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Ollie
19-03-2010, 12:05 PM
Hello, I've got a problem with my tenants,

- The Couple rent a room in a six bed house, they have been constantly loud and disruptive over the last 8 months of being in the house. They have also missed payments etc. Because of this I've decided to evict them!

- I've gone through these forums and given them a 'section 8' notice. Have i done the right thing? I'm worried that they won't go as they said i have the wrong form (they went to a housing-help place, Shelter).

- They have signed up to a 6 month AST tennancy.

- Also i have two further concerns, I didnt realise i needed to get a licence for the house being HMO, nor did I realise I need to protect their deposit!? If this goes to court, will i have to pay a stupid fine for this as well? Or will it not even come about?

Snorkerz
19-03-2010, 12:17 PM
By using section 8, you avoid the deposit and non-licensed HMO being a problem with your eviction, both would have invalidated a s21. What grounds have you cited on your s8 notice?

You should protect the deposit NOW and issue the tenants with the required documentation. This will prevent any action being brought against you for non-protection. https://www.depositprotection.com is free and you can pay the deposit in by card.

You can apply for a HMO licence at your local council. I believe the requirement is that you must have applied for one, not that you must actually have one. I suspect that will prevent that being a problem.

If they are being advised by Shelter, you will have to make sure all the processes are done correctly. They are unlikely to leave until you obtain your court order, or they may even wait for the bailiffs. Most ASTs allow you to recover the eviction fees from the deposit.

Ollie
19-03-2010, 12:28 PM
Thanks for your reply,

I have got grounds; 11, 12 & 14. All of which can be proved.

When/how should I apply for possession? (I've looked all over the internet and i can't believe theres no government advice for landlords yet loads for tenants advice)

I got a letter from Shelter saying that if i havent given them deposit protection within 14 days then they could sue me up to 3 times that amount! - So would it do alot of good ?

Thank you so much..

jeffrey
19-03-2010, 12:35 PM
Why not grounds 8 and 10?
Anyway, all that you need to do (no Notice period affects this, if you include g14) is to apply to Court.

Ollie
19-03-2010, 12:44 PM
They only owe 2 weeks. Their payment is random and always late. However up to two weeks ago, they had been paying on time. The main reason for me evicting them is their constant brutal arguments. Police to the house etc.

- Whats a g14?
- Do I not need to wait two weeks after sending the section 8 to apply for court?

Thanks for your reply!

jeffrey
19-03-2010, 12:55 PM
They only owe 2 weeks. Their payment is random and always late. However up to two weeks ago, they had been paying on time. The main reason for me evicting them is their constant brutal arguments. Police to the house etc.

- Whats a g14?
- Do I not need to wait two weeks after sending the section 8 to apply for court?

Thanks for your reply!
A. If there is any unpaid rent, use g10.
B. G14 is one that you said that you're using; so how come you don't know what it is?
C. The Notice period is two months or two weeks or nothing. It depends on what combination of grounds is used. You're using g14, with others; so no Notice period applies.

Ollie
19-03-2010, 13:07 PM
Oh i thought you ment g14 is a paper, i get it now, 'g stands for ground. Silly me.

I've given them two weeks, untill the 28th March. How would I apply to the court for possession? And how long do you think it would take ?

Do I apply for possession, then the Court looks at the evidence and my claim, then send out balifs? and does that happen stright away or is it like a further 2 week later for balifs to come. Also, do i pay for the baliffs or? or does the tenant get a bill for it all (inc my court fee's?)

Sorry to bore you with all my questions! Thank you so much for your time!

jeffrey
19-03-2010, 13:42 PM
To clarify: what grounds are you using?

Ollie
19-03-2010, 13:47 PM
Ground 11, 12 & 14

jeffrey
19-03-2010, 13:50 PM
Ground 11, 12 & 14
So, as I've already posted, you simply need to serve s.8 Notice and- next day- you're free to institute proceedings. No "two-week" delay is necessary.

Paul Gibbs
19-03-2010, 13:52 PM
If ou are only using grounds 11,12, and 14 these are discretionary grounds.

You would need to wait for the section 8 notice to expire, and then issue proceedings (form N5 and N119).

I should point out now that unless a mandatory ground applies when you serve the notice (typically ground 8) then I think you are at a real risk that a possession order will not be granted.

Once you issue a claim the court will list a hearing. T will be required to file a defence in advance of the hearing. At the hearing the court will have to decide whether it is reasonable to make a possession order.

Ollie
19-03-2010, 14:02 PM
Okay so I'll wait to the 28th March, then apply for court possession?
Sorry what do you mean when you say 'unless a mandatory ground applies when you serve the notice' ? Do you mean if i can't prove ground 11,12 & 14?

I have bank statements to prove ground 11, I can provide whitness statements and police should have records to prove ground 14

So I should 'win' right?

jeffrey
19-03-2010, 14:15 PM
You would need to wait for the section 8 notice to expire
No. There is no notice period if g14 is used, alone or with others.

Ollie
19-03-2010, 14:15 PM
Also, thinking outside the box.... what happens if I just decide to live there? Move in one of the unlet room, surly ive got more rights?

Snorkerz
19-03-2010, 15:12 PM
In answer to your last question first - you would have no extra rights if you moved into the property - your tenants were given an AST, which became a SPT - there is no simple way to change this.

With Section 8 - if any of the grounds 1 to 8 are provable, the judge HAS to give you a possession order. With grounds 9 onwards, the judge MAY give you a possession order.

If you want guaranteed possesion, you will have to use section 21 - but before that you must protect the deposit and register your HMO or Shelter will advise the tenant (correctly) that the s21 notice is invalid.

As you have already been told, there is no 'waiting period' on a section 8 notice which incorporates ground 14 - so you can apply to the court for possession today. The cheapest way is via the PCOL website (google PCOL) where the cost is £100.

Presuming you get your possession order, do not forget that even with that, if the tenants do not leave of their own free will, you can not force them out, you will have to employ court bailiffs to do so.

Further to my earlier post about the tenant being liable for these costs - remember you can't take the money from the deposit unless a) the tenancy agreement gives you that right AND b) the deposit is protected.

Ollie
20-03-2010, 12:51 PM
Thanks for your reply,

So if i serve them the section 21 and don't protect their deposit and i don't get a HMO license? Will Shelter say to them to stay there rent free for as long as they want? .... I'd rarther change the locks and throw their stuff out on the street, then deal with the consequences.....

Plus I got a letter from Shelter saying the section 21 notice would be invalid due to the non protection of the deposit.... but then also said it would continue to be invalid as i needed to do it within 14 days of them moving in! ... So am I stuck!?

Also I want to point out that as I'm renting the other rooms in the house, I'm loosing ALOT of money as everyones slowly moving out because of them, I now just want to get them out no matter what!

I can't believe how stupid the government is !

Mrs Mug
20-03-2010, 14:30 PM
I'd rarther change the locks and throw their stuff out on the street, then deal with the consequences.....

That would be classed as illegal eviction, and the police would let them straight back into your property.

Illegal Eviction and Harassment are Criminal Offences and the maximum penalty in a Crown Court is an unlimited fine and two years’ imprisonment.

Here's an example of the consequences for a landlord convicted of illegal eviction;

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=25168&highlight=uncle+tony

Snorkerz
20-03-2010, 15:08 PM
Thanks for your reply,

So if i serve them the section 21 and don't protect their deposit and i don't get a HMO license? Will Shelter say to them to stay there rent free for as long as they want? .... I'd rarther change the locks and throw their stuff out on the street, then deal with the consequences..... As has already been said, Illegal Eviction would not work - Police would let them back in - and you would end up with a criminal record.
Plus I got a letter from Shelter saying the section 21 notice would be invalid due to the non protection of the deposit.... but then also said it would continue to be invalid as i needed to do it within 14 days of them moving in! ... So am I stuck!?No, either you or Shelter are misunderstanding the situation. A s21 issued while the deposit is not protected will be invalid. The deposit should be protected within 14 days. These 2 facts are correct. HOWEVER, if you re-issue the s21 once the deposit IS protected, the fact that it was protected late will not affect the validity of the s21.

Ollie
21-03-2010, 09:36 AM
Okay, so just to recap!


1) I'll serve a section21 form (jus incase the s8 doesn't work); However do I still inform them that the s8 still stands?

2) I'll wait untill the two week notice peroid is up (on the 28th - I want to see if we can end this outside of court).

3) If nothing happens and they are still there, then I'll apply to the court for possession.

4) a) the court rules in my favour (How long untill the baliffs come?)
b) the court rules agaisn't me (Do i wait for the s21 to expire?)


Thanks ...

Snorkerz
21-03-2010, 10:28 AM
Okay, so just to recap!


1) I'll serve a section21 form (jus incase the s8 doesn't work); However do I still inform them that the s8 still stands?No need to notify them anything about the s8 - it just remains valid
2) I'll wait untill the two week notice peroid is up (on the 28th - I want to see if we can end this outside of court).

3) If nothing happens and they are still there, then I'll apply to the court for possession.

4) a) the court rules in my favour (How long untill the baliffs come?)Judge will give them min 14 days to leave. If they don't leave, you have to request bailiffs then - around 3 more weeks

b) the court rules agaisn't me (Do i wait for the s21 to expire?)Yes, your s21 notice must expire before you can start proceedings on it - however, the s8 process will probably cover that period, so if it fails, you should be ready to go with the s21.

justaboutsane
21-03-2010, 16:40 PM
Here is what you should do in this order!

Go to MCOL and issue possession proceedings based on section 8

Protect deposit.

Give information relating to where deposit is held

Issue section 21 (as a back up)

Get HMO Registered.

You are not guaranteed a "Win" based on he grounds of the section 8 issued, evidence or not.

tom999
21-03-2010, 17:00 PM
Go to MCOL and issue possession proceedings based on section 8You may mean PCOL (https://www.possessionclaim.gov.uk/pcol/).



Protect deposit.

Give information relating to where deposit is held

Issue section 21 (as a back up)

Get HMO Registered.

Before serving a s.21, the deposit must be protected; and, a licensable HMO must be registered.

westminster
21-03-2010, 19:19 PM
I got a letter from Shelter saying that if i havent given them deposit protection within 14 days then they could sue me up to 3 times that amount!



Plus I got a letter from Shelter saying the section 21 notice would be invalid due to the non protection of the deposit.... but then also said it would continue to be invalid as i needed to do it within 14 days of them moving in! ... So am I stuck!?

Shelter is wrong. You can protect the deposit late without any consequences, i.e. no penalty, IF you use the custodial scheme -
http://www.depositprotection.com/

This is because of a recent high court ruling -
http://blog.painsmith.co.uk/2010/02/12/high-court-decision-on-tdp/

Do not use one of the two other schemes (mydeposits, TDS).

As soon as you have protected the deposit AND provided the tenant with the prescribed information - template here -
https://www.depositprotection.com/public/documentlibrary/agentinfo.aspx

then after that you can serve a s.21 notice and it will be valid (assuming you've also applied for an HMO licence).

Note that the tenant does not have to sign the prescribed information. But you do need evidence that it was sent, so keep a copy, and when you post it get a free certificate of posting from the post office.

I also recommend you visit this forum frequently to learn about the legalities of renting. You could get into serious trouble through ignorance.

jeffrey
21-03-2010, 19:21 PM
2) I'll wait untill the two week notice peroid is up.
Do you still not understand? There is, as I've posted 199 999 times, no required Notice period under g14. Geddit?

Snorkerz
21-03-2010, 19:32 PM
Do you still not understand? There is, as I've posted 199 999 times, no required Notice period under g14. Geddit?Jeffrey, I think OP is waiting 2 weeks not because he has to, but because he is hoping against hope that something can be resolved (without paying the court fee?)

jeffrey
21-03-2010, 19:34 PM
Aha- OK, that makes sense.

Ollie
24-03-2010, 18:49 PM
ok, understand all this now.
One final question. under what circumstances (however improbable) is it possible to legally evict a tenant immediately, eg prison sentence, assault of the landlord or other tenants, etc...

mind the gap
24-03-2010, 19:02 PM
ok, understand all this now.
One final question. under what circumstances (however improbable) is it possible to legally evict a tenant immediately, eg prison sentence, assault of the landlord or other tenants, etc...
There are no circumstances in which you can evict a tenant immediately, but if your tenant assaults you or your other tenants, call the police. They obviously have the power to remove him. You do not; if you attempt to do so without a court order, you may be charged with illegal eviction and end up in prison yourself.

Ollie
24-03-2010, 19:14 PM
You say 'remove him' - but can they go back in?

mind the gap
24-03-2010, 19:21 PM
You say 'remove him' - but can they go back in?

Can who go back in where?

Ollie
24-03-2010, 19:24 PM
Once the police have removed him/them. Are they allowed to go back in the house or is it an automatic eviction?

mind the gap
24-03-2010, 19:35 PM
Once the police have removed him/them. Are they allowed to go back in the house or is it an automatic eviction?

I am assuming that by 'they' you mean the tenant and not the police.

The short answer is that I am not sure. It may depend on the seriousness of any charges which are brought against him by the police as a result of what he has done.

Perhaps others can add to this.

Snorkerz
24-03-2010, 19:46 PM
I can't add any definitive info, but I think that the tenancy would still exist, so the tenant could return as soon as the police released him/her. It would then be up to the landlord to try to gain possession under s8 g14 - I suspect this is why g14 doesn't need any notice period.

Maybe in the right circumstances, a solicitor could get an emergency hearing and do the s8 the same day? I know they do do emergency hearings (eg illegal eviction) so maybe this would be feasible.

mind the gap
24-03-2010, 19:52 PM
I can't add any definitive info, but I think that the tenancy would still exist, so the tenant could return as soon as the police released him/her. It would then be up to the landlord to try to gain possession under s8 g14 - I suspect this is why g14 doesn't need any notice period.

Maybe in the right circumstances, a solicitor could get an emergency hearing and do the s8 the same day? I know they do do emergency hearings (eg illegal eviction) so maybe this would be feasible.
Yes, I agree, although even a court order could not be instantaneously enforced if T refused to budge - you'd have to instruct bailiffs, wouldn't you?

I think emergency injunctions can be obtained, too (e.g. when vulnerable people are at risk), but I'm not familiar with the procedure by which they are granted.

Ollie
09-04-2010, 22:21 PM
Hi, I'm back. Unfortunatly this issue hasn't been resolved and I'll fill you in with what happend!

As you know i hadn't protected T deposit nor do I have a license for my HMO property (Although I've got someone from the council issuing me with my HMO soon!)

Me and the T talked things through and arrange for them to pay whilst living there, and I would help them all I could with getting them all the info they need to the council (as they were wanting a council place)

I lost afew weeks on the section 21 notice as I needed to protect their deposit.

The biggest problem is, The couple don't keep me informed and it doesn't seem like they are proactive in finding another place, nor are they proactive in paying rent!!

So they currrently owe 6 weeks rent (£750 in arrears) and the section 21 runs out on the 31 May.

I want them to pay me!, I need them to ... is the best thing to wait till the s21 expires? then sue them if they havent paid?
Or do i apply for a section 8?.... but correct me if i'm wrong but doesnt that mean i dont get anything?

HELP! Thanks!

mind the gap
09-04-2010, 22:33 PM
Hi, I'm back. Unfortunatly this issue hasn't been resolved and I'll fill you in with what happend!

As you know i hadn't protected T deposit nor do I have a license for my HMO property (Although I've got someone from the council issuing me with my HMO soon!)

Me and the T talked things through and arrange for them to pay whilst living there, and I would help them all I could with getting them all the info they need to the council (as they were wanting a council place)

I lost afew weeks on the section 21 notice as I needed to protect their deposit.

The biggest problem is, The couple don't keep me informed and it doesn't seem like they are proactive in finding another place, nor are they proactive in paying rent!!

So they currrently owe 6 weeks rent (£750 in arrears) and the section 21 runs out on the 31 May.

I want them to pay me!, I need them to ... is the best thing to wait till the s21 expires? then sue them if they havent paid?
Or do i apply for a section 8?.... but correct me if i'm wrong but doesnt that mean i dont get anything?

HELP! Thanks!
A belt and braces approach would be to serve a section 8 ground 8 (as well as your s21) notice as soon as the rent owed reaches two months' worth. That gives them 14 days to vacate and you can apply for a court order straight away.

When does the s21 notice expire?

All these notices do is to give your T notice that you want them to move out. If they fail to do so, you will need to obtain a court order and instruct bailiffs if necessary. This process does not in itself mean you will get any of the rent arrears out of them but you can apply for a county court judgement against them for the money, which you then have to enforce. If they are unemployed and do not have the means to pay, the chances are you will not see it. If they are employed you can apply for an attachment of earnings order, I believe. This makes them pay it back, but it might only be 50p er week - it depends what the judge thinks they can afford.

Ollie
09-04-2010, 22:43 PM
A belt and braces approach would be to serve a section 8 ground 8 (as well as your s21) notice as soon as the rent owed reaches two months' worth. That gives them 14 days to vacate and you can apply for a court order straight away.

thank you for your reply.

So sorry whats the process?

I wait for them to owe 2 months, then i send a section 8, ground 8 to HMC? then the HMC gives them a letter however long later saying they have two weeks to leave. And a court order is so i can get my money back, right?

mind the gap
09-04-2010, 22:51 PM
thank you for your reply.

So sorry whats the process?

I wait for them to owe 2 months, then i send a section 8, ground 8 to HMC? then the HMC gives them a letter however long later saying they have two weeks to leave. And a court order is so i can get my money back, right?

Read this about section 8 notices:
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=27470

A court order (for possession) is what you will get assuming the judge is satisfied you have served your s8 or s21 correctly.

A county court judgement is what will be awarded against your T if he does not pay you the rent arrears. The court will not 'magic' the money for you though - you have to enforce the judgement using whatever legal means you think will be effective. (Instruct debt collectors, etc).

An attachment of earnings order is as I have described above.

Lawcruncher
09-04-2010, 23:15 PM
Something like the imposition of a bail condition that someone should not return to a property or an injunction ordering him not to does not bring a tenancy to an end; the condition or injunction could be lifted. The Housing Act 1988 is quite clear: a landlord may only bring an assured tenancy to an end by a court order.

Ollie
14-04-2010, 15:09 PM
Hello, thank you for your replies. I've reacted to them and they said they will pay half their rent on friday (if they actually do, i dont know!), but they seem like they will!

Anyways - because they went to the council, i got a letter from the council saying i need a HMO and will be inspected ... I've just had my inspection, and the lady from the council said I need a heap of fire safety stuff, well OTT like back up lights in all comunal areas (£££!), A fire alert board which indicates which room the fire is in (£££!) plus many other stupid little things.

I knew i had to pay £860 for the licence and I understood i would proberly need to change somethings, i thought it would cost £1500 tops! - However this is looking like £6,000!! - I don't know exactly the extend intill she produces her report, but surly thats not right!?

I'd rarther sell!

mind the gap
14-04-2010, 15:13 PM
It sounds as though that might be the best option if you cannot be professional about requirements which are designed to safeguard tenants' lives in HMOs. There are good reasons for all of them. Which regulations do you consider 'stupid. exactly?

Ollie
14-04-2010, 15:43 PM
most of them are. Thing is, when it comes to safety, there has to be a cut off point. For example, its like having a rule: no one is allowed to drive a car ... because you may crash!

Its safety vs economics... in reality, why can't one bedroom lead onto the breakfast room... the inspector replied because if that breakfast room is on fire, the tenant can't escape... well, fair enough, but no.. rubbish! all bedrooms lead onto another room or a landing... and what about if the landing is on fire?

another example - why do i need back up lights?... I asked her, because if there was a fire and the electric went off, there was another power up for the lights.... okay fair enough, but no.... rubbish!

anyways .... the orginal query: Is 6,000 pounds right ? surly thats too much!?

Snorkerz
14-04-2010, 15:49 PM
Is 6,000 pounds right ? surly thats too much!?Depends on what works are required, which contractor you use, and even, to a degree, where in the country you are.

I know you are cross about these needs - but they are legal requirements that should have been sorted out yonks ago. You came to the forum with a mess - received help and guidance which will resolve it - your new 'bill' is a mess that we can't help you with, but it was caused - I'm afraid to say - by the same ignorance that caused your first problem. I can think of no-one who would honestly say that it is wise to start up a business - any business, not just an HMO - without investigating the costs and responsibilities. The HMO regs have been around for 4 years now so ignorance is not really an excuse.