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Worried T
27-03-2010, 16:47 PM
Hello

Please can someone help? I have already tried the CAB but my local one said there was nobody there who could help and referred me to a telephone helpline, who haven't called me back yet.

I rent a property which was originally on a 6 month AST, this then became a rolling tenancy as no new agreements were signed. I originally moved in around 2 years ago. I pay my rent monthly.

I have received a letter from my landlord saying he wishes to sell the house and therefore is giving me 8 weeks notice to leave. I am resigned to having to move, but want to negotiate the leaving date with my landlord.

The letter does not state whether it is a Section 21 notice (although I assume that is what it is supposed to be). It does not specify a date when I have to move out, although it is dated and states 8 weeks notice. The 8 weeks ends on a rent day however I thought I was entitled to 2 months (and 2 months from the date of the notice is a week or so after a rent day).

If it came to it, would the landlord be granted possession on the basis of this letter?

My second question is, the landlord's estate agent (who has had nothing to do with the tenancy at all but has been employed to sell the house) wants to come round and measure up/take photos. I am concerned that if marketing starts straight away this will cause an unwelcome intrusion of my privacy.

Am I entitled to state that the Estate Agent cannot come to take photographs until the last month of the tenancy and that no viewings are to be carried out until I have moved out?

I want to write to the Landlord setting out my concerns and would be most grateful for any help.

As an additional point I have found out that my deposit was not protected.

jta
27-03-2010, 18:22 PM
If your deposit was not protected then any S21 notice is going to be invalid anyway.

It also puts you in the potential position of being able to claim 3x the deposit from your landlord, although he could defeat that claim by protecting it late.

You do not have to allow anyone at all into your home to take photographs or to show people round if you do not want that.

Hope this helps.

rebecca.483
27-03-2010, 18:25 PM
Loads of people have posted really good answers to your question in other threads...
but basically my understanding is if deposit not protected and taken after april 2007 cant serve s21, As jta says above much better than me
but if it is s21 should be written on there
and 2 months is right and CAB and Community legal advise told me this should be on rent day,

I think based on this he would have to reserve notice properly (after protected deposit).

Be aware I am just going by things I have read and been told myself.

as for right to viewings etc haven't researched that enough myself to give you any guidence but it is bound to be on this forum somewhere.

jta
27-03-2010, 18:36 PM
but if it is s21 should be written on there


No Rebecca, it does not have to say it's a S21, providing it has all the elements correct that's what it is treated as, in this case it doesn't and it isn't.

Worried T
27-03-2010, 18:42 PM
Thank you both.

I know he is in the wrong not to have protected my deposit. To be honest I am not interested in claiming the 3xdeposit as that would seem unfair anyway (he's always been decent with me and I have no desire to make a profit like that at his expense).

I am proposing writing a letter advising him that, although his notice is not valid, I am prepared to vacate the property on the date he has requested. However the conditions of him doing that are:

1) he either protects or returns my deposit immediatly

2) that no photographs/viewings are to take place until the last month of my tenancy, and any such viewings should be arranged with 48 hours notice, at times specified by me and limited to not more than two occasions per week.

How would I stand if a "For Sale" sign was erected? Last time I lived in a house with one of these, I was constantly getting callers at the door asking to view! Do I have any rights not to have a For Sale sign errected?

mind the gap
27-03-2010, 18:45 PM
Worried T : also, if you rent is payable monthly, then your LL should (once the deposit is protected) give you no less than two months' notice (not 8 weeks), with the notice expiring on the last day of a rent payment period.

When does rent fall due - which day of the month?

I think you are being very reasonable, but you do not have to allow viewings at all if you don't want to. I do not think you can legitimately object to a For Sale sign but you could insist that it also bears a notice saying 'Viewings strictly by appointment only with x estate agent/tel no etc). You do not have to answer the door to callers.

rebecca.483
27-03-2010, 18:50 PM
would you know jta if that means if some one has written its a section 21(1)b and then it goes into a periodic they cant use it or they can? thanks

jta
27-03-2010, 19:14 PM
S21(1)(b) is issued during the fixed tenancy, i.e. before it becomes a periodic tenancy, although it can run through the end of contract date. Once the tenancy is in the periodic phase the LL has to use a S21(4)(a), which must give two clear months notice and also must end on a 'rent due' day.

The notice should state the LL requires possession after that 'rent due' day.

There are lots of threads on this, search 'sword of damocles' for a good selection.

Worried T
27-03-2010, 19:17 PM
When does rent fall due - which day of the month?


It is due on the 10th. So the earliest he could make me leave, I believe, is the 10th June (if he serves notice again, properly, having protected my deposit, before 10th April).

If he doesn't get the deposit sorted and misses that date it could be 10th July.

In all honesty I would be happy to leave as soon as I find somewhere else (like I said, I accept this house is being sold sooner or later and I can't stop that). But I am planning for the worse case that I cannot find anywhere suitable.

Can you clarify, does the notice need to state that it is being issued under Section 21 etc, as this does not. Basically this is just a letter he has written me.

Thanks everyone for your help so far, I do appreciate it.

rebecca.483
27-03-2010, 19:34 PM
go with what jta says about it not having to say s21 they know better than I but the other points seem correct especially the unprotected deposit as if this isn't sorted the rest doesn't matter.

rebecca.483
27-03-2010, 19:41 PM
thanks jta I have done a few searches on sword of damocles before, there is as you say a lot of info it makes it hard to see what you are looking for sometimes.

Snorkerz
27-03-2010, 20:20 PM
Remember, right now the ball is in your court. Your landlord can not evict you ny time soon, and if you don't bring the deposit issue to his attention, then your tennure can last for months yet - basically until you find just the right place to move to.

Here's the scenario...

10th May, you haven't found somewhere nice to go, so LL starts s21 proceedings against you.

A week/fortnight later, you get court papers to which you reply stating that you were given less than 2 months notice, so the s21 is invalid.

LL issues new s21, this time giving correct notice. 2 months later, you haven't found somewhere nice so LL commences court proceedings again. A week/fortnight later, you get court papers to which you reply stating that your deposit wasn't protected, so the s21 is invalid.

Finally, LL issues third s21 - this time having protected or returned deposit - and 2 months later, he gets a possession date.

If you needed to string things along until the right place came up - that would give you about 9 months!

You probably wouldn't want to do this to your "decent" landlord, but it is worth knowing what your ultimate options are - you don't want to move into a dump do you?

mind the gap
27-03-2010, 20:49 PM
Snorkerz, you read my mind! I was just about to post exactly the same advice...:)

Worried T
27-03-2010, 20:51 PM
Thanks Snorkerz,

It's good to know that I have plenty of time. I presume that, at any point, I can still give my 1 months notice, provided I time this to end correctly on a rent day? And I could agree with the Landlord to surrender the property to him on a day of my choice, if he agreed and was willing to give me a pro-rata refund of that month's rent?

To be fair I really don't want to cause him any trouble, like I say he's always been fair with me and, when I spoke to his estate agent, he (the agent) said L had told him I was a good tenant and asked him to consider me first if any similar properties came onto their books. Having said that, I will keep the deposit issue up my sleeve for now.

My two concerns are, not finding somewhere in time, and having the invasion of privacy caused by potential buyers coming to view. It is the second one that worries me most as I am quite a private person and the thought of strangers poking around in my home fills me with dread. I really do not want random people in my bedroom and I don't want photos of it on the internet either (at least while my stuff is in there).

Thanks again for all your replies. I do appreciate your time and advice.

mind the gap
27-03-2010, 20:54 PM
Thanks Snorkerz,

It's good to know that I have plenty of time. I presume that, at any point, I can still give my 1 months notice, provided I time this to end correctly on a rent day? And I could agree with the Landlord to surrender the property to him on a day of my choice, if he agreed and was willing to give me a pro-rata refund of that month's rent?

To be fair I really don't want to cause him any trouble, like I say he's always been fair with me and, when I spoke to his estate agent, he (the agent) said L had told him I was a good tenant and asked him to consider me first if any similar properties came onto their books. Having said that, I will keep the deposit issue up my sleeve for now.

My two concerns are, not finding somewhere in time, and having the invasion of privacy caused by potential buyers coming to view. It is the second one that worries me most as I am quite a private person and the thought of strangers poking around in my home fills me with dread. I really do not want random people in my bedroom and I don't want photos of it on the internet either (at least while my stuff is in there).

Thanks again for all your replies. I do appreciate your time and advice.

Yes, you can move out with a month's notice to end on the last day of a rent payment period.

Don't agree to any viewings if you don't want to, or insist on being there.

Worried T
01-04-2010, 09:18 AM
Hi again,

Firstly thank you to everyone for taking the time to reply.

I would like to give an update.

There is some good news and some bad news. The good news is that I have been offered a new job in another part of the country (which is more money so I'm very happy). This will mean a move anyway, complete with a relocation package so I will be able to move out in the timescales given, so am not too concerned about the incorrect notice being served as it saves me serving my own notice to leave.

The bad news is that my mum is currently in hospital. I have also been really busy at work due to it being the tax year end. At the moment I have been leaving the house at 6m, going to my mums to walk her dog then going to work. I've been leaving work at 2pm to visit my mum in hospital and go back to her house to walk the dog again, then going back to work to try and keep on top of things. Fortunatly my mum's neighbour is very kind and is walking the dog in the evenings for me and is keeping an eye on the house.

My employer is understanding and have said if I cannot relocate straight away due to my mum's situation, I can work from a local office here until she's better. If necessery I will stay at her house for a few weeks (although the doctor says she should be back to normal then). My sister will also be back from holiday next week so there will be another family member close by if there are any emergancies.

Due to the situation with my mum, and work, I have told the landlord he cannot carry out any viewings at the moment. I have said that I will allow viewings as soon as my mum is better or work is not as busy. But my family, work and finding somewhere to live in London take priorty over helping him to sell his house.

I have not mentioned the issues with the notice period or deposit at this stage. They are in reserve in case he causes me any more problems.

Hopefully he will be understanding and wait until I confirm what can happen next. But if not then I shall point out the issue with the deposit and also change the locks. And he can wait until I have vacated the property before letting anyone view.

Charles19
01-04-2010, 11:58 AM
Thank you both.

However the conditions of him doing that are:

1) he either protects or returns my deposit immediatly

# Not a reasonable request. Why should he? Your tenancy would have stated details about deposits and this is not an issue for you to debate really. He should have protected it though in a suitable scheme and you can ask him why he has not done this and to get him to do it now...otherwise there is little he can do to remove you! So LL should agree to protect it now which is to your benefit and advisable.

2) that no photographs/viewings are to take place until the last month of my tenancy, and any such viewings should be arranged with 48 hours notice, at times specified by me and limited to not more than two occasions per week.

# Again why would you be unreasonable here? The LL wishes to sell up and probably has mortgage to pay off etc. After a good amount of time in this arrangement together why not part amicably? It is a reasonable request. Let them take pictures and market properly. You can dictate when the viewings are to be though. How about twice weekly - at time to suit you, e.g. Sat mornings 10-12pm and Wed Eves 6-9pm. The agent must give 24 hours notice that he intends to view as well. Fair?


How would I stand if a "For Sale" sign was erected? Last time I lived in a house with one of these, I was constantly getting callers at the door asking to view! Do I have any rights not to have a For Sale sign errected?

Probably a decent request to not have a sign. LL should agree.
Chas.

jeffrey
18-04-2010, 19:17 PM
L as owner cannot be prohibited from erecting a 'For Sale' sign, and the Letting Agreement probably reserves a right to do this anyway.

Snorkerz
18-04-2010, 19:26 PM
L as owner cannot be prohibited from erecting a 'For Sale' sign, and the Letting Agreement probably reserves a right to do this anyway.But if not in the agreement, does this not breach of tenants "exclusive occupation rights" which must surely encompass the external grounds where the sign will be erected.

jeffrey
18-04-2010, 19:37 PM
Yes. L cannot enter the premises to erect a sign unless the right to do is reserved.

Lawcruncher
18-04-2010, 20:24 PM
Yes, you can move out with a month's notice to end on the last day of a rent payment period.

Make that: "...to end on the last or first day of a period of the tenancy."

mind the gap
18-04-2010, 21:38 PM
Make that: "...to end on the last or first day of a period of the tenancy."

Apologies. I don't know why I wrote that.