Noise Pollution/Bad Sound Insulation

[turningpoint199]

Hello All,

This is my first post, so please be gentle with me.

Basically, last week I moved into a one bedroom ground floor flat (Victorian Maisonette leasehold: 999 years) with my partner and as we started unloading the boxes all we could hear was the noise from upstairs and it was unbearable!

We've literally just bought the place and are gutted as the noise from footsteps etc is excessive. For example, we can't even sit in the living room if the upstairs have the tv is on because all we can hear is their tv and any talking. It seems as though we can hear every foot step and at times it sounds like a hurd of elephants. We think they may have as many as 5 people crammed into a 1/2 bedroom flat upstairs.

1) I wondered whether we had any standpoint against the people who sold the place to us? They must have known about the noise and we bought the place in good faith. The noise is in my opinion so bad that if you did nothing your health would simply detiorate.

2) I know the council will do nothing to fix the problem as they consider the noise 'everyday noise' having read their website. But do the government have certain standards that should be upheld pre-1992?

3) A week after moving in..... to fix this problem (albeit partially) by erecting a suspended ceiling, would we have to bare this entire cost?

I don't want to sound crude, but to summarise: is there any way for us to avoid either the suffering (which we will have to endure) and the cost of fixing the problem? It *sounds* strange to me that people can flog a place which isn't fit for living and get away with it.

Please, any help received is much appreciated.

Best Regards

[jeffrey]

V replied to Pre-Contract Enquiries, perhaps as part of the HIP. Were V's replies (re noise/disputes/etc.) accurate or not?

[turningpoint199]

V replied to Pre-Contract Enquiries, perhaps as part of the HIP. Were V's replies (re noise/disputes/etc.) accurate or not?

Vendor replies to say there are no disputes (2.2).

Looking through the rest of the HIP and lease there is no reference to anything else which relates to noise. There is a section which says all boundaries need to be kept in ok by the tenants and that the cost of abating any problem (can't think of specific terms used) should be bourne by the tenant also.

[jeffrey]

Vendor replies to say there are no disputes (2.2).So was that inaccurate? Did neighbour and V have a disute ongoing when you purchased unawares?

[turningpoint199]

So was that inaccurate? Did neighbour and V have a disute ongoing when you purchased unawares?

To my knowledge there is no dispute. Sorry, I should give you some background on the place. I believe it was rented out previously, so the vendor didn't live there (to my knowledge) and so could reasonably say they had no idea. We contacted our solicitor and he was of the opinion that that the people didn't have to mention it, and also that the sellers didn't live there.

I would have thought that if there had been a dispute then the solicitor we were using would have picked it up. I find it hard to believe that someone could live in the flat and not complain though.

I think the freeholders are the same people who sold the flat to us.

[Markonee1]

I'd try and find previous tenant's and gently winkle out of them if they had any issues.
Sources? Old mail, voting lists etc.

[jeffrey]

To my knowledge there is no dispute. Sorry, I should give you some background on the place. I believe it was rented out previously, so the vendor didn't live there (to my knowledge) and so could reasonably say they had no idea. We contacted our solicitor and he was of the opinion that that the people didn't have to mention it, and also that the sellers didn't live there.

I would have thought that if there had been a dispute then the solicitor we were using would have picked it up. I find it hard to believe that someone could live in the flat and not complain though.

I think the freeholders are the same people who sold the flat to us.
That seems logical if the lessor had not previously demised the flat and was granting to you a Dispositionary First Lease.

[turningpoint199]

I think the gist of the messages, I think is that we're going to have to learn to appreciate this noise or have to pay a small fortune to soundproof the place. Legally we can't contest this :(.

[jeffrey]

I think the gist of the messages, I think is that we're going to have to learn to appreciate this noise or have to pay a small fortune to soundproof the place. Legally we can't contest this.
Yes, you can. If (as seems likely) the other leaseholder [N] is in breach of covenant, and if L itself gave an enforcement covenant in your lease, you can compel L to enforce against N.

[turningpoint199]

Yes, you can. If (as seems likely) the other leaseholder [N] is in breach of covenant, and if L itself gave an enforcement covenant in your lease, you can compel L to enforce against N.

Thank you for your help. I think that the other leaseholder is probably renting the flat out to it's current occupants - though that is a guess. That's based on speaking to the neighbour who didn't seem to have a clue about anything. He even said he didn't know whether their floor was carpeted or wooden.

I cannot see how our lease really protects us - it doesn't say anything favourable. And I'm guessing their lease is very similar to ours (just swapping names about). Would contacting the freeholder help? Though, I don't see why the freeholder would want to get involved. He is due 20 pounds rent per year for the next 999 years before getting it back.

[jeffrey]

Thank you for your help. I think that the other leaseholder is probably renting the flat out to it's current occupants - though that is a guess. That's based on speaking to the neighbour who didn't seem to have a clue about anything. He even said he didn't know whether their floor was carpeted or wooden.

I cannot see how our lease really protects us - it doesn't say anything favourable. And I'm guessing their lease is very similar to ours (just swapping names about). Would contacting the freeholder help? Though, I don't see why the freeholder would want to get involved. He is due 20 pounds rent per year for the next 999 years before getting it back.

If the leases so provide, you can compel F to help! The other flat's current occupants, as short-term sub-tenants, are not bound by covenants in the relevant long lease; but N, their landlord, surely is.

[turningpoint199]

If the leases so provide, you can compel F to help! The other flat's current occupants, as short-term sub-tenants, are not bound by covenants in the relevant long lease; but N, their landlord, surely is.

I don't think the lease is favourable in any way. It is so old that it has no references laminate flooring etc. I think we're gonna have to stump-up :(

[turningpoint199]

Basically, we recently moved into our (groundfloor) flat which we purchased with a new lease of around 999 years remaining.

And about a month ago I posted a message about our flat having poor sound/noise insulation...

Since then the noise has worsened due to the sub-tenant (person renting) there deliberately encouraging her kids to make as much noise as possible - I believe this was because we confronted them about the poor insulation... nothing intimdatory or threatening, we simply asked what sort of flooring they had - they answered that they 'didn't know'.

As a result of this ongoing irritation and provocation, I have decided to contact the freeholder, asking that he provide details of the other leaseholder/tenant, or that he get in touch with the other tenant about the noise issue. I feel we (my partner and I) have exhausted methods which would tackle the problem source - and that the last time we spoke that she was infact aggressive, accusational and not quite right mentally.

Taking action now I will explain will avoid legal costs for all parties concerned; end destruction to the properties; avoid having a 'dispute' being flagged in official documentation; and avoid all parties having to deal with the authorities. I will say that I have set myself a 28 day deadline to appoint counsel if nothing is done. And that I don't consider speaking to the tenants there as an 'action'. Simply because we have spoken about this before and it has made the problem worse - they cannot be trusted in the place.

I know this sounds very heavy handed, but I'd like some feedback if at all possible.

Cheers,

Ben

[jeffrey]

What I said in post #12 still holds good. If F refuses to help, you can compel F to comply with the covenant to enforce.

[turningpoint199]

What I said in post #12 still holds good. If F refuses to help, you can compel F to comply with the covenant to enforce.

The Freeholder has now written back and copied in a letter he's written to the other tenant telling him that his sub-tenant is causing us a nuisance etc. He's quoted the part of the lease I referred to and also forwarded my letter to this to the other Leesee. He's also ended the letter saying that this doesn't interest him and that if we bother him again there will be an 'agent fee'. Can he reasonably apply this charge?

And.. the other leesee has not written back or tried to contact me. The noise from upstairs is a little better since I wrote my letter to the Freeholder, but it's still unreasonable (even if a lot of it may well be classified as 'everyday noise') - I don't want to hear every footstep from upstairs.

Could you give me some advice over my next move? I'm thinking of writing to the other leesee and asking him what can and will be done. I suspect that his lack of action (besides a call to his tenants) means that he is unwilling to help as this will only affect him negatively - in the pocket. I'm willing to pay 50% of the costs of soundproofing as I believe the leese says regarding boundary disputes, but will say that due to the hassle I don't feel I should - otherwise he will barter me down to paying 100%, which, of 4k is too much.

I see the soundproofing as our only solution. I have nothing against the people causing the noise, particularly as lately they have /actually/ been stopping their brats running riot. Whoever lives there will generate a lot of noise. I don't want to pay 4k out when the place needs loads of work doing to it, especially when we've only moved in less than 2 months ago.

We can suggest logging a dispute if he doesn't do anything (so it makes it harder for him to sell up), or making any tenants lives a nightmare (loss of rental income), but these don't really go far enough in enforcing an action, particularly when the Freeholder doesn't seem keen to act. It would also be unfair to inflict pain upon people who clearly don't deserve it.

Advice please.

[westminster]

Stannard v Charles Pitcher Ltd. & Ors [2002] EWHC

Claimant successfully established that noise from an upstairs flat constituted an actionable nuisance. An injunction was granted requiring the defendant to install appropriate floor coverings with acoustic barriers.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2002/2760.html

[turningpoint199]

Stannard v Charles Pitcher Ltd. & Ors [2002] EWHC

Claimant successfully established that noise from an upstairs flat constituted an actionable nuisance. An injunction was granted requiring the defendant to install appropriate floor coverings with acoustic barriers.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2002/2760.html

I think we may struggle to use this a precedent for a couple of reasons: a) the structure of the building was altered post 2000 and so can have new building reg rules applied; and b) the leese points to the floor being covered.

Thank you for the link though - it's much appreciated.

[westminster]

I think we may struggle to use this a precedent for a couple of reasons: a) the structure of the building was altered post 2000 and so can have new building reg rules applied; and b) the leese points to the floor being covered.

Thank you for the link though - it's much appreciated.

The crux of the matter is, as I understand it, that a noise nuisance is actionable full stop.

For example, even if a lease says floors must be carpeted, and the upstairs neighbour's floors are indeed carpeted, it doesn't necessarily follow that it is impossible for them to cause a noise nuisance.

[jeffrey]

True. Common-law tort is actionable even if the lease says something contrary.

[turningpoint199]

I don't know what the best thing to do now is. I haven't heard from the other leesee so i should probably get in contact with him.

The noise really is quite dreadful and I have now resorted to wearing ear plugs.

The question I'm going to ask him is: 'what are you going to do?'. But there must be something else. I don't know if I should go all guns blazing, or friendly. I figure friendly is a no-no as I'll just be batted into next week and forgotten about.

Unless I contact him, I'm guessing he could claim that he's unaware of the events and never received a letter from the freeholder etc. That would excuse him of any wrongdoing I would guess.

[westminster]

I don't know what the best thing to do now is. I haven't heard from the other leesee so i should probably get in contact with him......

Unless I contact him, I'm guessing he could claim that he's unaware of the events and never received a letter from the freeholder etc. That would excuse him of any wrongdoing I would guess.
The upstairs lessee should, of course, be given the opportunity to remedy the problem before you sue the person liable (whether that's the freeholder or the lessee - I suppose the latter if claiming on the basis of tort).

It seems to me that legal action is inevitable. The upstairs lessee has already been contacted by the freeholder and failed to contact you, suggesting he's unlikely to cooperate unless at least threatened with legal action.

Where did you get the figure of £4,000 from? I would make very sure that whatever works are eventually carried out will definitely solve the problem - it's no good hoping that a suspended ceiling will do the trick. You'll need to get expert advice and both flats will have to be inspected for this.

You may find this website useful
http://www.soundreduction.co.uk/

[turningpoint199]

The upstairs lessee should, of course, be given the opportunity to remedy the problem before you sue the person liable (whether that's the freeholder or the lessee - I suppose the latter if claiming on the basis of tort).

It seems to me that legal action is inevitable. The upstairs lessee has already been contacted by the freeholder and failed to contact you, suggesting he's unlikely to cooperate unless at least threatened with legal action.

Where did you get the figure of £4,000 from? I would make very sure that whatever works are eventually carried out will definitely solve the problem - it's no good hoping that a suspended ceiling will do the trick. You'll need to get expert advice and both flats will have to be inspected for this.

You may find this website useful
http://www.soundreduction.co.uk/


Thank you for the advice. I am using that as a best case scenario figure - and one which we could afford, based around what I've read. I would get the upstairs soundproofed rather than have us having the ceiling lowered. I hadn't thought that it may require more substantial work, eg. the upstairs and downstairs both to be done.

So to conclude: I should write to the leesee and further indicate our intent to take legal action, and at the same time ask for permission to gain access in order to obtain a comprehensive quote - which I can then give to them to assess.

At the same time I'm not entirely sure how the freeholder can get away with selling us the property knowing full well of the problems - the noise issue didn't appear over night and he didn't mention it in the hip or make any disclosure. I find it hard to believe he had no idea beforehand. The cost of legal action might make it more worthwhile just to sell-on. But then who would buy it and at what loss would that be to us. Hopefully it'll be resolved sooner rather than later.

[westminster]

So to conclude: I should write to the leesee and further indicate our intent to take legal action, and at the same time ask for permission to gain access in order to obtain a comprehensive quote - which I can then give to them to assess.
I think it would be sensible to seek a legal opinion first, so that you're aware of who might be sued, how strong your case is, how likely you'd be awarded costs etc.

It's still possible you might have a case against the vendor, but you won't know unless you ask a solicitor.

[turningpoint199]

I think it would be sensible to seek a legal opinion first, so that you're aware of who might be sued, how strong your case is, how likely you'd be awarded costs etc.

It's still possible you might have a case against the vendor, but you won't know unless you ask a solicitor.

My partner has spoken to someone legally about this and he says that the cost of persuing this is fairly high and that if you can sort it out amicably then that's the way to go.

This afternoon I plan on writing that letter to the other lessee, asking him to arrange a meeting or give an indication of what he's going to do, if anything.

In the meantime, I have received a letter from the freeholder stating his desire to sell the freehold. This is offered for 10 pounds and all the paper work appears to have been approved by his solicitor. We are expected to pay for this solicitor and that price is 250+vat. Obviously the other person is included in this.

How would this work? Is there much benefit to buying it? I know we could aquire it at almost no cost.. but then it would be our responsibility to enforce the lease. And .. as there are 999 years and we're only due to pay 10 pounds, then what benefit are we going to get, apart from free reign over structural amendments.

[LottieWeb]

Hi - I'm in almost the same position as you and would very much like to hear how things progress. The difference is I actually paid the £3000 to insulate the floor above (which galls me to type, but I have to tell myself that my mental health was worth it as the owner didn't see it as his problem), although it hasn't stopped the bass, door banging, whooping (they're Brazilian and like a party).

As you say, it's a balance between negotiation and enforcement, but I still don't understand why this is our problem rather than those who are in breach.

[turningpoint199]

Hi - I'm in almost the same position as you and would very much like to hear how things progress. The difference is I actually paid the £3000 to insulate the floor above (which galls me to type, but I have to tell myself that my mental health was worth it as the owner didn't see it as his problem), although it hasn't stopped the bass, door banging, whooping (they're Brazilian and like a party).

As you say, it's a balance between negotiation and enforcement, but I still don't understand why this is our problem rather than those who are in breach.


A small update on where we are since I last posted.

- The freeholder is pushing us on whether we want to accept his offer. There is a deadline, except that we've lost the letter so don't know when it is.

- We've now spoken to the other owner of the property upstairs. He didn't contact us so we knocked on his door instead. He seemed ok, but unlikely to do anything about the people upstairs.

- Basically he referred us to the council and said leave it to them to sort out - with the people upstairs being sent a warning letter etc, and then the problem being monitored.

- He also said that the flooring upstairs is fine and has plenty of underlay. He believes there shouldn't be any problems caused by people walking around and that the noise shouldn't be any worse than at any other place. Having said all this, I found it quite hard to believe..

- In terms of whether the previous person complained, we have no idea of knowing. The neighbour said she was deaf and the owner of the flat says she passed away.

- We haven't sought legal advice yet because we're broke this month.

Not a disaster all round, and there is progress. Just nothing substantial

[turningpoint199]

And then another update...

The owners of the upstairs flat decided to hold a meeting with us and the other people in order to reach some resolution. Extremely reluctantly we agreed. Despite limited discussion, we reached a conclusion where it was decided the other people would move out in 3/4 months time (clearly don't know how much we can believe that!!) and that represents good progress to me. Instead, they will try and find people who don't make so much noise. It was also explained that pretty much most of the noise only comes from this one person who simply walks/stomps really heavily.

In the end, as long as someone who lives upstairs doesn't stamp or jump then we should be ok. The noise isn't great as the insulation is bad, but light feet make a big difference - in an exponential way.

:)

[turningpoint199]

Our current neighbours who have two noisy young kids that make a crazy amount of noise in the flat above us are thankfully moving next month.

The insulation between the flats is really poor and this has made the last 6 months quite unbearable. To a certain extent the owners of the upstairs flat are sympathetic, but say that if they have to fill the flat with people, as they have previously (who have kids that make life in the flat hell), then they will as it's to pay the mortgage.

We see eventually ourselves getting a false ceiling to eliminate some of the noise. But, really, is there anything we can do except hope that they don't put heavy footed, loud people up there? They are clearly not keen on doing anything to the floors, that would help us due to this cost. Is there anything we can do to sort of force them to sort it out. I'm guessing we can't get them to share the cost of getting the false ceiling?

The only part of our leese which relates to noise is some small portion which says that nuisance noise should be avoided.

Does anyone have any advice? I think the constant stomping and enclosed loud sound and vibrations is bad in terms of health.

Any help much appreciated,

Ben

[Moderator1]

Three threads by the same member have been merged here. Please do not start a new thread if you merely wish to continue a previous discussion or report on subsequent developments. It can cause unnecessary confusion (quite apart from losing the connection with facts previously established or legal points previously explained).

[jeffrey]

Our current neighbours who have two noisy young kids that make a crazy amount of noise in the flat above us are thankfully moving next month.

The insulation between the flats is really poor and this has made the last 6 months quite unbearable. To a certain extent the owners of the upstairs flat are sympathetic, but say that if they have to fill the flat with people, as they have previously (who have kids that make life in the flat hell), then they will as it's to pay the mortgage.

We see eventually ourselves getting a false ceiling to eliminate some of the noise. But, really, is there anything we can do except hope that they don't put heavy footed, loud people up there? They are clearly not keen on doing anything to the floors, that would help us due to this cost. Is there anything we can do to sort of force them to sort it out. I'm guessing we can't get them to share the cost of getting the false ceiling?

The only part of our leese which relates to noise is some small portion which says that nuisance noise should be avoided.

Does anyone have any advice? I think the constant stomping and enclosed loud sound and vibrations is bad in terms of health.
What I posted before still holds good.

[turningpoint199]

Three threads by the same member have been merged here. Please do not start a new thread if you merely wish to continue a previous discussion or report on subsequent developments. It can cause unnecessary confusion (quite apart from losing the connection with facts previously established or legal points previously explained).


Now, I'm confused as to why this has been moved.

The subject has also changed, hence it was started under the appropriate heading "Residential Lettings" as this is to do with letting out of the property, not at all to do with the leese. The leese is mentioned as scarce background information.

I needn't have bothered asking for help if it's all going to be submerged under previous threads, along with 'what I said earlier holds' true comments. The previous comments supports that. What a waste of time. Thanks for nothing.

[jeffrey]

this is to do with letting out of the property, not at all to do with the lease.
I disagree. The problems stem from breach of leasehold covenants, even though the breach is caused by a subtenant.
Almost all of your own posts mention either the lease or the freehold reversioner.

[leaseholdanswers]

if its that bad go and see a solicitor. Jeffreys made some excellent posts, and your time is best spent there.

Go to the land registry website and buy a copy of the upstairs flat lease to see what it sais about flooring and noise.
if your landlord is a big one they may have formal complaint procedure so try that.
You can google Pre-Action Protocol for Housing Disrepair Cases to force the issue.
See if you can get them to agree to LEASE Mediation Service (leaseadvice.org)
Ask the solcitor to ask the freeholder to enforce the covenants in the lease/perhaps the freeholder has not enforced covenants on flooring.

Please do not be offended, some people have very high expectations of their neighbours on noise both in use and tolerance to it. The standard depends in part of an objective one, not a personal one ie "we expect silence", to "we have kids what do you expect?", the building regulations standard, unless pre 1990 or converted before 1992.

Ask a solicitor for initial advice and costs and get builders in to quote for sound insulation.
If your desired outcome is unlikely, the cost of legal action vs insultation makes its own conclusion, then perhaps sound insulation might be the best, and permanent option.