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londongirl
13-03-2010, 09:43 AM
Good morning everyone, so I have woken up this morning not to be defeated by yesterdays events ( section 8 hearing adjourned until 21st June). We still have the section 21 route as the tenancy is due to end 29th May. Please can you let me know what court forms I need to prepare for the section 21 proceedings. I have no doubt this troublesome tenant will try to stick it out until the bitter end so I am just getting myself well prepared for this. Is there anything I need to consider when prepapring the court papers and also prpeparing for the hearing.

Thank you Londongirl

tom999
13-03-2010, 10:07 AM
If you already have an ongoing case for a possession order (PO) using one route (Section 8), then I believe that you cannot apply for a PO using another route (Section 21).

Do as advised by DJB in counter claim (http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=197785#post197785). Only if this case fails, take the s.21 route.

Note: Please continue with your previous thread, and not start multiple threads on the same topic.

ram
13-03-2010, 10:07 AM
So that we and others reading the saga, would it not be better to, rather than starting a new post here, where there is no previous history on this new post, to see the problems, that you add todays new post to one of your other posts, --- such as the counter claim post ?

Makes it easier for people who have not long been a member, or just joining today to see the history at a glance. ?

Am just trying to make it easier for you to get the answers you are looking for.

ram
13-03-2010, 11:19 AM
Counter claim Post is at
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=26839

londongirl
13-03-2010, 12:18 PM
point taken Ram, can anyone tell me how I join all the threads?

Tom999, the ft does not end until the 29th May, are you saying that I cannot start section 21 court proceedings on that date unless I withdraw my section8?

thanks Londongirl

londongirl
13-03-2010, 12:51 PM
Tom999, some further thoughts on your advice re section21, I thought a section 21 notice was a landlords way of facilitating possesion of the property at the end of the fixed term and therefore would run alogside any section 8. I cannot withdraw my section 8 now because there is a counterclaim and if I do not defend it the ruling will be made against me with costs. the date scheduled for that hearing is the 21st June. I know that the tenant is not going to move out at the end of her FT which is the 29th May. to wait for judgement on the 21st before I can start proceedings for section21 means adding another months delay. I am sure I will not get a hearing before the 21st June for the section 21 so if for any reason the judgement went against me on the 21st at least I would have another hearing date for the section 21

Thanks Londongirl

tom999
13-03-2010, 12:57 PM
I thought a section 21 notice was a landlords way of facilitating possesion of the property at the end of the fixed term and therefore would run alogside any section 8.A LL can serve a s.21 at the same time as a s.8 notice. You can apply for a court order after a valid s.21 notice has expired, and even obtain a court order in the fixed term, but this cannot be enforced until after the initial 6 months of the fixed term.

AFAIK, a LL cannot apply for two concurrent court orders. As has been mentioned, if you have already applied for a court order via s.8, you cannot apply for another via s.21.

If a s.21 notice has already been served, then focus on the s.8 claim as in post #2.

londongirl
13-03-2010, 13:11 PM
thanks Tom999, who would be a LL eh!!

Londongirl

davidjohnbutton
13-03-2010, 18:30 PM
As far as I know, there is nothing to stop you from proceeding with a S21 claim and succeeding with that one, but it would not erase the S8 case you have already started and for which there is a counterclaim.

A separate S21 claim is based on the end of the tenancy - provided you protected any deposit that required such, and have served a S21 notice correctly, then the PO is decided without a hearing unless one of the parties requested one. There is no facility to counterclaim money on a S21 possession like there is on S8 because there is no money judgment at the end of it, just the possession order.

londongirl
14-03-2010, 07:54 AM
Thanks Davidjohnbutton.

the fixed term expires on the 29th May and the section 21 notice expires on 31st May. I have two questions.


if we pursue the section 8 where the hearing has been scheduled for June. if worse case scenario judgement goes against me and I wanted to rely on the section 21 to evict the tenant, would the fact that the section 21 expires on the 31st meant that I would have to serve notice again or is the expiry date there to dictate at what date I can commence proceedings from.


I note that we do not have to have a hearing for a section 21, I would not necessarily request one but the tenant probably will, she does not want to move out of the property she has made it quite clear. therefore how long would it take for a judgement decison without a hearing, and how long would it take with a hearing

thank you all very much

Londongirl

tom999
14-03-2010, 08:12 AM
if we pursue the section 8 where the hearing has been scheduled for June. if worse case scenario judgement goes against me and I wanted to rely on the section 21 to evict the tenant, would the fact that the section 21 expires on the 31st meant that I would have to serve notice again or is the expiry date there to dictate at what date I can commence proceedings from.If the s.8 fails, then simply apply for a court order* under the s.21 route, if a valid s.21 notice has already been served (no need to re-serve) and expired.


I note that we do not have to have a hearing for a section 21, I would not necessarily request one but the tenant probably will, she does not want to move out of the property she has made it quite clear. therefore how long would it take for a judgement decison without a hearing, and how long would it take with a hearingThere is no hearing under the accelerated possession procedure, unless the tenant defends. The tenant has 14 days to defend after the claimant (landlord) makes a possession claim. The judge will typically make a decision within 14-28 days after this period (if tenant does not defend). If the tenant does defend, then there may be a court hearing; the time period for this can vary, depending on how busy the courts are, but could typically be anything up to 3 months.

* under the (s.21) accelerated possession procedure, you will need to submit 3 bundles (including form N5B) to the local County Court with the approriate fee.

londongirl
14-03-2010, 08:19 AM
thanks tom999

The section 21 has provided the tenant with two month notice that I want her to give up posession of the property on or before the 29th may, the expiry date of the section 21 as previously mentioned is the 31st may. the section 21 was hand delivered and given to the tenant, deposit protected.

would that comply with what is consdered to be a valid section 21?

thanks Londongirl

tom999
14-03-2010, 08:32 AM
Is the tenancy an AST in England or Wales?
What date did the tenancy start?
What date was the s.21 notice served?
When is rent paid (weekly, monthly, etc.)?
Do you have proof of s.21 service, e.g. by an independent witness?
If the property is a licensable HMO, is it licensed?

londongirl
14-03-2010, 08:57 AM
1. yes
2. 7th sept 09
3.22nd feb
4. monthly
5. yes
6. n/a

thanks Londongirl

tom999
14-03-2010, 09:28 AM
If a s.21(1)(b) notice was served on the tenant on 22nd Feb 2010, then the possession date cannot be sooner than 29th May 2010 (last day of fixed term) and have a minimum length of notice of two calendar months, so the s.21 expiry date of 31st May 2010 seems correct.

I noticed that the fixed term of the tenancy seems to be for 8 months and 23 days. It's more common to keep fixed terms to whole periods, i.e. 6, 9 or 12 months (e.g. 7th Sept 09 - 6th Aug 2010), if rent paid monthly.

londongirl
14-03-2010, 09:43 AM
I know the tenant was orginally supposed to move in on the 1st, however did not move in until the 7th

thanks Londongirl