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froglet
14-04-2010, 17:31 PM
Hi
Im really confused,
its along story but basically my LL hasnt protected my bond, ive been in the property 3 years the original TA started before the deposit scheme started, but it was renewed when a new LA took over the property so it should have been protected at that point, the LL realised this and fell out with the LA, so we have moved to a new LA,
I have had property repair issues that are finally getting sorted out and the new LA took over whilst I was battling with the previous LA to get things done, and I have refused to sign a new TA with them until everything is sorted out.

I got a phonecall from the LL assuring me that he didnt want me to leave the property and to apologise about all the stress and confusion that was going on (he seemed a very nice man)

some repairs have been done but Im still chasing other stuff, and I fully intend to sign a new TA with them, when I am happy with everything,which had been verbally agreed

anyway out of the blue today I get a new 6 months AS TA sent to me, included is a sec 48, which I understand is notifying me of a new LA which is fine, but also there a 2 copies of a section 21b included, neither are signed by the LA, they are for me to sign and it states that the LA wants to claim back the property after the 21/09/10

why have they done this,
I understand as my bond isnt protected, the LL/LA lost there right to serve this on me
but why include it with a TA they are very keen for me to sign? if I sign the agreement it surely still doesnt give him the right back to serve this on me does it

are they trying to frighten me

any help would be appreciated

TIA

mind the gap
14-04-2010, 17:50 PM
I doubt that they are trying to frighten you. It's just that some letting agents have a funny way of saying 'Welcome to your new tenancy'. In other words, some agents (your LL's new one is obviously one of them) routinely, mindlessly, issue a section 21 notice at the start of every AST tenancy, just in case the LL decides he wants the property back at the end of the fixed term (even when 99% of the time, he doesn't).All it means is that if the LL wants his house back and if you refuse to move out, the LL can then apply for a court order for possession (which takes some time - you would not be thrown out on the streets on the day the s21 expires).It does not even mean that the LL wants you out after 6 months - he probably doesn't even realise that the new LA has sent you it. Why not write to him and express your alarm about it? I'm sure he'll be able to put your mind at rest.

There has been a lot of discussion on the forum about this (in my view) unhelpful practice.

froglet
14-04-2010, 17:53 PM
I doubt that they are trying to frighten you. It's just that some letting agents have a funny way of saying 'Welcome to your new tenancy'. In other words, some agents routinely issue a section 21 notice at the start of the tenancy just in case the LL decides he wants the property back at the end of the fixed term (even when 99% of the time, he doesn't).It does not mean that the LL wants you out after 6 months - he probably doesn't even realise that the new LA has sent you it. Why not write to him and express your alarm about it? I'm sure he'll be able to put your mind at rest.

There has been a lot of discussion on the forum about this (in my view) unhelpful practice.

ah thankyou
Im new to the forum and didnt realise there were previous discussions,
what would suggest I search under

am I right in thinking he cant serve it as the bond isnt in a scheme?

mind the gap
14-04-2010, 17:56 PM
Read this thread:

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=27175&highlight=home

And yes, you are correct : LL's failure to protect a protectable AST tenancy deposit invalidates a section 21 notice.

Snorkerz
14-04-2010, 18:03 PM
Also, if you sign and date the s21 (you don't have to sign it - but in this case it will help) the day BEFORE you sign and date the tenancy agreement then it won't be valid. You don't need to tell the LA that it isn't valid on either count, simply wait until they try to use it in court proceedings for possession. This way, if you need extra time if/when that happens, you will be guaranteed at least an extra couple of months or so.

froglet
14-04-2010, 18:13 PM
thankyou for your replies

I have another quick question,what if my LL suddenly protects my bond, does he get his rights back just like that or would it go against him that the bond wasnt protected at the correct time

I have a verbal agreement with him that I just wouldnt pay my last months rent, because the bond I paid to the very first LA ( which didnt need protecting because the scheme didnt exsist) disappeared when that company went into administration so he doesnt actually have the money, its not like he purposly didnt put it into a scheme, he was lied to by the 2nd LA who issued the new TA who said that they had dealt with the bond issue for him

should I get this in writing, would this stop him from suddenly protecting it to evict me

Snorkerz
14-04-2010, 18:19 PM
Your verbal agreement is still a deposit so far as deposit protection is concerned. Your deposit is the landlords liability - it isn't your issue who holds it or who has done what to whom.

If your landlord protects your deposit, he can then issue a valid s21 (providing he has also given you the required "prescribed information") BUT any s21 issued before that remains invalid.

froglet
14-04-2010, 18:35 PM
Your verbal agreement is still a deposit so far as deposit protection is concerned. Your deposit is the landlords liability - it isn't your issue who holds it or who has done what to whom.

If your landlord protects your deposit, he can then issue a valid s21 (providing he has also given you the required "prescribed information") BUT any s21 issued before that remains invalid.

wouldnt the court order take into consideration that the bond had conveniently just been protected 2 years late and then the LL seeks an eviction order?

mind the gap
14-04-2010, 18:40 PM
wouldnt the court order take into consideration that the bond had conveniently just been protected 2 years late and then the LL seeks an eviction order?
No, but the court would take into consideration the fact that the s21 had been served before the deposit was protected - and throw it out. To get a court order for possession the LL would have to serve a new, correct s21, whcih as Snorkerz says, would give you some breathing space.

Snorkerz
14-04-2010, 18:46 PM
wouldnt the court order take into consideration that the bond had conveniently just been protected 2 years late and then the LL seeks an eviction order?No, so long as the deposit was protected beforehand (and 'prescribed information' issued) then the s21 is valid. An s21 is Black or White, Valid or Not and the following court case will only depend on wether the s21 was valid or not. If it is valid, the judge HAS to give possession to the landlord, usually giving 14 days notice to the tenant.

froglet
14-04-2010, 18:50 PM
so the best thing to do is to sign the s21 notice send that back ASAP and wait until I am satisifed with the ongoing repairs and send back the TA?

I dont even want to sign a new agreement but the 2nd LA issued it solely in my name and the current LA are insisitng that the agreement be issued and signed by me and my partner,I suppose this is correct

but the s21 notice is worthless as I know for a fact that my bond wasnt protected

is it worth sending it back at all?

froglet
14-04-2010, 18:51 PM
No, so long as the deposit was protected beforehand (and 'prescribed information' issued) then the s21 is valid. An s21 is Black or White, Valid or Not and the following court case will only depend on wether the s21 was valid or not. If it is valid, the judge HAS to give possession to the landlord, usually giving 14 days notice to the tenant.

what do you mean exactly by this?

Snorkerz
14-04-2010, 19:07 PM
what do you mean exactly by this?

Each scheme specifies a set of information that has to be given to the tenant - it's like a 'handbook' to your deposit. There is no set format - but here is an example of the kind of things that are included (this is DPS) https://www.depositprotection.com/WebContent.ashx?docid=2be01c4a-1d75-45b7-8819-6cfe30d060dd.

Members on LLZ are divided over how serious this is, and if it is enough to derail an s21 - but I believe it is a clear breach of the Housing Act 2004 section 215(1)(b)


215
(1)If a tenancy deposit has been paid in connection with a shorthold tenancy, no section 21 notice may be given in relation to the tenancy at a time when—
(a)the deposit is not being held in accordance with an authorised scheme, or
(b)the initial requirements of such a scheme (see section 213(4)) have not been complied with in relation to the deposit.

froglet
14-04-2010, 20:09 PM
Each scheme specifies a set of information that has to be given to the tenant - it's like a 'handbook' to your deposit. There is no set format - but here is an example of the kind of things that are included (this is DPS) https://www.depositprotection.com/WebContent.ashx?docid=2be01c4a-1d75-45b7-8819-6cfe30d060dd.

Members on LLZ are divided over how serious this is, and if it is enough to derail an s21 - but I believe it is a clear breach of the Housing Act 2004 section 215(1)(b)

thankyou

what do you think about my best course of action for dealing with the s21 notice,should I sign and send it back even though it is worthless?

Snorkerz
14-04-2010, 20:15 PM
thankyou

what do you think about my best course of action for dealing with the s21 notice,should I sign and send it back even though it is worthless?Yes, I would do just that. They will file it away and forget about it until the time comes for it to supposedly serve its purpose. They will submit a possession claim to the court, and you will respond to that claim with your little bombshell - blowing the possession claim out of the water. Cue a new s21 and a new possession process - but that's 3+ months worth.

The alternative is to draw their attention to the s21 - someone might spot the problem and correct it before it becomes an issue for the landlord.