Heating / Heater timers

[icedfusion]

Hi,
We currently let properties out as HMO where we pay all bills. We set the hot water/central heating via a control panel and the timings are not unfair (its what I have at my house). However, the problem is the tenants keep pushing the 'always on' button for the heating - so even when they are at work the heating is on.

Does anyone know of a controller unit that can be locked with a pin at all? How do you cope with this sort of situation?


Cheers

ice.

[HairyLandlord]

Why don't you speak with your tenants to find out why they are overriding the timer settings?

Do you have good relations with them?

I have the same setup as you in one property and the combi boiler has this "always on" setting for the heating.
However, I have advised the tenants not to use this setting as they can forget to turn it off when leaving the house and there are other measures that can be used to ensure they have heating.
Like you, I have the timer set to generous settings, which in my case is 30 mins before the first person comes home in the afternoon the night setting goes off around midnight.
For the morning, it cuts out just after the last person has left for work.

There is also a switch to turn the heating on manually, in the event that someone is at home during the day, etc.

But I also have a clause in my tenancy agreements that allows me to renegotiate the inclusive agreement with each tenant if energy bills reach a level that is considered high for the number of people/appliances in the property, as defined by the energy companies.
I could then offer each tenant a new tenancy agreement, exclusive of energy bills, which would see their living costs increase substantially as currently, the absence of any bills represents a large saving to each of them.

I've never had to refer to that clause or invoke it because I have good tenants and they are as concerned about energy use as I am.
The gas bill is now the highest bill, when it used to be the lowest.

[ah84]

Make a box to go over the timer and put a lock on.

[Rodent1]

Why don't you speak with your tenants to find out why they are overriding the timer settings?

Ans:
1.i was drying my favorite socks, need them to go out tonight!
2. i don't like to come home to a cold house



Do you have good relations with them?

I have the same setup as you in one property and the combi boiler has this "always on" setting for the heating.
However, I have advised the tenants not to use this setting as they can forget to turn it off when leaving the house and there are other measures that can be used to ensure they have heating.
Like you, I have the timer set to generous settings, which in my case is 30 mins before the first person comes home in the afternoon the night setting goes off around midnight.
For the morning, it cuts out just after the last person has left for work.

There is also a switch to turn the heating on manually, in the event that someone is at home during the day, etc.

But I also have a clause in my tenancy agreements that allows me to renegotiate the inclusive agreement with each tenant if energy bills reach a level that is considered high for the number of people/appliances in the property, as defined by the energy companies.
I could then offer each tenant a new tenancy agreement, exclusive of energy bills, which would see their living costs increase substantially as currently, the absence of any bills represents a large saving to each of them.

Which they are hghly unlikey to sign, I would think ?
Prefering the more generous terms of the original contract ?


I've never had to refer to that clause or invoke it because I have good tenants and they are as concerned about energy use as I am.
The gas bill is now the highest bill, when it used to be the lowest.

What do you do with people that works shifts, when mixed with people that works days ?

[jeffrey]

This has been covered before. If the tenants cannot make the boiler go on and off as THEY require (not YOU require) then the boiler effectively is not working. This effectively puts the landlord in breach of their S11 LTA obligations.
I agre. A working-condition heating system that T cannot make work is not s.11-compliant, in my view.

[HairyLandlord]

Which they are hghly unlikey to sign, I would think ?
Prefering the more generous terms of the original contract ?

I explained the terms of the inclusive deal before each tenant agreed to a tenancy.
If I had to invoke my special clause, the current tenants would, of course, be free to not take a new tenancy exclusive of bills and in which case, I would look for new tenants.


What do you do with people that works shifts, when mixed with people that works days ?

Over many years, I've never had any tenants (that I knew of) who worked shifts so I can't answer your question.

[Bel]

How about changing the meter for a card meter. Topping it up once a week for a contracted amount and if they go over then the tenants have to top it up.

[mind the gap]

Or go the whole hog, HL and only turn the heating on when the temperature outside is -10 or below, but buy them all thermal underwear. (The long combis type).

Alternatively, provide an exercise bike for when they feel cold. Soon warm 'em up and it would save you a fortune. You were moaning before about how much the modern tenant expects, so this could be just the solution you need! :D

[HairyLandlord]

Or go the whole hog, HL and only turn the heating on when the temperature outside is -10 or below, but buy them all thermal underwear. (The long combis type).

Alternatively, provide an exercise bike for when they feel cold. Soon warm 'em up and it would save you a fortune. You were moaning before about how much the modern tenant expects, so this could be just the solution you need! :D

Clearly, you have many complex and unresolved issues, but we won't go into these.
But it would be better for you to tone down your clearly abrasive and confrontational persona, as is clear from your copious keyboard tappings, since such attributes are not attractive to most sane people to whom you are directing your verbage to, at the very least.

[Telometer]

But it would be better for you to tone down your clearly abrasive and confrontational persona, as is clear from your copious keyboard tappings, since such attributes are not attractive to most sane people to whom you are directing your verbage to, at the very least.

Ever heard of irony? Actually, I fear not. For whilst one might hope that your plans to force your tenants into a new agreement are a similarly ironic suggestion, I fear they are completely serious - and impossible to achieve.

[HairyLandlord]

Ever heard of irony? Actually, I fear not. For whilst one might hope that your plans to force your tenants into a new agreement are a similarly ironic suggestion, I fear they are completely serious - and impossible to achieve.

MTG is not being ironic - she is being silly, sarcastic and heckling of others on a regular basis and the evidence of this and much more is strewn all over this site.
And also, she does often prefers this kind of engagement with others instead of offering up any real help, as in this thread.

She obviously has something missing, hence her name, but precisely what I am not sure.

Also, I am not forcing anything on my tenants and I don't see how you could come to that deduction.
The tenants were willing to sign my agreement and with the glut of properties out there, they had plenty of choice before they did so.

If you have or had a policy of including energy in rents, are you saying that you are/were willing to accept any level of energy bills out of your pocket?

I don't think offering new tenancy agreements is impossoble to achieve - what would make you think that?
I would lower the rents of course, since the tenants will now have to pay for energy themselves.

Since I know the answer to that is no, I can therefore say to you to stop preaching what is unrealistic and instead of heckling nonsense like a schoolboy from the protection of anonymity, why don't you try to be constructive instead?

[GJMSurrey]

I am going away from your original question, but just to let you know that i'm currently contemplating a clause in my ASTs similar to the below. I have NOT checked the legal aspects yet, and clearly it may be hard to put something tangiable in (what with changing seasonal bills and changing tenants). But just for conversatons sake:

-----------------------------------------
The Landlord will

22.1 Select service providers of gas, electricity, water and sewerage and internet services

22.2 Set up accounts in the Landlord sole name

22.3 Contribute the “Agreed limit” towards the bills of the service providers in 22.1 above during the Term of the tenancy. The agreed limit shall apply only to the usage of gas, electricity, water and sewerage services where during the Term of the Tenancy the Landlords obligation shall be limited to a sum of £****. The sums covered by this clause include standing charges or other similar charges and VAT as well as charges for actual consumption.

22.4 Provide and pay for a broadband (or equivalent) internet connection and a TV licence covering the communal areas, supply wireless router and a freeview ready TV aerial connection.

22.5 Pay for council tax on the property based upon current legislative requirements.

The tenant will

22.6 On demand pay to the Landlord the amount of bills to the extent that they exceed the agreed limit, at an equal proportion caculated upon the number of residents living within the property at the time of the such on demand request.

-------------------------------

Now, in reality I have no intention to charge extra for bills. I just want something in there for my own peace of mind should something extraordinary happen (I mean consistently a hundred pounds+ over reasonable expectations on bill). Indeed, the clause may also help Tenants be more sensible with their energy usage.

[mind the gap]

Clearly, you have many complex and unresolved issues, but we won't go into these.
But it would be better for you to tone down your clearly abrasive and confrontational persona, as is clear from your copious keyboard tappings, since such attributes are not attractive to most sane people to whom you are directing your verbage to, at the very least.

Clearly, you are cultivating the persona of a bumbling, inarticulate, slightly nervy LL with little common sense and a humour bypass - you and the person calling himself 'TenantsLuvMe' would get on like a house on fire.

However, I am sure that underneath this internet image, you are really intelligent, eloquent and knowledgeable, with a fine sense of irony.

Enjoy what's left of your weekend! :)

[mind the gap]

Ho hum. Just spotted this tirade as well.
MTG is not being ironic - she is being silly, sarcastic and heckling of others on a regular basis and the evidence of this and much more is strewn all over this site. Telometer is correct : MTG was being ironic. The fact that you do not understand irony does not alter my intention. That's a little like saying that because you do not understand Russian, the works of Tolstoy are devoid of meaning. (And before you start, no, I am not claiming to be Tolstoy. It was just an analogy).



And also, she does often prefers this kind of engagement with others instead of offering up any real help, as in this thread.

She obviously has something missing, hence her name, but precisely what I am not sure.

That's not very nice. I think you will find that although some of my posts are indeed jokey and ironic, the great majority are helpful. My username was chosen for a number of reasons, including the idea that we all (including me), have gaps in our understanding and knowledge at times, which is the raison d'etre for the forum. There's no law (yet) however which says it is illegal to have fun at the same time as posing or answering questions.



Since I know the answer to that is no, I can therefore say to you to stop preaching what is unrealistic and instead of heckling nonsense like a schoolboy from the protection of anonymity, why don't you try to be constructive instead? So it's not just me that you are venting your indigestion on today (Rennies are good, by the way!). There is no reason to feel threatened by Telometer. He speaks sense.

People have different styles of replying to posts. It is possible that others find your replies unhelpful or inelegant. It takes all sorts. If people find my posts or Telometer's as unhelpful as you imply, I expect they will skip them/ignore them.

[GJMSurrey]

Yeah, I think there are some crossed wires here; there are a lot of helpful posts from MTG and Telo. Actually, Tennantsluvme has taken a lot of time behind the scenes to send me some great advice - been a star.

I got your point HL for simply offering a new revised tennancy as circumstances changed, and then the ball sits with the Tenant to simply accept or depart.

It always makes me smile [ironically, of course] how people read others online. I think MTGs original intentions are now clear though in terms of not being purposely rude :) I heard that MTG actually measures prospective tenants heights and only lets to them if they cannot reach the boiler controls? *hides*

[mind the gap]

It always makes me smile [ironically, of course] how people read others online. I think MTGs original intentions are now clear though in terms of not being purposely rude I heard that MTG actually measures prospective tenants heights and only lets to them if they cannot reach the boiler controls? *hides*

That sounds like a damn good idea...except that my tenants pay for their own energy usage!

[jeffrey]

Solution: sit in armchair all day, watch TV, use only minimal energy.

[jta]

But it would be better for you to tone down your clearly abrasive and confrontational persona, as is clear from your copious keyboard tappings, since such attributes are not attractive to most sane people to whom you are directing your verbage to, at the very least.

Your own words Hairylandlord, which could equally apply to you, you come across as someone who's had a sense of humour bypass, virtually all your posts have had some sort of sideswipe at someone or other.
Try calming down and accept that most of us enjoy the lighthearted humour on this forum. We also learn from each other in many ways. I'm sure you have areas of expertise to pass on as well, but if all you can do is insult other members then I doubt others will read it.

[Rodent1]

Your own words Hairylandlord, which could equally apply to you, you come across as someone who's had a sense of humour bypass, virtually all your posts have had some sort of sideswipe at someone or other.
Try calming down and accept that most of us enjoy the lighthearted humour on this forum. We also learn from each other in many ways. I'm sure you have areas of expertise to pass on as well, but if all you can do is insult other members then I doubt others will read it.

Be fair Jta ...he's got a bit of catching up to do before he is on a par volume wise with the teacher of such:D

[jta]

Be fair Jta

I was being fair. I could have said that I, personally, found his attacks on another member offensive, but I didn't. Maybe he's a refugee from that other website forum where they are always attacking each other. :D

[halfax]

best to fit card meters to each bedroom and an electric heater.
have heating on at reasonable times .
if they want more, they put an electric heater on at their own cost.
done it in 2 himo, recovered cost of installation in first year.

best thing i ever did!

[GJMSurrey]

You mean no central heating in the rooms, just electric? If not, how do you stop the central heating being on 24 hours?

Do you have a link to an example system?

Thanks

[HairyLandlord]

but if all you can do is insult other members then I doubt others will read it.

I have not insulted anyone.
I have been observant and commented on those observations where I see fit.

And also, there is no evidence that of "all you can do"....
You clearly have not spent anytime reading my other posts and are just jumping to a knee-jerk and erroneous conclusion from reading this thread, directed at one particular person, who could also be charged with the same accusation you make to me, but you haven't said anything about them, have you?

[jta]

I have not insulted anyone.

Oh yes you have!



one particular person, who could also be charged with the same accusation you make to me, but you haven't said anything about them, have you?

No I haven't, and that's for the very good reason that I can recognise irony and humour, which you seem unable to do, furthermore, I respond in the same way. You write like a permanently angry man. Why take offence at innocent remarks where no offence is intended? It would be far better to enter into the spirit of this forum which combines good advice and good humour for all landlords, tenants and agents impartially.

Merry Christmas from me, but if you say "Bah! Humbug!" I will quite understand.

[HairyLandlord]

Oh yes you have!

Ohhh no I didn't.

[HairyLandlord]

I can recognise irony and humour.

Really? I see no evidence of it.
But in any event, this is not the issue at hand.

You are melding unrelated matters.

[jta]

Ohhh no I didn't.

Oh yes you did, didn't he children?




You are melding unrelated matters.

Is that the Vulcan mind meld you're talking about?

[jeffrey]

Really? I see no evidence of it.
But in any event, this is not the issue at hand.

You are melding unrelated matters.
'Meld' does not mean 'merge' or 'confuse'.
See 'The Times a couple of days ago.

[GJMSurrey]

Ohhh no I didn't.

Made me giggle

[mind the gap]

Made me giggle

Crikey, don't tell him that! He'll bash your brains out with his caveman's club :eek:

[jeffrey]

Only if he's joined that club. Or if there ever were these mythical 'cavemen'.

[Bel]

best to fit card meters to each bedroom and an electric heater.
have heating on at reasonable times .
if they want more, they put an electric heater on at their own cost.
done it in 2 himo, recovered cost of installation in first year.

best thing i ever did!

OK but cant they just put an extension cable on the communal socket to heat their own room for free?

[Rodent1]

OK but cant they just put an extension cable on the communal socket to heat their own room for free?

Lockable socket covers or mount them in a locked cupboard.

Just for fun run 1 socket from each room in a single row in the communal room, clearly label them - then let T decide whoose socket get used for TV / lamp etc :D

[Bel]

Lockable socket covers or mount them in a locked cupboard.



So if all the tenants have access to communal lounge with TV, you can lock a socket with the TV plug in it?

Come to think of it, is it ok 'electrical safety wise'' to hard wire a TV, a toaster, or any other appliance (as you might with a dishwasher) ?

[Rodent1]

So if all the tenants have access to communal lounge with TV, you can lock a socket with the TV plug in it?

Come to think of it, is it ok 'electrical safety wise'' to hard wire a TV, a toaster, or any other appliance (as you might with a dishwasher) ?


Yep !

http://www.pluglock.co.uk/

Or just build a surround and padlock it.


Better to run it off a T room circuit tho !
Or as i said a room of sockets each with lockable covers (one of each room circuit) and let them argue over whose socket get used !

Then you need to start looking at bayonet locks ...bacause some bright spark will plug the TV in the light bayonet at LL cost , A TV would prob be okay but Electric fires could cause a problem !!!!!!!!:D

[Bel]

Yep !

http://www.pluglock.co.uk/

Or just build a surround and padlock it.


Better to run it off a T room circuit tho !
Or as i said a room of sockets each with lockable covers (one of each room circuit) and let them argue over whose socket get used !

Then you need to start looking at bayonet locks ...bacause some bright spark will plug the TV in the light bayonet at LL cost , A TV would prob be okay but Electric fires could cause a problem !!!!!!!!:D

Good link Rodent

How about a link for a bayonet lock?

Also, in this dream scenario of each tenant having their own electric for heat, light etc, how will the communal areas be heated most economically ie settings and stopping the tenants altering them?

Are their no heating programmers that cannot be over ridden but still provide an hours boost facility, for example.

Re-reading Halifax's post, it seems that his rooms do have rads, and the electric heater is for top-ups only. Do you think that electric should/could provide all the tenant's room heat?

[Rodent1]

Good link Rodent

How about a link for a bayonet lock?

If a T is determined to access power then they will find a way !

If you could lock a bayonet fitting then you would have to leave a way for them to change the bulb or you will be going round to do it !

BUT.. I have all lighting on occupancy sensors (hall, stairs landings, bathrooms), the only 2 points that would be of use to T are Lounge and Kitchen - A lot of my Kitchens have Flourescent tubes -so that makes it quite hard to use! A lot of my Lounges have GU10 LE spots so that makes them pretty much inaccessible !

I guess you could plug an extension lead into a "locked socket" with a 3A cut out - so they cn use lap tops computers etc but not power sucking devices into it (heaters etc)

The TV / Lounge is not the problem area, the kitchen is, as you must leave adequate sockets for kettle, toaster, micro wave etc ...an extension lead could easily be plugged in here....





Also, in this dream scenario of each tenant having their own electric for heat, light etc, how will the communal areas be heated most economically ie settings and stopping the tenants altering them?

Are their no heating programmers that cannot be over ridden but still provide an hours boost facility, for example.

Re-reading Halifax's post, it seems that his rooms do have rads, and the electric heater is for top-ups only. Do you think that electric should/could provide all the tenant's room heat?

If T is paying their own electricity bill then they will control the use of heating if electric - but which ever way you come about it - this is expensive heating for someone!

A simple lockable metal cover over heating controller with a hole strategically cut to allow access to press +1 hr boost is pretty straight forward to sort out.

[Gez]

Have you considered using a programmable thermostat ?

Normally you have a timer (that tells the boiler when heat can be made available) and a thermostat that will call for heat if the temperature is below the level set on the dial.

With a programmable thermostat, you can leave your normal timer set as always on, but you programme the thermostat to be at different temperatures during the day.

So you might set it to be say 15 degrees overnight from 11pm until 6 am and then have it at say 21 degrees from 6 to 8:30am and then 19 degrees during the day - maybe going up again to 21 at lunch - and then 19 during the afternoon and then have it set for 20 plus from 5pm to 11pm.

Alll of these times and temperatures are variable. It means you can profile the temperature and times in your house to all for shft workers :)and across all 7 days.

The boiler only gives heat when the temperature falls below what you have set as a profile.

This also deals with the issue of tenants playing around with the thermostat.

The front panel of the programmer is also lockable on some models (the Drayton +3 springs to mind).

These units are straight swaps for existing thermostats.

Hope this helps.

Gez