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sbedvek
14-04-2010, 19:29 PM
New here - great site - it's been a big help to me so far.

Just a quickie - What are people's preferred method's of serving a section 8?

I've found three options so far -

1. Do it yourself online via possessionclaim.gov.uk - not sure of the cost
2. Instruct an agency - £65 is the lowest I found
3. Downloading a form from the web for £10

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts as I need to do this in the next couple of days.

Many thanks.

matthew_henson
14-04-2010, 19:37 PM
New here - great site - it's been a big help to me so far.

Just a quickie - What are people's preferred method's of serving a section 8?

I've found three options so far -

1. Do it yourself online via possessionclaim.gov.uk - not sure of the cost
2. Instruct an agency - £65 is the lowest I found
3. Downloading a form from the web for £10

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts as I need to do this in the next couple of days.

Many thanks.

Download the form for free from this site or www.letlink.co.uk, ask the wonderful people on this board for a little advice to make sure you don't make a mistake and post using normal mail but asking for proof of posting and don't forget to keep a copy.... simples

Snorkerz
14-04-2010, 19:42 PM
The section 8 is not a court process - so ignore www.possessionclaim.gov.uk for now.

The simplest way is to download a free s8 form off this site (see agreements above - you will have to re-register). Post it first class from 2 different post offices with free certificate of posting.

The court will accept that as served the following working day.
Do not use Recorded Delivery or similar - tenants can refuse delivery.

The above is what an agency will charge you £65 for.

Once your 14 days notice is up (presuming it is ground 8, 10 & 11) you can commence court proceedings using either www.possessionclaim.gov.uk for £100 or by paper forms at your local county court for £150.

sbedvek
15-04-2010, 07:46 AM
Thanks guys - that's a big help. I didn't realise I could get it from this site. Marvellous. I'll get on it right away.

I genuinely think (hope!) that my tenants intend to pay up, they've just been a little slack and I need to take out some insurance as it were.

One question - why do I need to mail the form twice from two different post offices?

Snorkerz
15-04-2010, 08:01 AM
One question - why do I need to mail the form twice from two different post offices?If you only send a single copy, the tenant may claim as their defence that they never received your s8 notice. A judge is not going to believe that 2 notices from 2 separate sources will go astray.

sbedvek
04-05-2010, 08:10 AM
Hi guys,

I posted a section 8 notice from two different post offices on Wednesday 21st. So, presumably, I can start the possession claim from the gov website on Thursday/Friday depending on whether the bank holiday counts or not.

How long is the wait for a court date? Anything else I need to know/prepare?

Also, the deposit is not protected (as stated in the tenancy agreement) because I never received a deposit. A cock-up on my part but because I knew the tenants I didn't forsee a problem. Beginners mistake that I won't be making next time.

Presumably this won't affect the court outcome.

Thanks in advance for your help/advice.

Kev

Snorkerz
04-05-2010, 10:37 AM
I think you need to presume that the documents were served on Friday 23rd, so you can commence your possession claim on Friday - but I'd be inclined to wait until Monday to avoid arguments.

You will be given a hearing date when you submit your online claim - it varies depending on how busy your local court is - expect 4-6 weeks.

Your lack of deposit isn't an issue in this instance - don't worry.

sbedvek
04-05-2010, 15:23 PM
One more thing. If the court grants a possession order. How long will it take to re-obtain possession of my house?

Snorkerz
04-05-2010, 19:08 PM
One more thing. If the court grants a possession order. How long will it take to re-obtain possession of my house?Judge will give a minimum of 14 days notice to tenant. If the tenant does not go, you will need to employ court bailiffs (not allowed to DIY) which will take around another fortnight (and cost money).

sbedvek
10-05-2010, 13:24 PM
I need to use Pcol as a section 8 has now expired.

I've read the notes on the Pcol site and a couple of things bothered me....

Please check that PCOL is suitable for your claim before you start.
PCOL is suitable if:

It is brought under Section I of Part 55.
It includes a possession claim for residential property by - a landlord against a tenant, solely on the ground of arrears of rent (but not a claim for forfeiture of a lease); or a mortgagee against a mortgagor, solely on the ground of default in the payment of sums due under a mortgage.

I don't know what section I of Part 55 refers to and "but not a claim for forfeiture of a lease" seems vague. My tenants signed an AST.

Any advice on this greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Kev

davidjohnbutton
10-05-2010, 13:59 PM
If you are a landlord, owning the house with or without mortgage and you have issued your AST tenant with a S8 notice specifying at least ground 8, but potentially also grounds 10 and 11 for rent unpaid, then you are OK to issue using PCOL.

jeffrey
10-05-2010, 14:15 PM
If you are a landlord, owning the house with or without mortgage and you have issued your AST tenant with a S8 notice specifying at least ground 8, but potentially also grounds 10 and 11 for rent unpaid, then you are OK to issue using PCOL.
Did you not mean "...at least ground 10, but potentially also ground 8 (and, if applicable, ground 11)..."?
If g8 applies, g10 always applies; but not vice-versa!

davidjohnbutton
10-05-2010, 15:27 PM
Yes Jeffrey - but I was trying to simplify the answer, but to be pedantic, you are correct.

jeffrey
10-05-2010, 15:39 PM
I wasn't trying to be pedantic (unusually for me, I know) but to correct your apparent error.
I imagine that you knew but, to be fair, sbedvek might well not. I cannot conceive of a case in which g8 applies but where g10 only 'potentially' applies.

sbedvek
11-05-2010, 11:59 AM
Thanks guys. For the record, it's grounds 8, 10 and 11 :)

sbedvek
11-05-2010, 15:09 PM
* BUMP *

I've just used pcol and everything seemed fine but right at the end it wouldn't process payment because it said my card number was invalid. I double checked my number and ensured it was correct but no joy.

My card is visa debit. The options in the list were either visa or visa/delta and trying either of these gave the same message. I don't think it can possibly be an issue with my bank because the message came back virtually instantly - it couldn't have gone away and checked anything.

Anyone else had similar problems? What's my next step now?

Also, when I do get this sorted, how quickly will the date come through from the courts? Presumably this will be sent through to the tenants as well?

Thanks,
Kev

P.Pilcher
11-05-2010, 15:28 PM
Therin you have it: you used a debit card! I have had this problem in the past: the instructions to the web designer were to set up the site to accept credit cards for payment, so this is precicely what it does! The minion who set up the specification for the web designer probably wanted to accept debit cards as well, but there is a difference and as he did not specify that debit cards as well as credit cards should be accepted, debit cards aren't!
But then, what do you expect a civil servant, with his first class honours degree in both ancient latin and greek to know about credit/debit cards except that you can use them to pay for things!
So, use a genuine credit card and your troubles may be over. (Note I did say "may"!)

P.P.

davidjohnbutton
11-05-2010, 15:33 PM
I have used my First Direct and LTSB DEBIT CARDS successfully quite a number of times - always goes through without any hitch.

sbedvek
11-05-2010, 16:06 PM
Do I have any other alternative? I literally don't own a credit card.

thesaint
11-05-2010, 16:08 PM
Money Claim Online Help: 0845 601 5935

sbedvek
12-05-2010, 10:52 AM
Thanks - I found this number and called them but didn't get any joy. They said the system is being upgraded and to try debit card again next week.

I tried a family member's credit card (which they said is fine) but got exactly the same error.

Looks like it's knackered at the moment and there aren't any alternatives. Very frustrating.

I'll try and call them again later but I doubt I'll get anywhere. Will post again if I discover anything useful.

sbedvek
13-05-2010, 12:04 PM
I finally got to the bottom of this without the helpline as they were very busy yesterday and the call queues were too long.

Using Mastercard, I managed to pay the £100 fee but I had to enter the valid from month/year - even though they're not marked as mandatory fields.

This may be the same for debit card but I didn't get a chance to try as it accepted the Mastercard.

I'm still not too familiar with these forums etc. so I don't know if there are stickies etc. but I'm pretty sure this information would be useful to others so please feel free to link to this thread or move it elsewhere.

Thanks again to everyone that's tried to help with this and other threads I've posted lately - this site is a goldmine of info.

Kev

sbedvek
13-05-2010, 12:07 PM
Having successfully registered a possession claim through Pcol (and received a date upon payment) I just wondered what happens next. Specifically, do the courts write to my tenants? I was going to inform them anyway in the hope of springing them into action.

I'll be preparing all of the relevant paperwork shortly ahead of the court date (4 weeks-ish). Anything else I need to know or be thinking about?

Thanks all.

davidjohnbutton
13-05-2010, 12:59 PM
Do a search on my user name davidjohnbutton - I give plenty of guidance and tips.

No harm in writing to your tenants giving them a preview of the summons printed off from the PCOL site - it might just galvanise them into action.

One further little tip - although a S8 possesion does not require the deposit to be protected before issuing the S8 notice (like a S21 does), nevertheless if you have not protected it when you shold have then it is possible the tenant (usually under advice from a housing aid officer) might counterclaim for 3x penalty plus the deposit in order to reduce the arrears, potentially to a level below which the judge has to order mandatory possession.

A HARP officer tried this on me when I assisted a landlord at York Court recently when we had been generous enough to state an intention to ask for a 42 day possession order since the female had a 5 week old baby. I quoted the Draycott v. Hannings case to counter that and said we would insist on an immediate or 14 day PO if the HARP officer used that defence (even with the counterclaim it would not have brought the arrears down to below 2 months, so we would still have got the PO).

The HARP officer then dropped it after a further consultation with the tenants literally at the judges door and we got the 42 day order and uncontested judgment for the rent unpaid.

jeffrey
13-05-2010, 13:16 PM
A HARP officer? Who's died and gone to Heaven?

Charles19
13-05-2010, 13:28 PM
Do a search on my user name davidjohnbutton - I give plenty of guidance and tips.


Is that you in a green shirt on a boat - with glasses and bushy moustache?
;o)
Chas

davidjohnbutton
13-05-2010, 15:36 PM
It sure is - though that was taken in 1999 in
Tenerife when I was 45

HARP Jeffrey is Homeless Action Resource Project who appear in some county courts to give advice to the "about to be repossessed".

sbedvek
13-05-2010, 22:20 PM
Do a search on my user name davidjohnbutton - I give plenty of guidance and tips.

No harm in writing to your tenants giving them a preview of the summons printed off from the PCOL site - it might just galvanise them into action.

One further little tip - although a S8 possesion does not require the deposit to be protected before issuing the S8 notice (like a S21 does), nevertheless if you have not protected it when you shold have then it is possible the tenant (usually under advice from a housing aid officer) might counterclaim for 3x penalty plus the deposit in order to reduce the arrears, potentially to a level below which the judge has to order mandatory possession.

A HARP officer tried this on me when I assisted a landlord at York Court recently when we had been generous enough to state an intention to ask for a 42 day possession order since the female had a 5 week old baby. I quoted the Draycott v. Hannings case to counter that and said we would insist on an immediate or 14 day PO if the HARP officer used that defence (even with the counterclaim it would not have brought the arrears down to below 2 months, so we would still have got the PO).

The HARP officer then dropped it after a further consultation with the tenants literally at the judges door and we got the 42 day order and uncontested judgment for the rent unpaid.

Thanks muchly. As it stands no deposit is protected because I never received a deposit. I received £650 when it should have been £1500 (deposit plus first month), followed by £300 when it should have been £750, followed by £350 when it should have been £750. Nothing since then but a bunch of excuses.

sbedvek
18-05-2010, 12:16 PM
I have a court date on the 14th June to try and reclaim posession of my house. Here's what I'm going to be preparing.....


A copy of the AST agreement
A copy of the signed inventory
A copy of the rent schedule and what has/hasn't been paid
A copy of the section 8 I sent the tenants
Proof of posting receipts for the section 8
A copy of bank statements highlighting payments to date
A copy of any written correspondence with tenants


I have communicated with my tenants via SMS on several occassions. I wonder if it is also worth trying to get printed copies of this?

Is there anything else that might be useful that I haven't included?

Thanks.

jeffrey
18-05-2010, 12:18 PM
Which grounds are you using: 8 and 10 and 11 (or just one or two of them)?

Ericthelobster
18-05-2010, 12:43 PM
I have communicated with my tenants via SMS on several occassions. I wonder if it is also worth trying to get printed copies of this?Certainly can't do any harm - I've done this myself in the past and included the printouts in my bundle as evidence of the number of times I've chased for rent etc.

thesaint
18-05-2010, 13:00 PM
I have communicated with my tenants via SMS on several occassions. I wonder if it is also worth trying to get printed copies of this?

Is there anything else that might be useful that I haven't included?

Thanks.

I would prepare a sheet with the SMS messages, but I don't know if a judge would entertain them, as it's easy to fake a SMS message on a phone, and even doubly so once printed.

If it's ignored, it's not that important.

I always refer to text messages in written correspondence to tenants, that way, there response to my letter should either confirm or deny a SMS has been sent/received with the information included in the letter. They would be hard pushed to show a letter was not sent in the same way a text can be denied.

sbedvek
18-05-2010, 14:31 PM
Which grounds are you using: 8 and 10 and 11 (or just one or two of them)?

I cited 8 and 10 and 11 on both the section 8 form and the on the PCOL website.

Poppy35
18-05-2010, 21:03 PM
Proof of deposit protection if applicable. I know its not required as you are not claming under S21 but good to have it to hand.

I always take proof of gas and elec safety checks just in case tenant decides to throw it up that gas check has not been done as a stalling technique

good luck

sbedvek
15-06-2010, 13:31 PM
Thanks to all on this site who offer advice as I went to court yesterday, the decision went in my favour and I'm getting my house back on the 28th.

Next up, I'll be having to file another claim for the rent arrears - any advice on this?

Also, how early can I show potential new tenants around? I really don't want to do this before the 28th but I wondered on the point of law.

Thanks.

jeffrey
15-06-2010, 13:35 PM
Obviously you can advertise the premises; but wait until you have fully-vacant possession before you re-enter and show prospective tenants around.

islandgirl
15-06-2010, 13:37 PM
of course you have to be prepared for the possiblility that the tenants may not leave on the 28th....

thesaint
15-06-2010, 13:43 PM
Congratulations, hopefully they will leave asap!
Give us a brief synopsis of what happened.

Previous thread:

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=28511

Moderator1
15-06-2010, 16:41 PM
Six threads by the same member have been merged here. Please do not start a new thread if you merely wish to continue a previous discussion or report on subsequent developments. It can cause unnecessary confusion (quite apart from losing the connection with facts previously established or legal points previously explained).

sbedvek
16-06-2010, 10:26 AM
Six threads by the same member have been merged here. Please do not start a new thread if you merely wish to continue a previous discussion or report on subsequent developments. It can cause unnecessary confusion (quite apart from losing the connection with facts previously established or legal points previously explained).

Yeah, sorry about that and thanks for the merge.

I'll keep people posted on developments if it's of use.

sbedvek
21-06-2010, 20:52 PM
Hi, so my tenants should be out on the 28th (although I need to chase the paperwork from the courts - I haven't seen anything in the post yet).

If they refuse to leave can I still enter the property? I need to get a new EPC sorted and would ideally like to book this for the 28th.

Also, I then need to file a claim for the rent arrears. My concern is that, once my tenants are out, I'll have no forwarding address. However, I have an address for both their employers and their places of work. Presumably the courts can use these?

Many thanks.

Ericthelobster
21-06-2010, 22:35 PM
If they refuse to leave can I still enter the property?No you can't - you'll need to get the court bailiffs to evict them, which will cost ££ and take several more weeks.


Also, I then need to file a claim for the rent arrears. My concern is that, once my tenants are out, I'll have no forwarding address. However, I have an address for both their employers and their places of work. Presumably the courts can use these?Have you not already claimed for arrears within the Section 8 proceedings? Doesn't the judgement you won already allow for this?

sbedvek
22-06-2010, 09:50 AM
Have you not already claimed for arrears within the Section 8 proceedings? Doesn't the judgement you won already allow for this?

The judge advised me that I'd have to claim seperately once the tenants were out.

sbedvek
24-06-2010, 11:42 AM
So, here's a question for you. How do I know when my tenants are out given that I can't legally enter the property until they are and getting written communication from them is highly unlikely.

thesaint
25-06-2010, 19:35 PM
So, here's a question for you. How do I know when my tenants are out given that I can't legally enter the property until they are and getting written communication from them is highly unlikely.

Drive past and look. If it's left out front, check the bins for rubbish are two ways to see if they are still there.

Get a friend to knock the door if you are one of those that mistakenly believe that you will do time for knocking the door yourself.

sbedvek
27-06-2010, 08:39 AM
Ok, well I'm going to step up attempts to contact them this week.

I'm pretty certain my tenants are both in full-time employment but I don't know what kind of savings they have if any. Is getting a "EX324 - Order to obtain information from a judgement debtor" worth it or should I go for a straight attachment of earnings? Anyone know how long an EX324 takes to process?

Also, once they're out I presume that I'm going to have no forwarding address, only their employee details if that influences my decision any.

davidjohnbutton
27-06-2010, 11:08 AM
The problem with having them in for oral examination/questioning is that the order has to be served on them personally by a bailiff from the county court. If that does not happen, then that process grinds to a halt until personal service is efffected. So if you get skates on, you could go this way and have them served before they leave.

In my view, you should go for an attachment of earnings - get on with that as soon as they fail to pay on the possession order (you cannot take this out until the date on the order by which they must pay has passed). This may elicit their new address eventually as well as securing payments but note that payments will only attach whilst they stay in this employment.

The other way, and from my experience bailiffs are reluctant to do this, is when executing the Warrant for Possession (if they dont leave voluntarily), the WOP application on the PCOL website gives you the option if issuing not only for possession, but the outstanding court award as well. I can imagine the court bailiffs not wanting to do this if it can be avoided because to not only evict, but sieze their goods as well is potential for turning a peaceful eviction into a resistive one.

sbedvek
28-06-2010, 07:05 AM
Thanks. Today is deadline day so I'm going to try and get hold of my tenants and at least find out their intentions. Will keep this thread updated.

sbedvek
28-06-2010, 12:19 PM
Tenants claim to be moving out today so I'm trying to arrange for cleaners/estate agent etc. to visit tomorrow so I can get someone reliable in ASAP.

The next big step is to go for attachement of earnings so I'll keep people posted on that one if useful.

sbedvek
29-06-2010, 12:29 PM
The tenancy was joint but looking at the attachment of earnings form it seems to be on an individual basis. Do I complete a form for each tenant?

Ericthelobster
29-06-2010, 18:37 PM
The tenancy was joint but looking at the attachment of earnings form it seems to be on an individual basis. Do I complete a form for each tenant???? As far as I can tell you haven't got a judgement against the tenants yet - you have to get that before you can apply for an attachment of earnings order.

sbedvek
29-06-2010, 20:58 PM
On the order for possesion, along with stating the defendant give up posession of the house, it also states....

"The defendant pay the claimaint £x for rent arrears"

"The defendant pay the claimants costs of £100"

"The defendant pay the total amount of £x"

Surely this is a judgement? The judge just said that I had to apply seperately for an attachment of earnings if they moved out but did not pay which is what has happened.

The only thing I'm unsure about is a line, directed at the defendant, which states "The claimant will send you a copy of the bill of costs with a notice telling you what to do if you object to this amount. If you do object, the claimant will ask the court to fix a hearing to assess the amount".

I'm not completely clear on my obligations here. I've consistently sent them paperwork regarding what they owe and the posession order already summarises this as stated above. I'd appreciate any advice on this.

Thanks.

bsx043
29-06-2010, 22:10 PM
I have read some posts on this forum as I am in a similar situation myself, and must say that I am confused about this.

The post by Davidjohnburton (above) suggests that you can enforce a PCOL money judgement through AofE but others I have read seem to imply that you have to make a separate claim for the money judgement before it can be enforced. Some advice appreciated here, thanks.

davidjohnbutton
29-06-2010, 22:41 PM
If the court order for possession states that an amount of money has to be paid by x date, then that is a judgment commonly known as a CCJ and it thus can be enforced in default by any of the usual methods.

A S8 ground 8/10/11 order will nearly always include a money judgment

S 21 possession wont except for the court fee.

sbedvek
30-06-2010, 05:44 AM
If the court order for possession states that an amount of money has to be paid by x date, then that is a judgment commonly known as a CCJ and it thus can be enforced in default by any of the usual methods.

A S8 ground 8/10/11 order will nearly always include a money judgment

S 21 possession wont except for the court fee.

Thanks. I think the confusion was from one of my earlier posts when I think I initially misunderstoodwhat the judge and had not yet received the order.

Anyway, my earlier question still stands - The tenancy was joint but looking at the attachment of earnings form it seems to be on an individual basis. Do I complete a form for each tenant?

thesaint
30-06-2010, 12:11 PM
Do I complete a form for each tenant?

Why wouldn't you?

jeffrey
30-06-2010, 12:19 PM
Why wouldn't you?
E.g. if they're jointly and severally liable.