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qwerty89
21-02-2010, 20:08 PM
I have an elderly (65) relative - in law who has somehow ended up in my empty flat while we were trying to start renovation. He is not paying rent.

There was no verbal agreement for him to stay, he was just storing his stuff there while away on a long trip. He just moved in on his return as we had given him the keys to get his stuff.

Have asked him nicely to move out, but is refusing......

as he has no rights, can I go in and change the locks while he is out?

jeffrey
21-02-2010, 21:04 PM
You did not grant any letting to him, You did not ever allow him into occupation. He is therefore a trespasser. Sue him for trespass.

ram
22-02-2010, 10:52 AM
as he has no rights, can I go in and change the locks while he is out?

Removing relatives is always hard, because they think a bond / relationship extends betwen relatives, how ever far removed the relative is. ( in law / cousin ). And some will abuse that relationship.

I would change the locks, but change the locks when he is out, then tell him immediately, by phone or text that the locks have been changed, as if it's easy for you to change the locks, giving him advance notice that he cannot stay there and you are changing the locks, could give him the opportunity to change the locks himself, thereby denying you access to your own flat ( Yes it does happen ).

Once in control of your own property ( locks changed ) it is then easier to say. " Why do you want to gain access, we will return your stuff to your house, tell us when you will be in" -- otherwise once he gains access, he could just sit down and refuse to move !. Don't let him in if you are there.

Who is paying for the gas and electric he is using ? ( just a thought ) He is taking the "piss", change the locks, and relatives like that should not be spoken to again afterwards.

Best of luck.

quarterday
22-02-2010, 11:04 AM
Try to meet with him and put it to him nicely that if he doesnt go of his own accord you will be forced into litigation. Confirm your position in writing giving him seven days before instructing solicitors.

In your shoes I might say that I had intended to lease the property and entirely without prejudice to the requirement that he leaves forthwith that you would consider a formal letting to him....

ram
22-02-2010, 14:14 PM
Try to meet with him: You would consider a formal letting to him....

To:- qwerty89

Irrespective of whether you intend to use the flat for yourself or rent it out, issues can sometimes be clouded because this is a "Landlordzone".

If someone has decided to stay at YOUR flat, univited, and is intent on staying there and refuses to go, NO way do you offer him a tenancy. He is a Trespasser, and the police should be called.

Tell you what, give me your address, or anyone elses on here, I will invite myself in, and refuse to leave. Then hope I am offered a tenancy ( ast ) for your spare bedroom.

This is not a tenancy / Landlord law matter, but a tresspass matter. Storage facilities as a member of the family were given. Now you are returning to redecorate etc, so his belongings go. He has no rights. Forget litigation, he is a trespasser, so call the police, but go there when he is in, and then call police while you are in the flat ( 999 / 112 )

Your verbal agreement was he could store some "stuff" until you returned, you have now returned. All you need to say is you returned, found out he was sleeping there, which is unacceptable, and he refuses to leave.

Forget landlords / tenancies . This is tresspass.

qwerty89
23-02-2010, 09:53 AM
Thanks guys, that puts my mind at rest. This man is really pushing his luck, he has taken possession of my flat, which is my income and livelihood. I am in mortgage arrears because its not rented....

He has the cheek to tell me I have no right to visit my flat while he is there!!

The fact is he knows that the flat is not in my name but in my husband's, (his brother) but he is out of the country for a few months, and I am left to sort out this mess!!

Will I still be in a position to try and change the locks in his absence, what if he calls the poilce on me and ask's me to produce documents? I have always managed the flat rentals in the past without any problems, this only occured cos it was empty for renovation......

JK0
23-02-2010, 09:59 AM
Can he produce any documents to say that he has the right to stay there?

Also, what on earth does your husband think about this? Are you estranged, and so the brother is trying to 'reclaim' family property?

qwerty89
23-02-2010, 10:04 AM
no, not that I am aware of, but he may have been paying utility bills, and I think has even applied for council tax? I know he has all his personal post delivered there like pension and bank statements....

I was getting empty property rebate on the council tax for six months so did not check until recently......

qwerty89
23-02-2010, 11:01 AM
Can he produce any documents to say that he has the right to stay there?

Also, what on earth does your husband think about this? Are you estranged, and so the brother is trying to 'reclaim' family property?

no not estranged, he is away abroad to sort out property nightmares there!! This property was only brought in 2007 and the deposit for it came from the re-mortgage of our joint house, we have been married for over 20 years now so the brother has no rights whatsoever....:(

My husband has also tried reasoning with this man, but he is not listening to reason, basically my husband owes his brother some money, and he is now using this as an excuse to force the money out of us. But we are stuck as we are living hand to mouth cos of negative income.....

we cannot pay him back until the flat starts bringin in rent!!

ram
23-02-2010, 11:36 AM
we cannot pay him back until the flat starts bringin in rent!!

Tresspass and owing the brother money are two different things, but it makes it clearer as to why the trespass occured..

Borrow money, pay him back, then force him out. Or force him out ( physically ) then pay him back / let him sue you for the money.

So it's not realy tresspass, He is pissed off because you owe him money, and is making you suffer, and some may say, serves you right. But, unless you can guarantee to pay him back, he wont move out, BUT, it's your flat, and it's easy to prove, you have the lease / deeds / bill of sale / whatever you have, so as to get him out, and if those are with your husband, he can fax / mail them to you -- simple :) ( call the police when you have the documents ) but assure the brother you guarantee to pay him back, but also say you will have him removed for trespass, because if you don't he will never get his money back.

You can easily say the owner is abroard and he authorises you ( he can send you a fax / letter ) to carryout the the removal of the trespasser.

Your action is to 1) remove a trespasser from your property. 2) sort out ( afterwards ) the money you owe him. in that order. He has every right to sue you for monies owed, but not to steal your property ( be it a flat or a car or T.V. )

( negative income never bothers me, as I would never pay more than a house was worth, not market values, but actual worth. Long story, and not lets get involed in that argument )

Good luck in this family dispute, the hardest ones to resolve !
R.a.M.

qwerty89
23-02-2010, 11:44 AM
[QUOTE=ram;193700]
Borrow money, pay him back, then force him out. Or force him out ( physically ) then pay him back / let him sue you for the money.

How do I force him out? the police won't get involved, they say its a civil matter and I need to get a court orde, I don't have the funds to do that.

I need the the cheapest solution.....

jeffrey
23-02-2010, 12:57 PM
Yes, you do need a [civil] Court Order. Perhaps seek a 'no win, no fee' solicitor, as the Defendant ought to be mad to pay both sides' fees anyway.

JK0
23-02-2010, 12:58 PM
I think I have a simple solution to both problems:

Work out how long the debt will take to be repaid by the rental payments you would otherwise have received. If it is less than 3 years, send the brother a tenancy agreement for that amount of time and rent. Also send him a section 21 giving notice to leave on that date.

Enclose a letter explaining that if he wishes to have the flat in lieu of the debt the deal has to be formalised. Explain that by signing the tenancy, he is agreeing what you suggest. Ask him to sign letter to indicate agreement and return to you.

This will save 'face' on both sides, and should restore good relations with hubby's family.

Is that sensible?

ram
23-02-2010, 13:09 PM
How do I force him out? the police won't get involved, they say its a civil matter and I need to get a court orde, I don't have the funds to do that.

I need the the cheapest solution.....

Regarding above post, you don't want a tenant who is behaving the way he is now. You owe him money and he is quite capable of sueing you. You need to redecorate, not have a trespasser.

======

I have had police round to remove an unwanted visitor but you probably complicated the matter telling the police about renting / tenancies, and of course they don't want to get involved in that instance.

I see no reason why you can't call the police to say there is a trespasser in your home, and he refuses to leave, and you are in fear of what may happen when you try to escort the trespasser to the front door, and you want a police officer present to ensure there is no breach of the peace. ( he is trespassing )

I too have had Police saying "it's not their job" but if you write to the police station, and also send copy to "the home office" then that is SURE of a reply from them, I sent the letter ( shown below **), which resulted in a police officer from local station telephoning me. ( In your case, if they phone you, dont mention tenancies / rent, - just that he stored stuff, but is now tresspassing )

I have even sent police round to letting agents, because they are notorious for withholding information to any Managing company ( as opposed to Managing Agents ) In another letter ( same incident ) because letting agents refused to give a forwarding address, I wrote the following, whereby they then visited the letting agents.
"I hereby accuse xxxxxx and Co of xxxxxxxx Street xxxxxxx of aiding and abetting , in this case of Trespass and illegal entry"

================================
**

To :-
Inspector of Police, xxxxx Police station
xxxxxx Road, xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx

c.c. The Home office.

I am deeply concerned that trespass and burglary is rife and your department are allowing this to go unchecked.

I visited your station this week, and was basically told to go away and anyone can enter our premises without fear of prosecution. ( qwerty89, they had a key ) This I find totally unacceptable from a Police force.

Enclosed is my report of the situation which you did not keep, and told me to go away as you would not do anything about the matter.

For your files, are pertinent extracts from “The Theft Act 1968” and “Postal Services Act 2000” which it seems, you are oblivious to. ( this is not relevent to qwerty89 )

Please re-read my complaint and act upon the enclosed laws. ( on reverse of this ) My other complaint is that the car mentioned has a false keepers address record.

We know one of the trespassers is a “Police Officer” -- is this why you told me to “Go away” ??????

I am not often at xxxxxxxxxx , so please don’t call round without first assertaining that I am free that day. Tel xxxxxx or Mobile xxxx

Your resultant feedback that you have apprehended these 2 ( Try surname of xxxxxxxx ) within next 5 days will be appreciated

Thank you.

================================
================================


Good luck ...
R.a.M.

Lawcruncher
23-02-2010, 13:48 PM
The only time you can eject a trespasser without a court order is when you are resident in the property. So, if you come home from the shops, or even holiday, and find someone on the sofa you can eject him using reasonable force. Your relative is not in that situation and so you need a court order. In any event there has to be doubt as to whether he is a trespasser since you gave him a key. As has been said, family situations can be difficult to assess legally as it can depend on whether there was ever an intention to enter into legal relations. Do not waste time involving the police. They will tell you it is a civil matter and they will be right.

qwerty89
16-05-2010, 11:52 AM
we want possession of our property which a family member has taken over. He has a tennancy agreement which is invalid as we do not have a copy of this, he has the one and only original.
We do not consider the agreement as valid but he is going to use it. What section would be appropraite to serve?
btw, he has paid no rent or deposit, it was just a verbal agreement that he could store belongings in one room of our then empty property for a few weeks but it has somehow dragged to nearly 12 months by him asking and pleading for more time. Now he has taken over the whole flat completely and refuses us entry.
We have asked him verbally to leave and emailed him several times to leave. Last week we posted him a letter to vacate in 14 days and threatened legal action if he did not. Looks like he will not leave, so we want to know the best action to take. thanks for your advice.

thesaint
16-05-2010, 11:55 AM
we want possession of our property which a family member has taken over. He has a tennancy agreement which is invalid as we do not have a copy of this, he has the one and only original.
We do not consider the agreement as valid but he is going to use it. What section would be appropraite to serve?


His agreement is valid.



btw, he has paid no rent or deposit, it was just a verbal agreement that he could store belongings in one room of our then empty property for a few weeks but it has somehow dragged to nearly 12 months by him asking and pleading for more time. Now he has taken over the whole flat completely and refuses us entry.
We have asked him verbally to leave and emailed him several times to leave. Last week we posted him a letter to vacate in 14 days and threatened legal action if he did not. Looks like he will not leave, so we want to know the best action to take. thanks for your advice.

Serve both notices.
Have any of the owners ever lived at he property?

jta
16-05-2010, 12:00 PM
If there has been NO rent or deposit paid then there is no tenancy agreement, that makes him an unauthorised occupant. He's squatting, do not accept any rent from him or you will actually create a tenancy.

qwerty89
16-05-2010, 12:12 PM
If we serve both notices, the s8 is for two weeks, and s21 for two months. also for s8 do i have to provide a copy of the agreement as we don't have this, and he is not co-operating with us. This is completely new to us, we have never had to go this far before...

oh and yes we did live there at one point, and we now want to let one room to our son who is working in the area, but the above is refusing us entry.

Snorkerz
16-05-2010, 12:21 PM
As JTA says, there is no tenancy because no rent has been accepted. As it is not an AST, then s8 & s21 are un-necessary.

As his status is "squatter", this link might help. http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/squatters.htm

westminster
16-05-2010, 12:24 PM
He has a tennancy agreement which is invalid as we do not have a copy of this, he has the one and only original....

btw, he has paid no rent or deposit, it was just a verbal agreement that he could store belongings in one room of our then empty property for a few weeks but it has somehow dragged to nearly 12 months by him asking and pleading for more time. Now he has taken over the whole flat completely and refuses us entry.
What did the so-called 'tenancy agreement' say? Did it say that he would pay rent for the room for him to live in? Or did it say he'd pay a storage fee to store belongings in the room?

And when you say there was also a verbal agreement, is this different to the 'tenancy agreement'?

It doesn't matter that you don't have a copy of the paper contract, but the gist of what it said is important as he still has a copy, so please provide more details.

(Also, is the property in England/Wales?)

westminster
16-05-2010, 12:30 PM
As JTA says, there is no tenancy because no rent has been accepted.
If the 'tenancy agreement' said that he agreed to pay rent for the property (as opposed to storage charges), and he moved in, then I think he may perhaps be a tenant, albeit a non-paying one. I mean, if OP pursued eviction proceedings against occupier as a squatter/unauthorized occupier, then the occupier turns up at court with a tenancy agreement signed by OP....

qwerty89
16-05-2010, 12:40 PM
I briefly got to see the agreement when he called the police on me, and he produced it then. It had a forgery of my signature on it as well as my hubbies. he had written it up himslef claiming that he had paid us deposit of £5000 and that he was paying £200 month rent on top.

but he has never paid any of this, he has forged it to claim housing benefit...

The property is a two bed flat in England, and worth £850 to £900 per month at least, £200 pm is ridiculous.

qwerty89
16-05-2010, 13:02 PM
The verbal agreement was only that he was in between tenancies elsewhere and had to go abroad, so while he was gone, he stored his stuff at our property. on his return, he asked for a few days to sort things out. from that day to this, he has kept begging and pleading for more time and has now come to this.

We have only allowed this cos he is a family member and there is a dgreee of respect and leniency, but he is has started to take advantage of this and has abused it. we are still reluctant to take legal action mainly because of family and also the cost involved, but it now turns out there is no other option.

qwerty89
16-05-2010, 13:10 PM
I am not pursuing any rent arrears, we just want our property back. is there any other way other than from s21 / 8 that we can follow to just get him out?

and if s21 / 8 is the only way, what dates do i put and what evidence do i need...there is no schedule of rent or requests for rent, can we produce bank statements to show no money has been paid from him to us?


thanks for your advice

westminster
16-05-2010, 13:13 PM
I briefly got to see the agreement when he called the police on me, and he produced it then. It had a forgery of my signature on it as well as my hubbies. he had written it up himslef claiming that he had paid us deposit of £5000 and that he was paying £200 month rent on top.
So it's just a forgery (and probably a very bad forgery, from the sound of it). There is no tenancy agreement, written or oral, so the occupier is a squatter. S.8 and s.21 notices do not apply.

Here's a link to information/forms on how to evict a squatter. (Note that there are nine pages to read through).
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/housing/landlords/squatters/index.htm

Note that, if he tried to claim he paid you a deposit or rent, he would have to provide hard evidence of this - you do not have to prove he didn't pay rent.

westminster
16-05-2010, 13:19 PM
I am not pursuing any rent arrears, we just want our property back. is there any other way other than from s21 / 8 that we can follow to just get him out?

and if s21 / 8 is the only way, what dates do i put and what evidence do i need...there is no schedule of rent or requests for rent, can we produce bank statements to show no money has been paid from him to us?

I have just answered these questions above (we posted at the same time).

To repeat, you do not issue s.21/s.8 notices because the occupier is not an assured shorthold tenant, he's a squatter. You use the procedure for eviction of squatters.

You do not have to produce bank statements proving that you didn't receive money. If occupier claims he paid rent, he is the one who has to provide proof of this (which he can't).

westminster
16-05-2010, 13:39 PM
He has a tennancy agreement which is invalid as we do not have a copy of this, he has the one and only original.
We do not consider the agreement as valid but he is going to use it.


I briefly got to see the agreement when he called the police on me, and he produced it then. It had a forgery of my signature on it as well as my hubbies. he had written it up himslef claiming that he had paid us deposit of £5000 and that he was paying £200 month rent on top.

I would just like to emphasize that this so-called tenancy agreement is NOT a tenancy agreement. It's a forged document and it is totally invalid because it is a forgery.

davidjohnbutton
16-05-2010, 15:53 PM
And being that it is an offence to produce a forged instrument with intent to deceive, why havent you persued the police angle for forgery?

qwerty89
16-05-2010, 16:15 PM
I told the police at the time that it was a forgery, and the police agreed, but they did nothing and told me to leave my property instead....

they did tell me to take legal action though...

jta
16-05-2010, 17:30 PM
I told the police at the time that it was a forgery, and the police agreed, but they did nothing and told me to leave my property instead....

they did tell me to take legal action though...

I get fed up hearing tales like these, the police seem to think they are the only ones capable of interpreting the law, in this case trying to make a criminal offence into a civil matter. It probably does not seem much to them but it is costing the OP a lot of time and effort.
Querty, were I you, I would be making a complaint about it at the highest level you can reach.

Also, please stop worrying about the offender being related to you, he's taking you for a ride, and you are letting him. Don't think for one moment he does not know what he's doing. To clarify, squatting is a civil matter, forgery is criminal. Stop him now, for his own good, and yours.

davidjohnbutton
16-05-2010, 18:12 PM
Get a complaint into the police pronto - ask the police to tip you off when he is to be arrested - whilst he is under arrest, move into the property and change the locks and put notices on the doors forbidding entry.

If he is an unlawful occupier and his only claim to a "tenancy" is a forged document, he wont get very far with trying to recoccupy!!!!!

alias
16-05-2010, 18:23 PM
If I was you I would report him to the local authority for fraudulently claiming housing benefit too. He would be getting housing benefit on the basis that he is liable to pay rent. He is just pocketing the money as he is not liable to pay rent, which is fraudulent. This will be taken seriously.

qwerty89
16-05-2010, 18:42 PM
ok guys I presented this option to hubby that we can claim he is a squatter and report the forged agreement to police.

It turns out (after a long argument all afternoon) only my signature was forged, my hubby did sign a blank agreement, but did not fill out terms nor did he see what type of tenancy it was. ( I've already asked him how he could be so stupid).

He was doing this under pressure from his older brother on the day my hubby was to fly abroad, so did this without thinking of the consequences. His brother had complained to him about me, that I had threatened to call police on him and get him arrested in his absence. So to stop me from hassling his brother in his absence, he signed a document but did not check to see what he was signing!? The verbal agreement at this stage was his brother would then leave on my hubby's return. He returned in March, but his brother is still there.

My hubby has now learnt the hard way that his older brother was playing him for a fool, and is now using that agreement as a legal document.

But still, we do not have the original or a copy, he does, and he has not paid any rent or deposit.

Should we in this case go the s21 / s8 route?

property mongrel
16-05-2010, 20:20 PM
Before you involve anyone else in this situation it might be advisable to make sure you know the facts, and present all the relevant facts. Otherwise you have the situation where well meaning, well intentioned people give advice, or worse tell you what to do, without knowing what is what, on half, or less, of a story. The situation has changed completely from that portrayed in your OP. You will just waste other peoples time and effort.

If the brother is using a document that has been forged, in this case by someone other than you placing what purports to be your signature on it then it is a forgery, not just the bit which has your signature on it, the whole thing. Maybe in this regard the brother has been a bit too clever? You would need to look at the relevant case law.

Would be worth talking to a solicitor but is your hubby onboard with this?

pm

qwerty89
16-05-2010, 20:32 PM
yes he is totally on board now. He was'nt a few months ago hence the secretiveness from me. But now he has seen his brother's dishonest side, he has stopped talking to him and wants him out.

I am sorry for the twist in the story, but I am trying to find the best way to deal with this and am grateful for all the replies I have had, thank you all so much.

jta
17-05-2010, 08:44 AM
Should we in this case go the s21 / s8 route?

NO. If you do it that way you are virtually confirming that there is a tenancy, why would you use those forms if there wasn't?

Follow the advice you have been given, treat him as an unauthorised occupier, complain to the police that your complaint is not being treated properly. Try to speak directly to the CID departments.

Look up squatting in the search facility, you will learn something I'm sure.

jta
17-05-2010, 08:55 AM
This is the basic situation, copied from LLZ.



Removing Squatters Quickly

You need to act quickly once you find squatters in your premises. Given the trouble, stress, delay and expense of the legal process it is well worth having a jolly good try to peaceably pursuade the squatters to leave, or, if you get the opportunity, to peaceably re-enter and take over, bearing in mind you have a duty of care for any of the squatters' possessions.
Remember though, never use force or threats of violence: this could result in you getting yourself a criminal record, so its a good idea to have a witness with you at all times in case you are accused of this - otherwise it is very difficult to disprove such an accusation.
It may even be worthwhile to invest some money by offering to pay for temporary accommodation and removals, if you can establish some sort of raport, and pursuade them to go quickly.
Failing all of this, the legal process has now been speeded up considerably when it comes to removing squatters, by means of an Interim Possession Order. Use a solicitor to deal with this for you if you don't feel confident about doing it yourself. It is quite feasible to do this yourself, providing you are willing to do the homework, and save a considerable amount of money.
Interim Possession Order

A quicker procedure now exists which allows landlords to apply for an interim possession order, pending a judge's decision to grant a full possession order.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex332_0405.pdf (http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex332_0405.pdf)
An important consideration is that a claim for possession is made within 28 days of becoming aware of the existence of squatters occupying your property. If you do not do this the judge will take into consideration whether you, as owner or landlord, should have known about the occupation sooner that you did.
To assist your case you will be invited to make an undertaking to the court that:
1. You will allow the occupier/s back onto the premises (with compensation) if the court later decides you were not entitled to an interim possession order.

2. You will not re-let the premises, damage or dispose of them until the court makes its final decision by granting a full possession order.
The rules are strict when it comes to serving papers and notices on the squatters - it is easy to fall fowl of the rules here.
Within a few days the court should issue the claim, following which you must serve the court papers on the squatters within 24 hours, either in person or attached to and displayed on the main door of the premises.
If the court grants an interim possession order a copy of the order must be served on the squatters within 48 hours and the squatters will be required to leave within 24 hours and not return within 12 months.
They may also be subject to a fine or imprisonment or both. If the squatter/s refuse to leave they are committing a criminal offence and risk being arrested by the police or being evicted by a court bailiff.
The squatters are entitled to put forward a defense at one further hearing, failing which a final Possession Order will be made. If the squatters are still in possession at this stage, the court bailiff, if necessary assisted by the police, can evict.
The whole process should be capable of being resolved within one to two weeks, providing you can prove your own title and the tresspassers cannot show any sort of legal interest in the land

thesaint
17-05-2010, 09:34 AM
But still, we do not have the original or a copy, he does, and he has not paid any rent or deposit.

Should we in this case go the s21 / s8 route?

How do you know that your signature is on it? If he was smart, if he had forged your signature, he could easily put a piece of paper over it, photocopy it, and have a tenancy agreement free of forgery.

Is he claiming housing benefit?

Personally, I would go the Sec 8 + Sec 21 route.

I do not believe(Someone will be along to say different if it is the case) that by serving them will confirm that he is indeed a legal occupier, or give him any extra rights.

property mongrel
17-05-2010, 10:27 AM
How do you know that your signature is on it? The OP stated earlier that she had seen it when it was produced to the police, she pointed out to the police that it was a forgery (a false instrument) that her signature had been forged,(it is not clear here if hubby's signature was forged but she does later say that hubby stated he signed a blank form of some sort) and the police agreed that it was a false instrument and by virtue of being produced to the police it was now being used or "uttered", but for reasons best known to themselves, possibly due to lack of knowledge, the police decided not to deal with the criminal offences apparent but tell the OP to leave her premises. an interesting course of action whch would be hard to justify in a court. If he was smart, if he had forged your signature, he could easily put a piece of paper over it, photocopy it, and have a tenancy agreement free of forgery. You appear to be suggesting that if he copies a false instrument then the copy is not false, this is not correct. a false instrument is a document that tells a lie about itself, the copy will still be telling a lie about itself, in fact more lies than the original false instrument.

Is he claiming housing benefit? I believe OP stated that he was and needed the tenancy agreement to suppoort the claim for HB

Personally, I would go the Sec 8 + Sec 21 route.

I do not believe(Someone will be along to say different if it is the case) that by serving them will confirm that he is indeed a legal occupier, or give him any extra rights.


The issue now is to get "T" to produce the agreement so that someone can see it and seize it as evidence. If he is alerted to the fact that the game is up he may destroy it and then the OP would need to rely on her memory of what it says and whatever the original police officers called to the scene can recall or made notes of. It would have been so much easier if the OP had all the facts, given all the facts to the police and they had arrested "T" and seized the "tenancy agreement".

While it may not create a tenancy or legitimize this "tenancy", I am no expert on this, if they choose the option of s8 and s21 as you suggest it may be used to mitigate the action of the "T" in proceedings if subsequently he shows that the OP regards this as a legitimate tenancy and deals with it as such. The danger of some witnesses giving evidence or opinion on something they either do not know all the relevant facts of, or are not qualified or experienced enough to do so is that it can give the errant party a get out along the lines of "if all these people don't know how could I be expected to know?" I wonder if we have all the relevant facts even now?

can s8 and s21 be used on anyone regardless of the fact that there is no TA, IE just to get anyone out of any premises?

pm

matthew_henson
17-05-2010, 11:39 AM
can s8 and s21 be used on anyone regardless of the fact that there is no TA, IE just to get anyone out of any premises?

pm

An S21 and S8 serve only to terminate a 1988 HA tenancies they do not apply to others

westminster
17-05-2010, 11:39 AM
How do you know that your signature is on it? If he was smart, if he had forged your signature, he could easily put a piece of paper over it, photocopy it, and have a tenancy agreement free of forgery.
Whichever way the occupier tried to manipulate the forged document, it would still be a forgery. The husband (idiotically) signed a blank document, and the occupier forged an agreement around the husband's signature - an agreement that the property owners did not agree to, and which includes the false statement that the occupier paid £5000 as a deposit.

If the occupier was smart, he would not have created a forged document and tried to obtain housing benefit by fraud.


Personally, I would go the Sec 8 + Sec 21 route.
So you would serve a s.8 on a non-tenant for non-rent not-due under a forged tenancy agreement - and what do you think would happen at the s.8 hearing? Would you present the court with a schedule of not-due non-rent unpaid? What if the non-tenant claimed disrepair under your non-obligations as a non-landlord? :rolleyes:

thesaint
17-05-2010, 11:49 AM
An S21 and S8 serve only to terminate a 1988 HA tenancy, where an AST exists, they do apply to other tenancies

I understand that.

I think it's fair to say that since the OP hasn't seen the tenancy agreement, she has no idea what it has on it.
I would serve them in case he does have a valid tenancy agreement, unless by doing so he would be granted those rights that he did not have previously.

jeffrey
17-05-2010, 11:53 AM
(Sigh) Why on earth do people blunder in and create such messes, when- with a little forethought and advice- no such problems need ever arise?

matthew_henson
17-05-2010, 11:57 AM
I understand that.

I think it's fair to say that since the OP hasn't seen the tenancy agreement, she has no idea what it has on it.
I would serve them in case he does have a valid tenancy agreement, unless by doing so he would be granted those rights that he did not have previously.

Were this a genuine AST serving the notice would not terminate the contract, that is done by court order. Therefore what threat or effect would they have, as Westminster pointed out how can you take a non-contract "resident" to court for not paying no rent?

There is no tenancy to serve a notice against

property mongrel
17-05-2010, 12:12 PM
(Sigh) Why on earth do people blunder in and create such messes, when- with a little forethought and advice- no such problems need ever arise? Because they do not know any better.

I can understand their confusion if you consider that even here there are people with expertise and experience advocating a particular course of action. As I understand it the existence of a forged agreement is irrelevant in the matter of getting the T/Family Member out, and s8 and s21 can not apply as there is no AST in England and Wales etc, so if you manage to get the FM to a court your action will be dismissed? With costs awarded against you? The existence of the forged agreement is relevant to the council if it has been used to suppoirt a claim to obtain HB fraudulently, which on the facts presented appears to be the case. I would tell the council all the details asap, they will look into it maybe give the police a second chance, and let them do the job for you.

QWERTY89 - how long has the family member been in occupation?

pm

westminster
17-05-2010, 12:23 PM
I think it's fair to say that since the OP hasn't seen the tenancy agreement, she has no idea what it has on it.
It doesn't matter what it says. It's not a tenancy agreement, it's a forgery with zero legal validity. *facepalm*

All it evidences is the dishonesty of the unauthorized occupier and the stupidity of his brother.

jta
17-05-2010, 13:19 PM
Take note that if you still have keys to the property there is nothing stopping you from re-occupying when he goes out to collect his beers/pizza/fish'n chips or whatever. Get in, sit tight, and tell the police you ain't shifting. That's if they bother to come round. Grrr. me blood's boiling now.

By the by, if the police did force you out for a 'civil' matter such as this I would expect you to make a big quid when they lost the wrongful arrest case you could bring, but do not step off the property until you have changed the locks at least.

and installed a few booby traps.

qwerty89
17-05-2010, 16:24 PM
Hello All,
We were at the housing benefits section all day today trying to get info out of them. They would not budge on whether HB is being paid and how much, (data protection and confidentiality) but we did manage to get a copy of the agreement he presented to them.

We asked them to stop paying altogether but they would not agree, they said if someone is entitled, they have to pay. We asked to be paid directly, but they also refused (I can't understand why, he is being paid to pay us, so why not go direct?) From this I assume he is being paid probably £200pw. We told them the story, don't know what they are going to do about it....

It is an AST starting from 08/06/2009, duration he has put "as long as I wish to stay". and ending on he has put "One months notice any time I wish to leave" :)

Rent he has put as £200 a week , but no date as to when payable. He has also put £5000 deposit paid for repairs to property and 3 months advance rent. But he has not actually paid anything. My hubby has signed it.

Now that we know the details, would it be simpler to go the S8 route, as its going to cost me more to prove that its a forgery if I go the squatter route?

westminster
17-05-2010, 17:12 PM
Hello All,
We were at the housing benefits section all day today trying to get info out of them. ... We asked to be paid directly, but they also refused
You did WHAT? You are not entitled to rent because - for the umpteenth time - there is no tenancy agreement. It's a forgery. It's not a valid contract. The occupier is committing fraud.


It is an AST starting from 08/06/2009, duration he has put "as long as I wish to stay". and ending on he has put "One months notice any time I wish to leave" :)

Rent he has put as £200 a week , but no date as to when payable. He has also put £5000 deposit paid for repairs to property and 3 months advance rent. But he has not actually paid anything. My hubby has signed it.

Now that we know the details, would it be simpler to go the S8 route, as its going to cost me more to prove that its a forgery if I go the squatter route?

Is your brother-in-law such a master of forgery that it's not obvious it's not your signature? In addition, the sheer amateurishness of the wording, and the absurdity of a £5,000 deposit for a £200 a week rent goes a long way to proving it's a forgery.

And how is he going to prove he paid £5,000 deposit and three months advance rent? He can't because he didn't pay anything.

I assure you that if you go to court and your brother-in-law is questioned by the judge about his version of the story, it'll be very obvious to the court he's lying.

In my opinion you would get into far greater difficulty if you attempted to follow the s.8 procedure for evicting a tenant, when you know very well that he is not a tenant. Remember it is a serious offence to lie to the court.

jta
17-05-2010, 18:15 PM
Now that we know the details, would it be simpler to go the S8 route, as its going to cost me more to prove that its a forgery if I go the squatter route?


Since you have a copy of it now, why not share it with us? In any case it is not for you to prove it's a forgery but for him to prove it's genuine, that's not going to happen is it? Gain entrance to your property by hook or by crook, if I was not such a law abiding type I might suggest something along the lines of a football through the window, accidentally of course, and a child who would confess to it if the question came up, but that would be naughty so I wont suggest it. Other ideas, has the place got a gas safety certificate? Get a burly friend to gain access as an engineer. same thing for plumbers or various workmen. If you have a sky dish there, have it removed. anything and everything you can think of.
Is he paying the bills for the property? Water/gas/electricity, if they are still in your name, have them cut off.

Stop being wimpish and do what you have to do.

qwerty89
17-05-2010, 18:44 PM
I have the keys, and I have been there on several occasions to reason with this man, the last time being in February. He is very obstinate and stubborn, he keeps calling the ploice on me, and says I'm harrassing him. The police won't do anything and keep telling me to go away and take legal action.

We have had family involved to reason with him as well, but he is taking non of it, he needs to be taught a proper lesson.....

I have given him verbal and written notices to vacate, now I will take legal action as he thinks that I won't because he is family. I don't want to risk going there and harrasing him again in case he uses this against me in court....

The only thing I'm worried about is the fact that my husband has signed the agreement, and may get charged for forgery as well...the fact that he signed it says that he has consented to his brother being a "tenant". His brother is now abusing this, if he wants to stay there so badly then let him pay rent!? If he wont pay, then we can use the agreement to get him out...

qwerty89
17-05-2010, 19:10 PM
Dear Learned Members,

I have decided to take the s21 / 8 route and therefore need help to complete these. I have downloaded the pdf forms from the resources area:

S21:
"Date of expiry of this notice" if AST started 08/06/2009, it is now periodic so it should be from 08/06/2010 to 07/08/2010? so the expiry date should be "after 08/08/2010"?

Also I should cross the periodic AST box?

Also "date this notice is served" can be any date so would 25/05/2010 be ok as that is the day we will have served it to the "T".

Does anyone know where I can view the grounds for S8?

Thanks in advance for your help

westminster
17-05-2010, 19:31 PM
the only thing i'm worried about is the fact that my husband has signed the agreement, and may get charged for forgery as well...the fact that he signed it says that he has consented to his brother being a "tenant". His brother is now abusing this, if he wants to stay there so badly then let him pay rent!? If he wont pay, then we can use the agreement to get him out...

For the LAST time. There is NO tenancy agreement. It is a FORGERY.*

Your brother-in-law is the forger, NOT your husband.

START POSSESSION PROCEEDINGS AGAINST THE SQUATTER AND TELL THE TRUTH TO THE COURT.**

*Unless of course, your husband is lying to you and just pretending he didn't knowingly enter into a tenancy agreement with his brother. Not beyond the realm of possibility from the sound of things... And if they BOTH knowingly entered into the agreement, it's not a forgery, FFS.

** Alternatively, serve a s.8, invent a schedule of 'unpaid' non-rent and find out how benevolently the court views idiots and time-wasters. Look forward to a counterclaim for disrepair from your brother-in-law, and then a claim for failing to protect his non-existent deposit. Or better still, dither around for a few more months fretting about what to do, then decide to do nothing and/or post again on here.

qwerty89
17-05-2010, 20:23 PM
For the LAST time. There is NO tenancy agreement. It is a FORGERY.*

Your brother-in-law is the forger, NOT your husband.

START POSSESSION PROCEEDINGS AGAINST THE SQUATTER AND TELL THE TRUTH TO THE COURT.**.


Im willing to take this route as it is obviously the truth, but if the court decides the agreement is valid (as my husband has signed it) , I suppose I can then try the s21 / 8 routes?

I am also thinking of the costs as we are in mortgage arrrears and other debts due to no rent coming in for nearly a year.

westminster
17-05-2010, 20:24 PM
Dear Learned Members,

I have decided to take the s21 / 8 route and therefore need help to complete these.
Translation: "I have decided to ignore everyone's advice on my previous thread and to try to evict an unauthorized occupier via the route which is only appropriate for assured shorthold tenants".
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=28457


Also I should cross the periodic AST box?
No, you don't tick either ticky box because there is no AST.


Does anyone know where I can view the grounds for S8?

Yes, I do. But if you want to mislead HM Courts you're on your own.

I will tell you, however, that a s.21 notice served on an assured shorthold tenant is not valid unless the LL protects the deposit. So if you want to pursue this charade, you'd have to protect the non-tenant's non-existent £5,000 deposit first. See
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TenancyDeposit/index.htm
For various reasons, you'd have to use the DPS. This means forking out £5,000 in hard cash to the DPS. The non-tenant would then be entitled to this money at the end of the non-tenancy, unless you can prove non-rent arrears.

Hope this helps.

thesaint
17-05-2010, 22:25 PM
It doesn't matter what it says. It's not a tenancy agreement, it's a forgery with zero legal validity. *facepalm*

All it evidences is the dishonesty of the unauthorized occupier and the stupidity of his brother.

You're 100% sure of this, i'm not.



Hello All,
We were at the housing benefits section all day today trying to get info out of them. They would not budge on whether HB is being paid and how much, (data protection and confidentiality) but we did manage to get a copy of the agreement he presented to them.

We asked them to stop paying altogether but they would not agree, they said if someone is entitled, they have to pay. We asked to be paid directly, but they also refused (I can't understand why, he is being paid to pay us, so why not go direct?) From this I assume he is being paid probably £200pw. We told them the story, don't know what they are going to do about it....

It is an AST starting from 08/06/2009, duration he has put "as long as I wish to stay". and ending on he has put "One months notice any time I wish to leave" :)

Rent he has put as £200 a week , but no date as to when payable. He has also put £5000 deposit paid for repairs to property and 3 months advance rent. But he has not actually paid anything. My hubby has signed it.

Now that we know the details, would it be simpler to go the S8 route, as its going to cost me more to prove that its a forgery if I go the squatter route?

Phone HB again, and give the name of the person you spoke to earlier and tell the officer what you was told about them not being able to stop the claim.

I suspend HB claims all the time when tenants stop paying their rent, so I don't know what is so special about the HB department that you went to.
You will then have to follow the call up with a letter explaining what you said in the phone call. They will then have to investigate your claim.

This thread has so many twists and turns, and I can't remember if the tenant/squatter was supposed to be paying rent, and if so how much is it?

If he was supposed to be paying rent, tell the HB dept the amount, and they should pay you direct. If he isn't supposed to be paying rent, I don't know how you can expect to be paid direct, as he is staying there free of charge, even if he has overstayed his welcome.

You mention nothing of your forged signature being on the tenancy agreement.

Moderator1
18-05-2010, 10:16 AM
Three threads by the same member have been merged here. Please do not start a new thread if you merely wish to continue a previous discussion or report on subsequent developments. It can cause unnecessary confusion (quite apart from losing the connection with facts previously established or legal points previously explained).

qwerty89: if you persist in asking the same question under different titles and yet ignore members' remonstrations, you will be suspended.

qwerty89
21-05-2010, 16:43 PM
This request is for any legal experts out there who can advise on which court action to take.

I agree that I cannot go S21 / 8 rutes, but I also cannot go the squatter route as occupier has been allowed to stay for a time and has been there now for nearly a year, but is now not welcome.

He will / may produce the agreement so I need to provide a statement to put my story across. Does the N5 form allow this or is there another way?

jta
21-05-2010, 18:19 PM
He will / may produce the agreement so I need to provide a statement to put my story across. Does the N5 form allow this or is there another way?

For the last time from me qwerty89, The agreement is a forgery, if what you say is true, he would be putting his own neck in the noose if he produced it. Have you complained to the CID? thought not! Either put the problem in the hands of a competent solicitor or gain entry and change the locks while he's out and defy him to call the police. If you stick to your guns you will gain possession.

westminster
21-05-2010, 20:58 PM
Qwerty, as promised, I have asked around. The status of the occupier appears to be that of a 'tenant at will' (which is neither a squatter nor a 'proper' tenant).

To evict (without risk of accusations of illegal eviction) you must first give 'reasonable' notice to quit, written but in no special/official format.

(If you've already sent letters to this effect, and have proof of posting and copy letters, then this is probably sufficient. If not, write giving notice, keep a copy and get a *free* certificate of posting. Twenty-eight days' notice is probably enough to be 'reasonable').

Second, you must apply for possession under Civil Procedure Rule 55, i.e. use form N5 and tick 'other' under grounds for possession. I am now guessing, but where it asks you to specify what the 'other' ground is, I'd say that the occupier is a tenant at will and you now require possession (if anyone else has a better suggestion, please say so!)

I also have confirmation that the forged agreement has no relevance (no surprises there). If your brother-in-law tries to use it as a defence, your response is that it is a forged document, and you put him to strict proof of his allegation.

property mongrel
21-05-2010, 21:55 PM
If you are going to try any form of court process or legal procedure to deal with this issue you may wish to make sure that you cannot be caught out either NOT having done something you should have done or conversely not found to HAVE done something that you should not have done? Put simply, make sure you are legal and squeaky clean.

You stated in post 8 that you were exempt council tax and this situation came to light as a result of that ending? So your relative was in the property, living there while you were council tax exempt? On what you say here you appear to have been fraudulently claiming exemption from council tax or at least fraudulently benefiting from council tax exemption. If, those are the facts, you may have committed a criminal offence. I would sort all these little minor issues out before I was going to take legal action against someone.

pm

Lawcruncher
22-05-2010, 07:51 AM
As in many family situations, the position here is not clear cut. I think the question that needs to be asked is: was there an intention to enter into legal relations? From the information we have the answer seems to be "no" and that means there is no tenancy of any type. It seems likely therefore that the occupier is, or was initially, a licensee. If the licence has been withdrawn he is now a trespasser. In that respect I repeat what I said earlier:


The only time you can eject a trespasser without a court order is when you are resident in the property. So, if you come home from the shops, or even holiday, and find someone on the sofa you can eject him using reasonable force. Your relative is not in that situation and so you need a court order. In any event there has to be doubt as to whether he is a trespasser since you gave him a key. As has been said, family situations can be difficult to assess legally as it can depend on whether there was ever an intention to enter into legal relations. Do not waste time involving the police. They will tell you it is a civil matter and they will be right.

It is therefore unwise to take direct action.

I think the OP is in serious danger of shooting herself in the foot if she goes it alone. Whilst I am all in favour of legal DIY in suitable cases, this is not a suitable case. It needs to be handled by a landlord and tenant specialist solicitor. If it gets to court there is the risk that the occupier may be a plausible witness and it will need a skilled advocate to tie him in knots to undermine his case. The OP may balk at the cost, but the cost needs to be weighed up against the loss of income and the cost of getting it wrong.

westminster
22-05-2010, 10:37 AM
Wholeheartedly agree with lawcruncher's advice to pay a specialist solicitor to deal with this.

To clarify, my most recent comment was based on the latest information given by qwerty who told me in a PM that

he did'nt enter without our consent, indeed we let him store stuff there and then let him stay for a little while until he could find somewhere else. This then blurs into allowing him more and more time

The difficulty all along has been the fact that there are several different versions of what happened, (not including the brother-in-law's). For example, we were initially told, in post #1



There was no verbal agreement for him to stay, he was just storing his stuff there while away on a long trip. He just moved in on his return as we had given him the keys to get his stuff.

property mongrel
22-05-2010, 12:34 PM
I agree with Lawcruncher, the situation is not clear cut. But, I don't think this has as much to do with the fact that the issue is between family members, it is more to do with the fact that the OP has been less than completely honest about the situation.

This will be a big concern for anyone instructed to deal with them, can they be relied on to tell the truth in preparing the case and giving evidence in court if it comes to that? I would not be suprised if at some point OP has received some rent from the T? The details of the agreement that was allegedly a forged TA has not been divulged here despite being asked about repeatedly.

Qwerty89, if you employ any legal representation you will have to be completely honest with them from the start, or it will end up costing you more, that is if they continue with you as a client. Getting caught out not telling the truth, or apparently misleading a court will damage your credibility in proceedings.

pm

qwerty89
22-05-2010, 12:35 PM
I appreciate all your advice everyone, This is out of my league to diy as I have never even had to do a straighforward eviction before.

I will start looking for a specialist, if you can recommend anyone that would be great.

Will keep you posted to outcomes as they happen....

qwerty89
22-05-2010, 12:46 PM
I would not be suprised if at some point OP has received some rent from the T? The details of the agreement that was allegedly a forged TA has not been divulged here despite being asked about repeatedly.



pm

We have never received rent from him, nor asked for any. only my signature was forged on the agreement, but my husband has signed it. we have a crime reference number and the Police Officers who witnessed the agreement back in March 2010 can confirm that.

qwerty89
07-06-2010, 09:58 AM
Dear All, as promised I am keeping you informed of progress.....

I went to court on my own this morning and got a possession order!! he has to leave in 14 days otherwise I can instruct bailiffs!!

I could'nt afford a legal rep so did it on my own under tresspasser and "other" and used the forged agreement as evidence.

He did'nt turn up to defend, so the judge was very nice and gave me possession!!

Thank-you all for steering me in the right direction as otherwise this could have turned ugly :eek:

Going to work now, will read your replies in the evening.....

jeffrey
07-06-2010, 10:05 AM
Well done! Of course, you still have to obtain vacant possession...

qwerty89
07-06-2010, 23:25 PM
Well done! Of course, you still have to obtain vacant possession...

Thanks Jeffrey, :)

I have a feeling he won't go quietly so I will have to instruct bailiffs.... we're looking at approx another 6 to 8 weeks...

westminster
07-06-2010, 23:40 PM
I could'nt afford a legal rep so did it on my own under tresspasser and "other" and used the forged agreement as evidence.
Wow, well done, qwerty!

Can I ask, did you use form N5 and tick the 'other' box under 'grounds for possession' or did you use the alternative form specifically for squatters?

qwerty89
08-06-2010, 15:47 PM
Wow, well done, qwerty!

Can I ask, did you use form N5 and tick the 'other' box under 'grounds for possession' or did you use the alternative form specifically for squatters?

Hi Westminster,
I used form N5 and ticked "trespasser" and "other" (forged document used), and completed form N121 particulars of claim.

I gave in all my evidence and notices and correspondence etc with the claim on 28th May, and had a hearing date sent to me on the 3rd of June for the 7th of June! I was very surprised at the speed of the hearing date as I had been expecting a six week wait, judging by comments on this forum...:)

qwerty89
19-07-2010, 09:19 AM
dear learned members,

you will be pleased to know that I have an eviction date of 10th August. I am wondering whether I should send the evictee a notice to remove his belongings now so that I don't waste more time after the eviction waiting for him to remove it?

How much time can i give him if I send the notice this week? Can I ask for same day as eviction?

thanks for your help :)

property mongrel
19-07-2010, 09:36 AM
Well done qwerty89, I hope it all goes smoothly for you.

pm