Johnr12
27-06-2006, 00:32 AM
Hello all,
I currently live with my wife and 4 friends in a three storey building owned by myself, with us all sharing amenities. I am aware that this is an HMO.
I am unable to afford the new HMO licence, and certainly would not be able to afford all the building work that would be required for the granting of a licence, (if indeed it were physically possibly to fit all the modifications in, which I doubt), so therefore I am left with the option of reducing the number of people in the house so that it falls under the '5 people or more limit' for licencing.
What I am trying to determine once and for all is how many tenants would have to leave so that I would not need a licence. One of my tenants is looking to leave within the next month, so I do not want to take on one or two new tenants if this will cause problems. My council has been less than helpful with their guidance. So far I have three differing opinions from the same department, on the phone, by email and at a meeting at the local town hall! I have to keep contacting them anonymously as well, which is just ridiculous, but I don't wish to tip them off just in case I end up doing something wrong in their eyes.
In light of this situation, if someone knowledgeable would be able to answer any of the following questions, I would be extremely grateful:
1.) If me, my wife and 3 tenants live together in the building, do we count as 4 people or 5 people for the purposes of licencing? (one council representative informed me that my wife and I only count as one person, however I think he almost certainly meant one household). I am guessing that I will need a licence - correct?
2.) How likely is it that councils will go door to door after the deadline has passed to check up on all the three+ storey buildings in their area? Will the prospect of netting £20,000 for themselves for every infringement mean that they will pursue this rigorously, or is the reality of the situation that they will just respond to complaints from unhappy tenants?
3.) If the Council suspects that a house should be licenced, I understand that they have the power to simply turn up whenever they like and enter the premises with no warning. Is this true? Would I just be able to stand at the doorstep and explain that we are under the 5 person limit, or are they within their rights to barge past me and inspect my house?
4.) If my wife and I claimed that the house was not our main residence, and that our main residence was living with my parents, where would we stand then? I am interested to know when a person is actually considered as 'living' at the premises for the purposes of licencing. If we were to say, for example, that our bedroom was simply maintained in the house for when we decided to visit occasionally, would this prove convincing enough for the council? If it came to a court case, would we have to prove that we did not live in the house, or is our word, and the fact that council tax records showed us as living at my parents, sufficient proof?
5.) If four unrelated people live together, a licence would not be required, but it would still be an HMO. Does this mean that all the building and safety standards prescribed for HMO's would still need to be observed? If so, and with no licence in this situation, how does the council know that all the neccessary work has been done? Do they have another way of tracking all the non-licenceable HMO's in their area, or do they just slip through the net?
6.) I am considering purchasing a large wooden cabin in the rear garden, and using it as a bedroom for one of the tenants, as his current bedroom is about 5 square feet under the 70 sq ft. mimimum. He is more than happy where he is, as there is copious communal space in the house, but I do not wish to risk being pulled up on this by the council should the situation arise. The cabin will be an entirely separate structure to the house, about 6 metres from the rear door of the house. Does the cabin need to be fully self-contained? (shower, toilet, cooking facilities) or is it acceptable for him to continue to use the facilities in the house (which are located on the ground and first floors), even though this journey will be via the garden? Can I just add that the cabin is entirely his suggestion, which he is extremely excited about - I am not forcably jettisoning him into the garden! He would also prefer to be without facilities in the cabin, as it would give him more living space. Once he is in the cabin, is he considered as living under the main house roof for the purposes of calculating how many people live in the house? Or is the cabin treated as a separate building with its own occupant, even though it is on the same piece of land?
Thank you very much for any help you can give me here. Worrying about this licencing has frankly made my life a misery for the past few months. I understand all too well the benefits that licencing will provide for disadvantaged tenants, but we have all lived happily together for years now in a well maintained, modern house. I just wish there was some way that tenants could agree to sign a document to say they are happy with their living arrangements if asked by the council, so that cases could be considered on a more individual basis, but I guess that would have its own problems. I am also concerned about the councils' extra discretionary powers. What is to stop them just saying that they are going to demand a licence for all HMO's regardless of number of occupants? Seems as though the only 100% guaranteed way of me having peace of mind is to get a licence regardless of circumstances...
Thank you, John.
I currently live with my wife and 4 friends in a three storey building owned by myself, with us all sharing amenities. I am aware that this is an HMO.
I am unable to afford the new HMO licence, and certainly would not be able to afford all the building work that would be required for the granting of a licence, (if indeed it were physically possibly to fit all the modifications in, which I doubt), so therefore I am left with the option of reducing the number of people in the house so that it falls under the '5 people or more limit' for licencing.
What I am trying to determine once and for all is how many tenants would have to leave so that I would not need a licence. One of my tenants is looking to leave within the next month, so I do not want to take on one or two new tenants if this will cause problems. My council has been less than helpful with their guidance. So far I have three differing opinions from the same department, on the phone, by email and at a meeting at the local town hall! I have to keep contacting them anonymously as well, which is just ridiculous, but I don't wish to tip them off just in case I end up doing something wrong in their eyes.
In light of this situation, if someone knowledgeable would be able to answer any of the following questions, I would be extremely grateful:
1.) If me, my wife and 3 tenants live together in the building, do we count as 4 people or 5 people for the purposes of licencing? (one council representative informed me that my wife and I only count as one person, however I think he almost certainly meant one household). I am guessing that I will need a licence - correct?
2.) How likely is it that councils will go door to door after the deadline has passed to check up on all the three+ storey buildings in their area? Will the prospect of netting £20,000 for themselves for every infringement mean that they will pursue this rigorously, or is the reality of the situation that they will just respond to complaints from unhappy tenants?
3.) If the Council suspects that a house should be licenced, I understand that they have the power to simply turn up whenever they like and enter the premises with no warning. Is this true? Would I just be able to stand at the doorstep and explain that we are under the 5 person limit, or are they within their rights to barge past me and inspect my house?
4.) If my wife and I claimed that the house was not our main residence, and that our main residence was living with my parents, where would we stand then? I am interested to know when a person is actually considered as 'living' at the premises for the purposes of licencing. If we were to say, for example, that our bedroom was simply maintained in the house for when we decided to visit occasionally, would this prove convincing enough for the council? If it came to a court case, would we have to prove that we did not live in the house, or is our word, and the fact that council tax records showed us as living at my parents, sufficient proof?
5.) If four unrelated people live together, a licence would not be required, but it would still be an HMO. Does this mean that all the building and safety standards prescribed for HMO's would still need to be observed? If so, and with no licence in this situation, how does the council know that all the neccessary work has been done? Do they have another way of tracking all the non-licenceable HMO's in their area, or do they just slip through the net?
6.) I am considering purchasing a large wooden cabin in the rear garden, and using it as a bedroom for one of the tenants, as his current bedroom is about 5 square feet under the 70 sq ft. mimimum. He is more than happy where he is, as there is copious communal space in the house, but I do not wish to risk being pulled up on this by the council should the situation arise. The cabin will be an entirely separate structure to the house, about 6 metres from the rear door of the house. Does the cabin need to be fully self-contained? (shower, toilet, cooking facilities) or is it acceptable for him to continue to use the facilities in the house (which are located on the ground and first floors), even though this journey will be via the garden? Can I just add that the cabin is entirely his suggestion, which he is extremely excited about - I am not forcably jettisoning him into the garden! He would also prefer to be without facilities in the cabin, as it would give him more living space. Once he is in the cabin, is he considered as living under the main house roof for the purposes of calculating how many people live in the house? Or is the cabin treated as a separate building with its own occupant, even though it is on the same piece of land?
Thank you very much for any help you can give me here. Worrying about this licencing has frankly made my life a misery for the past few months. I understand all too well the benefits that licencing will provide for disadvantaged tenants, but we have all lived happily together for years now in a well maintained, modern house. I just wish there was some way that tenants could agree to sign a document to say they are happy with their living arrangements if asked by the council, so that cases could be considered on a more individual basis, but I guess that would have its own problems. I am also concerned about the councils' extra discretionary powers. What is to stop them just saying that they are going to demand a licence for all HMO's regardless of number of occupants? Seems as though the only 100% guaranteed way of me having peace of mind is to get a licence regardless of circumstances...
Thank you, John.