Boiler service- CP12 and Gas Safe Certificate

[premieji]

Hi again
Can anyone beat nPower insurance quote for landords gas central heating cover incl annual gas safety check of £17.67 per month?

[pete's properties]

there is one cheaper but i forget who they were! the npower one is the best according to one website i found...but i've also forgotten which site!

the only cover that i have never heard any praise for is british gas

:)

[jeffrey]

Try Home Serve (or is it Home Service?)
It charges about £30 per quarter.

[chocolatemalteser]

Hello
Does a new CP12 have to be done by law at each tenancy change even if one was done less than a year ago? We're having an argument about it in the orifice.

[jeffrey]

Hello
Does a new CP12 have to be done by law at each tenancy change even if one was done less than a year ago? We're having an argument about it in the orifice.
Please tell everyone what a CP12 is.

[red40]

No its doesn't, although you are required to provide the current certificate at the onset of the new tenancy.

You do have a duty of care though to ensure the installation is deemed safe before you let a new tenant occupy the property, how you achieve that is up to you.

This may also help settle your argument Regulation 36, paragraph 3 (http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/33-6.htm#reg36), while I mention a duty of care about I should also say that as well as the landlords gas safety check/record, you are also duty bound to provide ongoing maintenance, these are two entirely seperate issues.

[SellUpAndCallItQuits]

CP-12 is the gas safety certificate.

[mattoo]

Hello everyone.

I am just about to become a landlord for the first time and have been reading the forums and the site for some time now.

I came accross this offer and thought it was pretty good so thought others may like to benefit. I am in no way linked to npower....just a moneysaver and like a deal when I see one!

npower are offering a boiler service for £29.99 inc VAT or Boiler Service + 3 gas appliance certificates (CP12) for just £81.99 inc VAT.

Not bad....mine is booked!! Hope others benefit too. :)

Matthew

Link is http://www.npower.com/web/summerboilerservice/index.htm

You need to request the CP12's on the phone to get the special offer price.

[tubbs]

hi

the same company has done a CP12 on a particular property for 2 years running, however this year they have failed the flueless gas fire and disconnected it, claiming that the ventilation is inadequate. at the side of the old chimney breast is a floor vent, and then there are a cpl of those brick vents to the outside, the engineer calimed it needs a 'core vent' in the wall in the room, i just cant see every house suddenly needing to make a 10cm wide hole in the wall :confused: he even mentioned to the T that leaves could block the vent etc which seemed a bit stupid, after all couldnt a wall vent get blocked also.

i just find that strange considering that they have passed it for 2 years running, they claim new regulations, can anyone tell me if they've found the same or perhaps where i can view the rules an reg's/do's and dont's etc.

cheers

[Dave Lavelle]

The regulations for combustion air have not themselves changed, but the industry guidance via corgi on how to apply them changed from 2005, with a final change being effected in 2008. It seems you have been affected by this final change.
From your description it would seem it was classed as “at risk”
Some things to note;
You should have been told last year that it was going to be “at risk” next year.
A classification of “at risk” is not normally justification for requesting permission to disconnect an appliance.
If your wall vents are right down at ground level you could reasonably expect them to be covered from time to time with leaves or snow.

You describe the floor vent in a way that indicates it may be close to the fire. This is a worry. There was a death a couple of years ago from one of these, and the vent being too close too the fire was considered to have contributed towards this.
There is a safety device on these which is supposed to switch the fire off if the oxygen in the atmosphere in the room begins to become depleted. If you have a vent close by, it can cause this device not to work by keeping the air close to the sensor healthy.
The gas industry and manufacturer’s advice has now changed to include ensuring the vent is a not too close to the fire.
You also need to have these serviced every year, as the catalytic converter has a finite lifespan, after that it does not convert, and pumps out carbon monoxide. So a good quality carbon monoxide detector is also a must with these.

[tubbs]

i dont know what std the engineer was using, but certainly when it was installed it was to the instructions in the manual i now that much, i have a number for corgi an may call them for peace of mind.

dave..... the fire is situated on the chimney breast which is about say 4ft wide, then the vent is on the floor around the corner of the chimney breast if you know what i mean, and the fire is approx 3 ft above floor.

the words i believe he used to the 'T' were its 'really dangerous', they certainly didnt ask my permission to dissconnect it, i dont know if they can ask the 'T' permission, thats what annoyed me, and they didnt mention anything last year, but the office person mentioned is a phone call since that it was something about changes last year so that could be it.

just an unsightly air vent on the wall for no real reason is something i dont want for cost and also it being unsightly, onv if its necessary then thats different of course, maybe a lesson for next time..... dont install a flueless gas fire!

thanks for replys ppl :)

[Dave Lavelle]

At the time of the inspection the tenant would have been the "responsible person" and can give permission to disconnect.
These types of fires can only be fitted to rooms which already have heating, so do you really need to reconnect it? Their 100% efficiency takes a large dive when you add the large permanent hole in the wall (100cm2) required to run them, and the hole will be ventilating the room 24/7 whether you have the fire on or not.
Add to that the costs of maintaining them and they are not an attractive proposition in rented property, either for the tenant or landlord.
Does the tenant really want this reconnected?

[tubbs]

hi

have been trying to arrange to have this done but very difficult to contact T's, even seen them in public and we arragned for them to check their work rota and get back to me but after 3 weeks or so not been able to sort it and just cant get them on the phone.

now the CP12 has run out, as i've been trying to sort it am i ok legally? and what can i do to get it done? a letter maybe saying in 2 days i will let the gas engineer in myself etc?

small problem is am quite friendly with them so didnt really want to start sending letters etc, but of course i have to ahve this done asap.

as a similarity, i know in some contracts with regards to viewings it says you can let ppl in by giving the T a cpl of days notice, but sure i've read its not legal that you can do that, so would it be similar in this case, i.e. i cant let anybody itnto the property without T's permission.

thanks

[Poppy]

You should definitely have a record of letters to your tenant to show that you are trying your utmost to get a gas safety inspection done for the property.

Definitely do not enter the tenant's home without permission. This is not an emergency, although it is very important.

CYA = cover your @rse.

[silvercar]

According to my (reliable) registered plumber my boiler is not going to pass a gas certificate under new regulations on ventilation.

Its an old back boiler with fire at the front. Works well, but vents through the chimney. Plumber says this can't be made to comply with regs.

Problem fitting a new boiler as the gas pipe comes into the front of the terraced property and lounge and tiny hall at the front with nowhere for a boiler to go. (Also no drainage at the front). So gas pipe will need to go up the front of the house and through the roof to fit into the kitchen or airing cupboard.

Anyone verify this?

[P.Pilcher]

The only way forward IMHO is to discuss this with a "Corgi" registered engineer (inverted commas because they aren't Corgi registered any more) It may be possible to install sufficient additional ventillation in the window.

P.P.

[jeffrey]

The only way forward IMHO is to discuss this with a "Corgi" registered engineer (inverted commas because they aren't Corgi registered any more) It may be possible to install sufficient additional ventillation in the window.

P.P.
"Gas Safe" is the new industry catchphrase/body.

[jeffrey]

Not if you look at the CORGI website - no mention that they are no longer the industry registration body!
Just shows how unreliable websites are (except LandlordZONE, obviously).

[johnboy]

Get another plumber to look at it. I have had 2 plumbers look at the same property one failed it and the other gave it a gas cert. Worrying really.

[Dave Lavelle]

For many years the combustion air ventilation requirements for open flued boilers were largely ignored. In many cases this was because the ventilation requirements were brought in after the appliances were fitted, and there was no retrospective application of the requirements.
After studying mortality rates and their causes, it was decided to make these ventilation requirements retrospective. This was phased in from 2005 to 2008 to give people a chance to upgrade their ventilation.
As these requirements are prescriptive rather than subjective, you should not experience different “opinions” on this from gas engineers, but they are not all perfect!
Without knowing more detail of the boiler and its installation, it is not possible to say exactly how much combustion air ventilation you need, but 100cm2 is common for back boiler and fire combinations. This can usually be achieved by a wall vent, or a vent in the window (or window frame). In some circumstances you could also have a vent in the floor or a vent in the ceiling.
It would be unusual not to find a solution, so replacing your boiler for this reason does not make much sense.

[Ericthelobster]

According to my (reliable) registered plumber my boiler is not going to pass a gas certificate under new regulations on ventilation.

Its an old back boiler with fire at the front. Works well, but vents through the chimney. Plumber says this can't be made to comply with regs.

Problem fitting a new boiler as the gas pipe comes into the front of the terraced property and lounge and tiny hall at the front with nowhere for a boiler to go. (Also no drainage at the front). So gas pipe will need to go up the front of the house and through the roof to fit into the kitchen or airing cupboard.

Anyone verify this?I can't confirm either way I'm afraid except that it's a bit unusual for regs to be applied retrospectively, especially to the extent that an entire, otherwise serviceable system needs dumping. I think you're certainly right in wanting to get independent confirmation.

If you do need to replace the boiler, have you considered siting it anywhere upstairs, to avoid all that pipe routing? Bedrooms (eg inside a fitted wardrobe) and bathrooms are both perfectly permissible locations, contrary to popular belief.

[silvercar]

Spoken to a couple of experts now and the consensus seems to be that it could be a flue lining that needs replacing as well as the ventilation issue.

Without a visit I've been given a ball park figure of £800 for a new flue lining! Which makes me think that it would be more cost effective in the long term to replace now.

Although putting the boiler in a bedroom may be allowed, I am not sure whether that may put off prospective tenants. In any case its not on an outside wall at the moment, so if it needs to move to an outside wall it is probably easier to move it to an outside wall in the romm its in rather than upstairs.

Will keep you posted.

Thanks for all the info, very useful.

[westminster]

as a similarity, i know in some contracts with regards to viewings it says you can let ppl in by giving the T a cpl of days notice, but sure i've read its not legal that you can do that, so would it be similar in this case, i.e. i cant let anybody itnto the property without T's permission.



As Poppy says, you cannot enter without T's permission (doesn't matter what contract says). So long as you've made reasonable attempts to gain T's permission for access for gas check, you've covered yourself with regards to your LL's obligations to carry out gas check. So it's essential put something in writing to T.

[ljstof4]

Hi ,

I need advice regarding entering the property to service the boiler and re-issue a new Gas cert.
The tenant unfortunately is my wife's neice and is being very awkward allowing my plumber to enter the property.

I have contacted the tenant but she says she is busy whenever we try to set up a time to enter even though the plumber is a good friend of her mother so no issues there.
As this is s safety issue can we force her hand otherwise the cert will run out and so we will not be covered by the insurance or legally.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

regards
mark.

[Paul_f]

This has been asked many times. If you write to the tenant advising her that your efforts to have a GSC carried out have to date been rebuffed then until she gives your Gas Safety Engineer access you will not be responsible for the safety or any malfunction or failure of any appliances, boiler or the system itself until she does. Copy in your local Environmental Health Officer and/or H & S Executive.

[westminster]

I have contacted the tenant but she says she is busy whenever we try to set up a time to enter even though the plumber is a good friend of her mother so no issues there.

You need to make at least three attempts to gain access for the inspection. To protect yourself, you must create a paper trail for these attempts. That is, write to the tenant, suggesting a couple of possible dates for the inspection and ask for confirmation of a convenient date/time; send the letter first class and get a free certificate of posting, and keep the certificate of posting together with a copy of the letter on file.

Do this three times. In the last letter, leave the ball in the tenant's court and say that you wait to be advised of a date/time to carry out the inspection.

After that, you are protected against any complaint of failing to comply with gas safety regulations, because you'll be in a position to prove that you made every effort to carry out an inspection.

[Bazdaa]

But what about from a safety aspect. Does the LL not have the right to enter the property to do routine and emergency maintenance?

I don't care if the T wants to risk thief life, but would the landlord not want to protect thier asset?

Baz

[H20]

I agree with westminster.

Ideally, a tenancy agreement should have a condition that allows the LL to give the T 48 hours notice to allow him/her to enter the property to carry out necessary repairs and service to the LL building and fixtures.

[jeffrey]

It is a legal requirement, under:
a. gas safety legislation; and
b. s.11 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985.

[property mongrel]

are carbon monoxide detectors fitted? i understand you have to comply with the above re 7 days and letters to L, but if there is a problem with carbon monoxide, you might not be aware.
main symptoms below:
1.headaches
2.dizziness
3.nausea
4.breathlessness
5.collapse
6.loss of consciousness

pm

[andreinuk]

I am in a similar situation regarding the gas safety certificate. I have sent two letters to the landlord to supply the certificate but have not received a reply.

I have moved my belongings out of the property and are returning the keys to the agent tomorrow.

I entered into a fixed term AST on 01/02/09 for 12 months.

I understand that other members have advised that this is not a suitable reason to break the tenancy agreement. but I must disagree.

As the Gas Safety Regulations 1998 are an addition to the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 they are statute law. This would mean that they are an implied term of any tenancy agreement.

This would mean that the landlord had breached the tenancy agreement when they failed to have the inspection carried out.

I have worked for a letting agency for the past couple of years and have attended the Association of Residential Lettings Agent course on the legal aspects of letting. This is one reason that as acting as a previous managing agent, all safety inspections are carried out before the previous certificate expires.

And as far as I am aware, statute law takes precendence over contractual law. Hopefully someone can confirm this.

I shall let you know how things go with my own case.

[property mongrel]

I am in a similar situation regarding the gas safety certificate. I have sent two letters to the landlord to supply the certificate but have not received a reply. at what stage during your 15 months occupancy did you decide that the lack of a gas safety certificate was going to be an issue? when it suited you to find an excuse to leave perhaps?
I have moved my belongings out of the property and are returning the keys to the agent tomorrow. what has the LA done about the lack of a certificate being presented?

I entered into a fixed term AST on 01/02/09 for 12 months. why did you wait 15 months before taking the decision to leave?
I understand that other members have advised that this is not a suitable reason to break the tenancy agreement. but I must disagree.

As the Gas Safety Regulations 1998 are an addition to the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 they are statute law. This would mean that they are an implied term of any tenancy agreement.

This would mean that the landlord had breached the tenancy agreement when they failed to have the inspection carried out. you don't know that a gas inspection was not carried out, all you know is that you have not received proof that one has been carried out, completely different.

I have worked for a letting agency for the past couple of years and have attended the Association of Residential Lettings Agent course on the legal aspects of letting. This is one reason that as acting as a previous managing agent, all safety inspections are carried out before the previous certificate expires.

And as far as I am aware, statute law takes precendence over contractual law. i believe it is correct that there cannot be a contract that removes or overrides your statutory rights Hopefully someone can confirm this.

I shall let you know how things go with my own case. what case?

pm

[andreinuk]

First a quick apology as the date that I originally posted was incorrect.

I actually moved in on 01/02/10.

The Gas Safety Regulations do state that a certificate should be provided. Failure to provide the certificate is therefore a breach of the regulations.

I do take your point that I do not know for certain that the check has not been done, but if a landlord doesn't provide one despite requests what other conclusion can you make.

Most of the landlords that I have had dealings with in the past have been very profesional and understand the legal requirements of renting property. It is unfortunate that they seem to be labelled the same as the bad ones.

And I meant my situation rather than case. Apologies if I was unclear.

[property mongrel]

First a quick apology as the date that I originally posted was incorrect.

I actually moved in on 01/02/10. aah. on your arla course they did not mention the importance of getting dates correct then?:)

The Gas Safety Regulations do state that a certificate should be provided. Failure to provide the certificate is therefore a breach of the regulations. okay you have had 3 1/2 months to sort this
I do take your point that I do not know for certain that the check has not been done, but if a landlord doesn't provide one despite requests what other conclusion can you make. erm, that he/she might not have received the letters, that they may have recieved them and put a copy in the post to you which may have got lost, and that they may not have one, you choose? do you know for sure that the LL or the LA has received your letters?
Most of the landlords that I have had dealings with in the past have been very profesional professional and understand the legal requirements of renting property. It is unfortunate that they seem to be labelled the same as the bad ones.

what stage is your "case" at now?

suspicion or surmising is one thing, evidence you know to be fact is another.

pm

[andreinuk]

I must have edited my last post while you were posting. Bad choice of words using the word case rather than situation.

I am awaiting a response from the landlord regarding my actions.

I understand your point regarding the possibility that mail not been received and that a certificate may have been sent but if this was the case then it surely would have been remedied in a period of 3 months.

[andreinuk]

Just a quick update.

I have received contact from the landlord regarding the property.

They have agreed that the contract shall be terminated immediately and shall be returning my deposit.

[jeffrey]

Just a quick update.

I have received contact from the landlord regarding the property.

They have agreed that the contract shall be terminated immediately and shall be returning my deposit.
Sounds good; but believe it only once you hold cleared funds!