minimum number of let days is affected if you can't actually let the property out for that minimum. Will do my sums and be back. Thanks.

osprey
09-12-2010, 20:19 PM
I have two adjacant terraced houses in a west wales seaside town,one is three bedroomed two baths and is holiday let and achieves 14k PA gross ,approx 10k net.
The other is four bedroom 2 bath and long term let and achieves 7k pa net
Both have been refurbished and are in good order. The 7k pa one is cheap for the market locally but has had the same occupants for 12 years who are nearly perfect tenants.
The holiday let one is commercially rated which is actually slightly cheaper than the council tax on the one next door! They were previously both in the same council tax band.
Holiday letting avoids tenant problems as they are only ever there for two weeks max' and if there was a serious problem then the agent will just move them to another property.
But you have to have it cleaned and keep it immaculate.
I probably spend the 3k difference on upgrading the holiday property each year!

property mongrel
10-12-2010, 04:47 AM
The consultation paper is interesting reading.

The supposed initial "remove all allowances" idea has been replaced with significant changes and new requirements to generate more tax and reduce the profitability of a business, which then has to be considered in isolation as far as profit and loss is concerned, if I read it correctly? Typical Government tactics in as much as they threaten to hit you with a huge hammer and then we are supposed to be appreciative of the fact that they only use a smaller hammer.

The main aim of the new rules seems to be ensuring second home owners who don't run a genuine "holiday letting" business are targeted?

Osprey, how would this affect your business? Your holiday let property would be regarded as a stand alone business and any profit from that could not be taken into account against losses from your other business, is that right?

And does anyone know what the special criteria are to allow a years qualifying trading to be taken over to the next 2 years to avoid a business qualifying one year and not the next?

The increase in availability for occupancy time from 140 days to 210 is not the main concern but the need to have a property occupied for 105 days a year instead of 70 would be harder in areas with limited seasonal appeal.

pm

Gordon999
10-12-2010, 12:37 PM
The thresholds for increasing letting availability to 210 days and minimum occupancy to 105 days commencies from April 2012.

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/consult_furnished_holiday_lettings_condoc_response s.pdf.pdf

TaxationPete
11-12-2010, 10:47 AM
Have a read here :
http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/topic/tax/changes-furnished-holiday-letting-regime/467139
Regards Peter

Gordon999
12-12-2010, 14:03 PM
The drive to raise threshhold to 210 days and 105 days comes from meeting to EU standards. But is this a good for UK ?

The holiday homes in southern Italy and other med countries enjoy longer sunshine days during the winter period and benefit from the no-frills airlines which take short break visitors from Northern Europe and from UK.

The holiday homes in UK are more reliant on the "school holiday breaks" and nobody comes to UK for the winter sunshine. So if forced to operate longer outside the school holiday periods with fewer guests in the low season, there is more chance of going bankrupt.

osprey
12-12-2010, 22:34 PM
I'm afraid I don't know the answer,I think the legislation wasn't aimed at genuine commercial landlords like me ,more at people with a holiday home of their own that they just let for a minimal number of weeks so that they can claim expenses on the property. As to losses,I'm fortunate that no part of any of my businesses have ever actually made a loss...................yet

Rosa Klebb
13-12-2010, 09:32 AM
Thanks - this was a very useful comparison. Are you including the £3K annual refurbishment in your nbet takings?

Thinking about being the manager myself as we're not in a popular tourist location and I haven't come across local agents who take this work on.

Do you advertise nationally/internationally with Holday Rentals or similar? Are they generally good people for the holiday let property?

osprey
13-12-2010, 17:23 PM
No I'm not including the £3k refurb cost each year.Gross is £14k net £10k then some years I might spend the difference in yields from the two similar houses (£3k) on the holiday let one,but that's a year with a big spend,some years its a fraction of that. When I bought the house I did a total refurb' completely gutted the inside,windows,garden,everything so for the first few years the maintainance was near zero,then each year I spend something on updating to keep up to the tourist board grade and customers general expectations,the full refurb was 12 years ago now so as an example last winter it was a new kitchen,this year I'll do one of the bathrooms,next year the other etc.Carpets we clean every winter or as required and replace every five years,bedding is replaced every other year.Furniture has mostly been replaced piece by piece on a rolling basis. But this property is 5 star so you can get away with a lot less. Its 100yds from the beach with off street parking for two cars. In Tenby.
It achieves in excess of 30 weeks a year.This year its empty at Christmas for the first time ever.
You can see it at www.franciscottage.com
This website is all done and run by the agent, every one of their landlords cottages has its own web address!
I think that they're probably the dearest agent locally but I find them the best.

osprey
13-12-2010, 17:25 PM
Last year downgraded to 4 star as the bedrooms aren't big enough for the quango that replaced the Welsh Tourist board,''Visit Wales'' I think they're called.
Incredible shrinking bedrooms!

Rosa Klebb
14-12-2010, 10:28 AM
Even more helpful. Would you say the holiday let is worth the time, effort and money you put in, pound for pound you earn? I know you've got good tenants in your other property so maybe not a fair comparison but all the same... Would you consider having your other property as a holiday let too when the tenants leave?

osprey
14-12-2010, 18:58 PM
Yes I'm in the process of doing another full refurb on a small bungalow which is opposite a lovely country pub and overlooks a mill pond.
One advantage to me is that my eldest daughter has a new baby and cleaning and looking after those two houses will be a useful part time income for her and an allowable expense for me.
Plus no chance of nightmare tenants.
Some landlords locally, holiday let in the summer and do a six month winter let out of season,but I've never bothered due to the extra wear and tear and the fact that we get quite a few bookings in low season anyway.
If the tenants left number one then I'd definately holiday let.
No chance of nightmare tenants that don't pay is the main reason.

property mongrel
15-12-2010, 00:07 AM
There was a thread on LLZ earlier this year about a "holiday let" where the T did not leave, and how to get them out. Have you ever experienced this problem, and if so how did you or would you deal with it?

pm

osprey
18-12-2010, 17:49 PM
Never heard of that one,what rights they have I've no idea. I assume that its unlikely on the basis that they have to pay at least a weeks rent in advance which is usually more for a week than for a month in a long term let. Plus the agent has their credit card details and in my case I own the car park to the rear of the property which is barrier controlled, so I can stop them using their car assuming they have one.
I would assume that because they have agreed a contract for only one week they become squatters in your home after that time and the police would remove them?
I shall ask the question elsewhere on the forum.

seema
07-01-2011, 20:18 PM
I am thinking of letting out a house. The rooms would be shared and let out to individuals under a holiday let. Each individual would have their own tenancy agreement. All the tenancy agreements would be holiday lets. I understand that under a holiday let each agreement has to run for not more than 31 days.

Is this possible? Would this property still count as a HMO?

Snorkerz
08-01-2011, 10:35 AM
It wouldn't count as a HMO but I believe the safety requirements for holiday lets are more strict than HMOs - if that's what you were thinking.

It is not only a case of the agreements having to last a crtain time - but the actual 'stay' is what is important - a guest could not stay for a year on 12 x holiday let agreements.

seema
09-01-2011, 02:06 AM
Is there any place where I can get more info about holiday lets?

Snorkerz
09-01-2011, 12:47 PM
This very site has some basic info http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/holiday_lets.htm

And this may also help http://www.homesandgardens.com/shopping/essential/The_Essential_Guide_to_Holiday_Lets_article_118478 .html

theartfullodger
11-01-2011, 09:02 AM
Seema: I'm sure you wouldn't be thinking of doing this so you don't have to issue ASTs etc... and that your tenants will all genuinely be on holiday... (odd to have so many happy campers all on holiday sharing rooms in a HMO but there you go..).

Coz, if the agreement should have been an AST then regardless of what any written agreement states it would be found to be an AST...

(Housing Act 1988 Section 1...)

1 Assured tenancies. E+W

(1)A tenancy under which a dwelling-house is let as a separate dwelling is for the purposes of this Act an assured tenancy if and so long as—

(a)the tenant or, as the case may be, each of the joint tenants is an individual; and

(b)the tenant or, as the case may be, at least one of the joint tenants occupies the dwelling-house as his only or principal home; and

(c)the tenancy is not one which, by virtue of subsection (2) or subsection (6) below, cannot be an assured tenancy.

Cheers!

Artful

seema
17-01-2011, 19:38 PM
All the tenants will be holiday makers or on working holidays usually in the UK for not more than 6 weeks.

theartfullodger
17-01-2011, 19:45 PM
And if, say, someone (? several? - or indeed their employer..) on a "working holiday" (what the h**l is one of those??) decides they don't want to leave after 6 weeks, goes to CaB / Shelter saying they plan to stay & the property is now their principal private residence... (having changed their minds & plans in week 5..) ... Dunno... I'd say there's a chance Judge might decide it was an AST ...

Interesting gamble if you take it....

Just read "Housing Act 1988" Schedule 1
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/schedule/1

Tenancies Which Cannot be Assured Tenancies

which contains this and not much else on the subject...



Holiday lettings

9.. A tenancy the purpose of which is to confer on the tenant the right to occupy the dwelling-house for a holiday.

Yup, I reckon you should be OK...

jeffrey
18-01-2011, 10:25 AM
Although para. 9 is rather sketchy, as you pointed-out, caselaw will exemplify what is/isn't a "holiday let".
I think that there may be pre-1988 Act decisions on the basis of similar wording in the Rent Act 1977.

theartfullodger
18-01-2011, 12:53 PM
case law - Indeed

see..

1978 Buchmann v May
Courts should be ‘astute to detect a sham’ but for tenant to establish this

&
1980 R v Rent Officer for Camden LBC ex p Plant
Holiday let agreement did not reflect reality of situation and tenancy protected

1979 McHale v Daneham
'Working holiday’ came within exception to security

Moderator1
18-01-2011, 14:39 PM
Several largely similar questions on separate threads have been merged into this thread (hence the repetitive nature of answers).